End the death penalty

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poikilotrm
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End the death penalty

Post by poikilotrm »

This article is why we should end it. Lying jackass cops.

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015 ... onvictions

North Carolina brothers to receive $750,000 each for wrongful convictions

Henry McCollum and half-brother Leon Brown were wrongfully convicted in the killing of an 11-year-old girl in 1983 before being released last September.

Associated Press in Raleigh, North Carolina
Wednesday 2 September 2015 12.28 EDT

Two North Carolina brothers were awarded $750,000 each in compensation on Wednesday, for the three decades they were wrongfully imprisoned in the killing of an 11-year-old girl.

Henry McCollum and Leon Brown have been cleared in North Carolina after decades in prison. Attention now turns to the initial investigation that put two teenagers away

Henry McCollum, 51, appeared calm as a North Carolina commission formally awarded the money to him and half-brother Leon Brown, 47, during a hearing. Brown is in the hospital, suffering from health problems including post-traumatic stress disorder, the brothers’ lawyer said, and he did not attend.

McCollum and Brown were released last September after a judge threw out their convictions, citing new DNA evidence that points to another man in the 1983 rape and killing of Sabrina Buie. McCollum had been the longest-serving inmate on North Carolina’s death row. Brown had been sentenced to life in prison.

McCollum, who has been living with his sister, said he is happy the money will enable him to support himself and help his family.

“My family, they have struggled for years and years,” he said. “It’s hard out there for them, and I want to help them.”

The governor pardoned the brothers in June, a step that made each eligible to receive $50,000 from the state for every year spent in prison, with a limit of $750,000. They can also receive educational benefits from the state.

Their attorney said the money will be put in a trust and invested so that the brothers can live off the earnings and won’t have to work.

In the months since their release, both men have had trouble adjusting to the outside world after spending most of their adult lives in prison. Money has been a problem, but McCollum has said the most important part of the pardon was having his name cleared.

McCollum listed some of the things he enjoys about freedom: “Being out here, to be able to breathe the air. To be able to walk around as a free man. To be able to walk down that street with my head up high.”

Sabrina’s body was found in a soybean field in rural Robeson County, cigarette butts, a beer can and two bloody sticks nearby. Defense attorneys have said the brothers were scared teenagers with low IQs when they were questioned by police and coerced into confessing. McCollum was 19, Brown 15.

The DNA from the cigarettes didn’t match Brown or McCollum, and fingerprints on the beer can weren’t theirs either. No physical evidence connects them to the crime, a prosecutor acknowledged last year.

Both men were initially given death sentences. In 1988, the state supreme court threw out their convictions and ordered new trials. McCollum was again sent to death row, while Brown was convicted of rape and sentenced to life.

The men’s sister, Geraldine Brown, said that she is happy for her brothers but that the pardon and compensation are bittersweet, considering that Leon Brown is “really sick” from his time in prison. She said he suffers mental problems including PTSD as well as diabetes.

“He did not go in that way,” she said. “They snatched him from my mother as a baby.”

Megaro sued Robeson County, the town where the killing happened, the sheriff and others on Monday in federal court on behalf of the men. The lawsuit said the men’s civil rights were violated and seeks unspecified damages.
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Syntax360
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Re: End the death penalty

Post by Syntax360 »

I absolutely agree with the death penalty on principle, but things like this further strengthen my believe that government cannot be entrusted with the the power.
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ick
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Re: End the death penalty

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Strange, the article mentions that the cigarette DNA and fingerprints aren't a match. Make sense to bring that up. What about the rape charge? It seems unusual to me that the one was convicted of rape, was this evidence also overturned? Perhaps the rape verdict stands? It seems odd, like either the reporter didn't think it was important or simply didn't want to bring it up?

They kept the cigarette butts all this time, apparently. Was there a rape kit kept in those days? Perhaps there never was a question on the rape charge, just the murder?

So one of them, beyond a reasonable doubt, raped this little girl? ...they just didn't have enough evidence for the murder? What gives?
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Re: End the death penalty

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ick wrote:Strange, the article mentions that the cigarette DNA and fingerprints aren't a match. Make sense to bring that up. What about the rape charge? It seems unusual to me that the one was convicted of rape, was this evidence also overturned? Perhaps the rape verdict stands? It seems odd, like either the reporter didn't think it was important or simply didn't want to bring it up?

They kept the cigarette butts all this time, apparently. Was there a rape kit kept in those days? Perhaps there never was a question on the rape charge, just the murder?

So one of them, beyond a reasonable doubt, raped this little girl? ...they just didn't have enough evidence for the murder? What gives?
I know it is your nature to bend over backwards to explain away the criminal acts of cops as being righteous, but there was no evidence to link the men to the murder. There was evidence that linked someone else.

Jon Burge should have been hung in public for what he did, as should his accomplices. They weren't the good guys, ick, and they weren't heroes.
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YugoRPK
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Re: End the death penalty

Post by YugoRPK »

I agree with the death penalty as long as it means dragging them out behind the courthouse for a waiting firing squad or hangman. Unfortunately it doesnt mean that any more. Don't get me wrong. I'd empty the prisons into the gallows if it were my choice. Paying millions of dollars in appeals to execute someone after 20 years or so has made a mockery of the system and just costs me money, more money than it would cost to lock someone up for the rest of their life. A lot more.
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Re: End the death penalty

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You don't object to innocents being murdered, you object to their murders being so expensive and taking so long? Wow.
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ick
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Re: End the death penalty

Post by ick »

poikilotrm wrote:
ick wrote:Strange, the article mentions that the cigarette DNA and fingerprints aren't a match. Make sense to bring that up. What about the rape charge? It seems unusual to me that the one was convicted of rape, was this evidence also overturned? Perhaps the rape verdict stands? It seems odd, like either the reporter didn't think it was important or simply didn't want to bring it up?

They kept the cigarette butts all this time, apparently. Was there a rape kit kept in those days? Perhaps there never was a question on the rape charge, just the murder?

So one of them, beyond a reasonable doubt, raped this little girl? ...they just didn't have enough evidence for the murder? What gives?
I know it is your nature to bend over backwards to explain away the criminal acts of cops as being righteous, but there was no evidence to link the men to the murder. There was evidence that linked someone else.

Jon Burge should have been hung in public for what he did, as should his accomplices. They weren't the good guys, ick, and they weren't heroes.
I see you are unable to ponder questions of evidence with your pig-colored glasses on when it doesn't suit your bigotry. I guess I can't ask you a question like that about facts. My mistake.
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Re: End the death penalty

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ick wrote:
I see you are unable to ponder questions of evidence with your pig-colored glasses on when it doesn't suit your bigotry. I guess I can't ask you a question like that about facts. My mistake.
You were attempting to find some way to excuse the cops. You weren't asking real questions. Your s--t is weak, just like always.
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Re: End the death penalty

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I can find no evidence about rape kit results back in the 80s tying these two to the rape.... nor was anything analyzed in this most recent court process tied to the rape allegations.

No sense asking a reasonable question and seeking answers, your bigotry must continue unabated at all costs.

I miss hush. He may have posted a lot but at least he wasn't a bigoted idiot blinded by hate.
Last edited by ick on Fri Sep 04, 2015 1:42 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: End the death penalty

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ick wrote: No sense asking a reasonable question and seeking answers, your bigotry must continue unabated at all costs.
Your sycophantic slavishness is as repulsive as always.
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Re: End the death penalty

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ick wrote:I can find no evidence about rape kit results back in the 80s tying these two to the rape.... nor was anything analyzed in this most recent court process tied to the rape allegations.

No sense asking a reasonable question and seeking answers, your bigotry must continue unabated at all costs.

I miss hush. He may have posted a lot but at least he wasn't a bigoted idiot blinded by hate.
+1 on all counts

And the death penalty reaps an ROI over time cutting down on repeat offenses.
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Re: End the death penalty

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doubloon wrote: And the death penalty reaps an ROI over time cutting down on repeat offenses.
Let's see your data.
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doubloon
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Re: End the death penalty

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You don't answer questions with facts so piss off.

But homicide and rape are among the lowest repeat offenders percentage-wise so we need to expand the death penalty a little I think. Maybe include repeat offenders for lesser offenses or first timers for some lesser offenses with no legal means of income that contributes to the financial good of the country.

http://www.crimeinamerica.net/2010/09/2 ... rceration/

Snuffing first timers cuts down 100% on repeat offenses.
Those with the lowest rearrest rates were former inmates who had been in prison for homicide (41 percent), sexual assault (41 percent), rape (46 percent) or driving under the influence of drugs or alcohol (51 percent).
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Re: End the death penalty

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poikilotrm wrote:You don't object to innocents being murdered, you object to their murders being so expensive and taking so long? Wow.
Yep. That sums it up pretty good. They get the wrong guys sometimes. s--t happens. We ( OK North Carolina citizens) wasted 32 years worth of food and lodging on those guys. No jail sentence should be more than 5 years. If the crime warrants more than a 5 year sentence it should result in an immediate execution.
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Re: End the death penalty

Post by BadKarmaZeroSix »

Come to work with me as a CO for a couple weeks before preaching about how the death penalty should be used less. I, for one, would feel better releasing many of these social cancers directly into a wood chipper rather than into a community. But you should definitely make your decision based on some article you read once.
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TROOPER
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Re: End the death penalty

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What about a cost-benefit analysis? The amount of money required to execute someone versus the amount of money required to lock them up until they die of natural age.... it just doesn't add up. There's also the possibility that they may be innocent, and exculpatory evidence is ineffective on a person that is dead.

Now keep in mind, I'm speaking from the stance of a fiduciary: the idea that the government should be as thrifty as possible. To that end, my world is no different if I never see a multiple-count murderer again because he's dead, OR, because he's still behind bars. Functionally, there's no difference. But I do see a difference in regards to government spending on one of those routes versus the other.

Mind you, I'm operating on very, very old data to make the claim of financial costs of incarceration vice execution, so if things have changed, them I'm willing to be convinced otherwise. But setting aside morals and ethics, what are your thoughts this?
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Re: End the death penalty

Post by n.franklin »

For every horror story there are a hundred or more happy ones, heres the latest from my state...

http://www.newsmax.com/TheWire/Missouri ... id/673331/

I say make it cheaper, limit the appeals process to 2 years or less, and upgrade the method to a 9mm cartridge to the base of the spine provided from the lowest bidder.
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Re: End the death penalty

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That link actually makes a case AGAINST the death penalty. Not because he was obviously innocent, but because the cost of executing him was increased dramatically due to the legal processes wending their way through multiple courts, attorneys, judges, dockets, stenographers, and bailiffs over a 25 year period.

I contend that had the death penalty been replaced with a stay-in-prison-till-death sentence, that the number of appeals and corresponding costs would have been dramatically reduced. What would he have gotten, just one appeal? Would he even have gotten that one appeal given that he had confessed in court?

Inarguably, once a convict has been executed, they have a zero percent recidivism rate, but beyond that I sincerely question any stats that definitely show that states that have death penalties are somehow safer than those that do not as a result of that death penalty. I think even when the stats do show that pro-death penalty states have a lower capital crime rate, that this has more to do with a different culture of prosecuting crime as opposed to the presence of the death penalty itself. I just can't imagine some would-be criminal NOT committing a crime out of fear of capital punishment. I believe they just always think that they'll get away with it, and not that they won't receive too harsh a penalty.
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Re: End the death penalty

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TROOPER wrote:What about a cost-benefit analysis? The amount of money required to execute someone versus the amount of money required to lock them up until they die of natural age.... it just doesn't add up. ...
According to this article it's about $1500/dose as of 2014, up from $350/dose the previous years.
http://www.dallasnews.com/news/state/he ... risons.ece

The only places I've ever seen that publish any data about the cost of the death penalty vs the cost of life imprisonment are the biased places that want to abolish the death penalty and there is never any real data. They all make unsupported claims that execution is 3X, 4X or 5X the cost of life imprisonment.

And the sad part is even if their numbers were right they'd still be wrong because they are only looking at the costs directly attributed to the care of the wart on humanity.

They are not taking into account the financial burden inflicted on survivors for treatment/therapy and they are not averaging in the cumulative costs of repeat offenses by released living sh!t that shouldn't even be breathing much less let loose on a technicality, probation or a pardon.

Look at all the fact, gather up all the costs and even if it's less than a break even it's still worth it so someone you know doesn't have to be a victim of a repeat offender let out on some trumped up inhumanity bullshit.
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Re: End the death penalty

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TROOPER wrote:... because the cost of executing him was increased dramatically due to the legal processes wending their way through multiple courts, attorneys, judges, dockets, stenographers, and bailiffs over a 25 year period.
...
He confessed ... give him 24 hours or until noon the next business day and put him down. Instant savings.
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Re: End the death penalty

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It's easy to look at JUST the cost of the lethal injection, but in reality, it's the entire process. That guy was on death row for 25 years, and all the while, paperwork was going from court to court to court as his case was essentially re-tried again and again. That only happened because death penalties are granted an automatic appeal. This wouldn't have happened if he'd been sentenced to life + 50.

And I still stand by the theory that few criminals view the cost of committing the crime through the lens of whether or not they'll go to prison until they die versus going to prison to be killed.
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Re: End the death penalty

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It wouldn't happen if he had 24 hours to say his goodbyes with no appeal.

Screw the appeal.

The death penalty (carried out) deters repeats. I'm not trying to argue the death penalty as a deterrent for .first timers.

How is LWOP and without appeal more humane for the innocent?

25 years on death row isn't humane either, reduce it to 25 hours.
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Re: End the death penalty

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doubloon wrote:How is LWOP and without appeal more humane for the innocent?
It isn't. It's just less expensive. The whole thrust of my point is that scumbag-off-the-street is accomplished whether he's never getting out of a jail-cell or never getting out of a coffin. In addition, sometimes it takes a long time for science to catch up, or some other form of exculpatory evidence to come to light. You can't pardon the dead.

It's easy to say "get rid of appeals", but that's just not reality. The system is evolved into that direction for a reason, and all the forces that bent it into that direction over time are still present and prevalent. It would go back to being an 'automatic appeal' situation if it were revoked.

Part of the problem with automatic appeals for death penalties is that it ties up current courts too. Think how many people spend an extra day or two or week or two in jail before trial, simply because the courts are clogged re-trying the cases of the confessed. Just because that dude admitted it doesn't mean his lawyer isn't going to pursue any-and-all legal means to get the guy out.

Now I'm not arguing against the death penalty for capital offenses, I'm merely pointing out how dysfunctional the pursuit of that cause is. Or look at it this way: a kid shouldn't steal bubble gum. But how far are you going to pursue him in order to enforce that law? Let's assume 6-year-old Johnny pockets 25¢ of candy (+ tax) while his parents are on a road-trip. The theft is discovered later as the manager, for no good reason, reviews that day's surveillance video tapes. He then pulls up the vehicle's license plate, gives it to LEO, who then track-and-transfer this over 5 states and 600 miles. At some point, the cost of bringing in the FBI in order to execute an interstate arrest is brought up, and a hundred man-hours and that times three in fuel-dollars are lost pursuing this.

At what point should any government official have said, "I know what we should do morally... I know what we should do ethically... and I know what we should do legally... but we're literally spending a few thousand to recoup 25¢."

I don't know what the answer is, or who would put the kibosh on that scenario. But part of the government's responsibility is a fiduciary role to its citizens, and the above example does not balance two conflicting roles appropriately.

I can't stress this point enough: I don't condone scumbags. But as it is, the pursuit of justice is causing undue harm to the citizenry which is supposed to be protected... and I don't see any way to alter that under the current judicial system. Specifically, it isn't going to get faster or more efficient. Therefore, I say we avoid the mess by putting scumbag in prison indefinitely if it ends up costing less to do so.
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Re: End the death penalty

Post by cal50 »

IMHO there are two categories of crimes : Violent and NON-violent.

Non-violent should be the house arrest and work their asses off for the penalty.
Violent should be incarcerated ( with minimums ) and for certain crimes as rape , child molestation , attempted murder of police death is fitting.

Plug in your zip code and look at the various registered sex offender and just wait for the repeat offender and act surprised.
As to cops being dishonest if they choose to go that way and get caught they should receive the penalty.
I trust the cops far more than violent criminals but no one is perfect.
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Re: End the death penalty

Post by n.franklin »

doubloon wrote:
TROOPER wrote:... because the cost of executing him was increased dramatically due to the legal processes wending their way through multiple courts, attorneys, judges, dockets, stenographers, and bailiffs over a 25 year period.
...
He confessed ... give him 24 hours or until noon the next business day and put him down. Instant savings.
Saddam Hussein was given 60 days for appeals before he swung like a wind chime, why should anyone else deserve more?
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