When to shoot in defense of property

[johndoe3]

http://dailycaller.com/2016/12/23/ccw-w ... -property/

An excellent discussion of when to shoot in regards to taking of property. The author breaks it down to 3 categories...

1. robbery--use of force to take property

2. burglary--breaking in to take property

3. theft--attempted clandestine taking of property without use of force (shoplifting)

Helpfully, the article brings into play the Castle Doctrine and Stand Your Ground, along with a mention of the Texas law on use of force in defense of property. It's the #3 category above which gets gunowners in trouble over use of a gun, while #1 is almost always justifiable self-defense.

What about burglary?

[klapa]

http://dailycaller.com/2016/12/23/ccw-w ... -property/

An excellent discussion of when to shoot in regards to taking of property. The author breaks it down to 3 categories...

1. robbery--use of force to take property

2. burglary--breaking in to take property

3. theft--attempted clandestine taking of property without use of force (shoplifting)

Helpfully, the article brings into play the Castle Doctrine and Stand Your Ground, along with a mention of the Texas law on use of force in defense of property. It's the #3 category above which gets gunowners in trouble over use of a gun, while #1 is almost always justifiable self-defense.

What about burglary?

Yea - I just went through this in my CHP (concealed handgun permit) class here in NC at the end of October, and the conclusions there were basically the same:

Unless you or someone else has some GOOD reason to believe your (or their) LIFE IS IN IMMINENT DANGER you cannot shoot them.

Some discussion here revealed that specifically loss of property IS NOT a valid reason to shoot somebody.

I did recently have a discussion with somebody from Texas on another board and it does seem that the law is a bit looser there. The specific example was that if I ran out in my yard and saw somebody about to drive off with my property I could NOT shoot them here in NC (actually - I MAY not shoot them), but the guy in Texas said one could there with no legal repercussions.

[doubloon]

Shoots during burglary in defense of property alone have been upheld here in Texas and not just for one's own property. Obviously the John Horn case is the most famous.

A civilian shooting someone who poses no imminent threat to life is always going to be controversial. Especially so when there were (arm chair) obvious non-violent alternative actions available and the property loss was not economically crippling.

I may not always agree with someone's choice to shoot a burglar but my opinion doesn't mean much.

[TROOPER]

I always figured that a burglar has something to lose, and has already been shown to be a criminal. The problem is less that he's stealing your property than that he's INSIDE your property. Legally, it may not be a home invasion (if there's even a legal definition of that), but philosophically, he trespassed with the intent to break the law. Why are you waiting to see what laws he intends to break, and how much he means to avoid arrest and prison?

---- ETA ----
I only added "trespass-with-intent" to differentiate between some kid simply cutting through your yard because you happen to live in the corner house. That's just trespass for the sake of trespass... if that.

[doubloon]

...
---- ETA ----
I only added "trespass-with-intent" to differentiate between some kid simply cutting through your yard because you happen to live in the corner house. That's just trespass for the sake of trespass... if that.

Depending on where you live perhaps and the demarcation of your property there may be no legal trespass by someone cutting through your yard.

If you live in suburbia and have no fence for example.

[T-Rex]

I'm in agreement w/ Trooper's line of thinking.
Someone violated (can be read as entered or occupied) my area (my property line, my home, my car, etc) for an intent which is unknown to me (the protector of his property and family).
Does me not knowing all they were going to do was take my car for a joyride make any difference? I think not.
They made the conscious decision to break the law (they know what they were doing was illegal) so why can't I defend what's mine? With any force (not means) necessary (to me, not a jury) to protect what's mine.

What about the psychological effect being a victim of a crime has on people? While having to kill another person is not the easiest thing to do, or live with, it's far better than knowing you're helpless. (Don't worry, ma'am, the police are on their way )

Of course, there's always a determining line (usually reserved for outside viewers).

[doubloon]

I'm in agreement w/ Trooper's line of thinking.
...

Neither of you would be convicted by my jury.

[0101silent]

--

[TROOPER]

...
---- ETA ----
I only added "trespass-with-intent" to differentiate between some kid simply cutting through your yard because you happen to live in the corner house. That's just trespass for the sake of trespass... if that.

Depending on where you live perhaps and the demarcation of your property there may be no legal trespass by someone cutting through your yard.

If you live in suburbia and have no fence for example.

Fair enough. Didn't take the time to Google the specifics, although we'll probably both agree that regardless of how annoying that can be, it'd take a real arse to make that a violent thing -- even if the law allowed for it.

[whiterussian1974]

In TX "preventing the IMMEDIATE Consequences of Theft" is the Key Phrase.

A shop owner can gun a shoplifter down once they leave the Store, but shouldn't once they leave the Parking Lot. A Homeowner can as long as they're in "hot Pursuit" meaning you can't wait til the next day and then shoot him at the carwash. But you CAN follow him to his house and shoot him.

There are "gray areas" and Case Law comes into play as well as the Presiding Judge and County. But there are plenty of recent cases of Neighbors seeing someone steal a TV from next door and killing the Thief. (Defense of 3rd Person Property.) Same w "Criminal Trespass" if they were in the Neighbors' House and left empty-handed, but then entered YOUR yard. (Criminal Mischief or Criminal Trespass during commission of a Felony.)
---
The Main Object: learn the Laws of YOUR state and how they are worded and enforced. It could make 20+ yrs of difference, or at least 10k$ to an Attorney.

[doubloon]

In TX ...

http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/S ... m/PE.9.htm