Many gunowners say 4th Amendment just died--not so fast

[johndoe3]

http://legalinsurrection.com/2017/01/u- ... amendment/

Noted self-defense lawyer, Andrew Branca, does an excellent job above in analyzing the U.S. vs Robinson case, where an en-banc panel in the 4th Circuit Court of Appeals might appear to have expanded police Terry Stop powers against concealed carry gunowners.

Branca notes:
1. bad cases tend to make bad law

2. the 4th Amendment is a right against unreasonable search and seizure, not an absolute right against any search and seizure.

Excellent article, well worth reading.

What say you, is the internet chatter among gunowners about loss of 4th amendment rights for concealed carriers overblown?

[doubloon]

I haven't personally experienced or witnessed any transgressions on the 4th where concealed carriers are concerned.

I'm not saying it doesn't happen but assuming the facts are correct in the case you linked it seems like an open an shut case of play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

[BlogSarge]

So. A known felon, in a known high-crime/drug area, is knowingly flashing a pistol in piblic view, which he is knowningly carrying unlawfully, and then he knowingly is evasive/passively resistant.....

So, where is this an unreasonable seizure?

I'm with doubloon, the guy was asking for it.

[poikilotrm]

I haven't personally experienced or witnessed any transgressions on the 4th where concealed carriers are concerned.

I have. Big time.

I'm not saying it doesn't happen but assuming the facts are correct in the case you linked it seems like an open an shut case of play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

All it takes is one crooked cop. In my case, there were about 20 initially, and a bunch of other scumbags helped after the initial law breaking.

[a_canadian]

poikilotrm; You've frequently alluded to this incident. Perhaps you ought to put a link to where you've detailed the events in your signature, such that when you do mention it in some other context people are able to review those facts? I for one am quite curious. My own interactions with police are a mixed bag, some decent-seeming folk, others who really don't seem to give a rat's ass about me or anyone not in their particular costume. The negative experiences have been slightly fewer than the positive over the past 50 years or so, but enough that I've been left with a general distrust of police. Nothing too serious has happened to me at police hands such as you're indicating here and there, but bad enough to call it very rude behaviour I'd say. If course I've not given them cause to get more abusive than just rudeness and mild abuse of authority... I've been careful not to try and win too many arguments with police, as those arguments tend to favour the guy with the gun.

[doubloon]

He won't, or can't.

[a_canadian]

Oh. Lawyer stuff eh? That sucks. Sorry to hear it Pokie.

[doubloon]

Reality stuff.

[poikilotrm]

He won't, or can't.

Since I have, repeatedly, "can't" ain't in the cards.

[poikilotrm]

Oh. Lawyer stuff eh? That sucks. Sorry to hear it Pokie.

I don't know what that means. It is over and done. I am proud that I was the reason the Sheriff didn't get re-elected. I guess the guy with the gun doesn't always win, eh buddy?

[whiterussian1974]

He won't, or can't.

Since I have, repeatedly, "can't" ain't in the cards.

Poik has repeatedly posted News Articles and Court Decisions links to his Case and the Crooked Coppers who Unlawfully: Arrested, Detained, Abducted him; and violated multiple of his Constitutional and Civil Rights by searching through his Home w/o Warrant or Court Notification. (Even though they showed no Cause that Evidence would be destroyed.) The CLEO even admitted in Open Court that CLEO illegally manufactured a Suppressor/SBR in Violation of NFA in order to render Poiki's collection no longer lawful.

Yet, the LEOs suffered no Criminal Action against themselves for their lawbreaking. Just lost the Civil Tort. They didn't even follow the Court Order to return his Lawful Property. Just sat on it and Court never issued Bench Warrant for their Arrests. They simply didn't comply w the Judge's Order for Enforcement.
---
I think that Canadian's "Lawyer Stuff" remark was that perhaps there was a Gag Order issued, or Settlement involving non-disclosure of Terms/Info.

[a_canadian]

I think that Canadian's "Lawyer Stuff" remark was that perhaps there was a Gag Order issued, or Settlement involving non-disclosure of Terms/Info.

Exactly right, that was my intention, nothing more. As for the stuff that happened to him... that's just disgusting and shameful. Again police getting away with being the bad guys. Not surprised, just disappointed to see it happen again and again.

[poikilotrm]

Same crew just did almost the exact same thing to a friend about two months ago. They took $26K in cash and a few of his cooler guns. Good men just trying to do a hard job...

[TROOPER]

Same crew just did almost the exact same thing to a friend about two months ago. They took $26K in cash and a few of his cooler guns. Good men just trying to do a hard job...

Have you thought about pursuing the matter further? If so, how? Maybe hire a lawyer? Could you re-visit the original judge whose order was ignored?

Part of me thinks 'let sleeping dogs lie'. Another part of says otherwise. You don't seem like a "back-down" type, so do you have any future plans on this matter?

[poikilotrm]

Have you thought about pursuing the matter further? If so, how? Maybe hire a lawyer? Could you re-visit the original judge whose order was ignored?

Part of me thinks 'let sleeping dogs lie'. Another part of says otherwise. You don't seem like a "back-down" type, so do you have any future plans on this matter?

I left Georgia in 2013. They can fix their own problems. They have shown no desire to do so. As far as continuing to pursue it, it was taken as far as the courts would allow.

When we won, my lawyer said something to the effect of "See? The system works!" I told him that if the system worked there would be FBI agents standing there with arrest warrants at the end of the civil trial. If the system worked, the Georgia AG would be fighting with the AUSA to get the opportunity to try those fuckers. If the system worked, the incident never would have happened in the first place.

[TROOPER]

Fair enough.

Where you live now... different cop mentality?

[poikilotrm]

Fair enough.

Where you live now... different cop mentality?

Yes. Vastly better. While I was in ND it was much, much better, and my new place is even better than that. Fewer cops = less scumbaggery.

BTW, while I was furloughed from my real job, I moved back to New Orleans. I spent ten months there. The NOPD's rep is finally bearing fruit. Nobody wants to work for them. They are at 45% strength and dying. The slick sleeves have received guidance that they are to ignore anything but actual crimes. As a result, the quality of life in NO is better than it has ever been.

[TROOPER]

Where you live now... different cop mentality?

Yes. Vastly better. While I was in ND it was much, much better, and my new place is even better than that. Fewer cops = less scumbaggery.

Why do you theorize that this is the case? Also, do you think you dealt with a bad bunch in a portion of Georgia, or that something about the state of Georgia itself fostered the environment that you dealt with? Meaning, could you have just moved within the state of Georgia and potentially gotten the mentality of LEO that you're seeing now in ND?

BTW, while I was furloughed from my real job, I moved back to New Orleans. I spent ten months there. The NOPD's rep is finally bearing fruit. Nobody wants to work for them. They are at 45% strength and dying. The slick sleeves have received guidance that they are to ignore anything but actual crimes. As a result, the quality of life in NO is better than it has ever been.

I've never been to - or even passed through - NO. When the opportunity comes up, I exit I-10, get on I-12, then get back on I-10 on the other side of NO... not for any reason other than convenience. I mention this so you know I'm not arguing from a stance of experience.

That said, I'm to understand from reading on the internet that NO's problems are much more severe and diverse than simply a bad police department. Meaning, just because the police are acting within the confines of the law, doesn't mean the area is good or safe. The murder rate per capita is a true outlier relative to the national stat, and actively works to lower our national average. Worse, the homicide solve-rate is beyond pathetic.

To what extent do you see police misconduct tied to population-generated crime? Does one drive the other? Which is the dependent variable? Do you believe that cleaning up the police department will positively influence general crime rates beyond the numerical reduction in police-committed crimes? Do you think it's possible that the quality of the police force is reflective of the quality of the population that it draws off of?

Not meant to be a defense of LEO misconduct, just questions from someone who is interested in the topic, but lacks the insight that would have been gained from personal experience. Meaning, I want to understand the situation, but I'm unable/unwilling to go live there just to satisfy that curiosity.

[poikilotrm]

Why do you theorize that this is the case? Also, do you think you dealt with a bad bunch in a portion of Georgia, or that something about the state of Georgia itself fostered the environment that you dealt with?

The underlying problems with Georgia law enforcement are multi-faceted. The war on drugs-that- politicians-generally-don't-do leads to a great deal of criminal and deeply immoral behavior on the parts of cops throughout the US, which is what we saw with alcohol prohibition.

Then there is the fact that Georgia has a bunch of tiny counties. Each county has a sheriff. Each sheriff wants to have a jail and significant number of deputies. A bunch of cops with nothing to do leads to a lot of problems. Little Lumpkin county, where I was, had TRIPLE the LE density of any major metropolitan area in the US. Why does a sleepy, well educated, racially homogenous, mostly employed bedroom/agricultural community need more cops per person than Chicago? It doesn't. It is just kingdom building for self-aggrandizement.

Then there are local cultural attitudes, historical inertia, qualified immunity, the hiring pool, the pressure towards civil asset forfeiture, and socio-economics, and zeitgeist, and a bunch of other factors at play.

Georgia's corruption problem could be solved by coup and reorganization, and that is pretty much the only way to do it.

Meaning, could you have just moved within the state of Georgia and potentially gotten the mentality of LEO that you're seeing now in ND?

Georgia's LE problem is state-wide, but it isn't just in Georgia. It is everywhere. The difference from place to place is merely a matter of degree. Chicago cops are as bad or worse than Georgia. New Orleans as well.

The people in North Dakota are eerily law abiding. Their LE reflects that. They also have very few cops. Many rural counties have 3 or 4, and that is it. They spend their time dealing with actual criminals and civil service, and are kept from doing the crap that other, less fettered cops get to do. It doesn't mean they are the good guys. They still have speed traps, and I was pulled over on a pretext stop in Minot one night by a bored cop looking to start trouble. I observed another Minot cop try to get people to flinch by acting like he was going to ram their cars. first one to react get a pulled over for "tensing up when he saw me".

I spent January and February and part of March in Europe. I almost never saw a cop, and when I did, they were invariably restrained and polite. I had a conversation with the only uniformed Viennese cop I saw about his pistol. The guy was carrying a nickel plated Beretta. Imagine the balls it takes to carry a Beretta in Gaston Glock's hood.

I've never been to - or even passed through - NO. When the opportunity comes up, I exit I-10, get on I-12, then get back on I-10 on the other side of NO... not for any reason other than convenience. I mention this so you know I'm not arguing from a stance of experience.

You are missing out. I can give you a list of non-tourist things to do and see that are a lot of fun.

That said, I'm to understand from reading on the internet that NO's problems are much more severe and diverse than simply a bad police department. Meaning, just because the police are acting within the confines of the law, doesn't mean the area is good or safe. The murder rate per capita is a true outlier relative to the national stat, and actively works to lower our national average. Worse, the homicide solve-rate is beyond pathetic.

It goes way beyond that. The DA doesn't care about murders and rapes. The NOPD won't shift assets to go after those cases. They don't pay. If the bully boys in polyester write you a ticket, then they profit from their extortion. There is no direct monetary benefit to the government for pursuing violent crime, so they don't care. Besides, it is mostly poor black males killing each other, and the government there has historically not cared about that.

To what extent do you see police misconduct tied to population-generated crime? Does one drive the other? Which is the dependent variable? Do you believe that cleaning up the police department will positively influence general crime rates beyond the numerical reduction in police-committed crimes? Do you think it's possible that the quality of the police force is reflective of the quality of the population that it draws off of?

Robert Peel said the police were of the people and for the people. That is the ideal, and does not exist. The cops see themselves as a cross between prison guards and overseers. That "pick up that can" mentality is simply the norm for them. The Stanford experiment should illustrate to you that people act certain ways when told that they have power and no accountability.

If cops restricted themselves to malum se crimes, then our lives would instantly improve. Get rid of fines for traffic offenses. If speeding is such a bad thing, then it will be jail only. No more money. You can bet that without the possibility of extortion, ticket books would rarely be used.

The problems with LE are significant, and can't be tied to any one or two things. Revamping the cops would take a top down approach. It will never happen. Never forget, after WWII, all those German cops who eagerly did horrible things to the citizenry kept their jobs. At the very least, they should have been fired and barred from employment as LE, most should have been shot. Nope, they kept them. And cops will do whatever their paymasters tell them to do, no matter how illegal or horrific,

Not meant to be a defense of LEO misconduct, just questions from someone who is interested in the topic, but lacks the insight that would have been gained from personal experience. Meaning, I want to understand the situation, but I'm unable/unwilling to go live there just to satisfy that curiosity.

I wouldn't move to Detroit or Newark. I have no curiosity. I know what is going on.

[whiterussian1974]

(Poiki posted while I was typing. I'll read his response now.)
---
For whatever reason, it seems endemic to GA. Sad to say, same here in TX. I have family that live in GA and seen PLENTY of vids of Crooked Police in GA violating Rights and forcing their way into people's home in similar manner.

Every once in a great while, a DA will round out corrupt Officials in TX locales, but it's usually when an opposing Party wins the DA Election, vs the remainder of the City or County Officials. THere are some NOTORIOUS places to avoid here in TX. Montgomery Co (where I live) was once known as "The MOst Corrupt County in TX." MANY frameups. But SEVERAL counties are known for planting evidence/etc. Trinity, Polk, Colorado, etc are places where the DA often wants to refuse to accept charges, or will dismiss them at the Drop of a Hat.

I was arrested for being a Police Ofr and possessing my Duty Weapon in Trinity Co. The son of the Polk Co Sheriff bragged in the Police Academy of how they planted drugs on people that they didn't like. There are some small towns (Willis, Patton Village, etc.) that are known as Traps where they seize Property and refuse to return it even after Court Order. They are also known as the only way to buy drugs. Just go to the HS parking lot or the Train Tracks and they have Patrol Car trunks full of whatever you might want. They only enforce Narcotics Laws against their Competition.

The ATF has multiple times raided several Neighboring Counties for Illegal Weapons possession and sales. The Deputies that lose their PO License as part of the Plea Agreement, just get jobs at the Courthouse or Jail that don't require PO Licenses.

The FBI and US Marshalls have shut down entire Police Depts. They have had to staff the Positions w LEOs from other Counties and supervised the Dept for 90-180days to ensure a clean transfer rather than a "return to business as usual" w the deck chairs rearranged on the Titanic.

Yet, the State AG doesn't reel them in. In Trinity the Police were raping young women and some got it on there cell phones. The TX Rangers went in and forced them to "leave the Dept," yet they all had new jobs w/i 90days in surrounding areas.

In Houston the City Police have some Ofrs on Patrol who have been convicted of Rape or Homicide, yet still patrol. Have you ever heard of a Misdemeanor Murder Charge?!?! We actually write them here.

It disgusts me. Yet, if I quit, they win. They will replace me w someone far worse, and the new Ofrs won't have a Good Role Model to pattern themselves after. Or cover their backs when they do things right and stand up to corrupt Officials above them.

[poikilotrm]

Yet, the State AG doesn't reel them in. In Trinity the Police were raping young women and some got it on there cell phones. The TX Rangers went in and forced them to "leave the Dept," yet they all had new jobs w/i 90days in surrounding areas.

LE cures sexual criminals in their midst just like the Catholic church does, by geography.

It disgusts me. Yet, if I quit, they win. They will replace me w someone far worse, and the new Ofrs won't have a Good Role Model to pattern themselves after. Or cover their backs when they do things right and stand up to corrupt Officials above them.

Try to avoid ending up dead or with a pound of meth in your possession. Or both.

[TROOPER]

Let's say you're emperor of the US. As an emperor, you have essentially unlimited power since you are the law, but as a human, you still cannot change the minds, personalities, or character of individuals.

Now you're acknowledging corrupt police departments and/or corrupt individual cops.

What do you do about this given your newfound unlimited administrative/executive authority? Remember, you can't change their minds.

Obviously replacement would be a start, but what prevents the new LEO members from following in the same footsteps? What systemic changes do you make? Some form of accountability? What would it be? How would it work? Specifically, how would it differ from any processes that are in place now? Are the checks-and-balances that we have in place now inadequate? Or are they simply not being properly used?

Beyond that, what do you do to ensure these reforms persevere beyond your tenure as emperor?

[poikilotrm]

Let's say you're emperor of the US. As an emperor, you have essentially unlimited power since you are the law, but as a human, you still cannot change the minds, personalities, or character of individuals.

It doesn't take an emperor. Simply do a hiring freeze. No cops? No cop problems.

Remember that cops in the US have two geneses, the southern genesis, which was the creation of LE to deal principly with escaped slaves and slave uprisings, and the northern, which was aimed at suppression riots and keeping recent immigrants in check. They did not come into existence for honorable reasons or to deal with crime.

If you must have cops, then they must be held to a higher standard. That means they are NOT above the law.

It doesn't matter how corrupt a populace is, because cops have no impact on that, one way or another. One cop or a thousand, criminals will do what they will do.

Cops should be hired with the understanding that they are there to protect the civil rights of others, and that is it. No more policing for profit.

If there aren't many cops, it doesn't matter how corrupt a government is. You can have the most tyrannical and evil laws ever, but without a goon squad to enforce those laws, they don't matter. Government evils are done by government servants. If a law says "kill your neighbor if he waters his lawn", would you do it? No? Well, a cop would. Remember, that every law, no matter how innocuous, carries the death penalty behind it. And if you are jaywalking and some thug with a badge tries to stop you, and you tell him to F--k off, you very well might end up very dead.

Obviously replacement would be a start, but what prevents the new LEO members from following in the same footsteps? What systemic changes do you make?

Require each cop to have a personal insurance policy. His policy must be reviewed annually. Enough problems, and he becomes uninsurable. No policy? Can't hire ya. Sorry.

Some form of accountability? What would it be? How would it work? Specifically, how would it differ from any processes that are in place now? Are the checks-and-balances that we have in place now inadequate? Or are they simply not being properly used?

We have a mechanism now, but crooked cops and crooked DAs and crooked judges work to subvert it. Remember when the Orleans Parish DA deliberately flubbed the Danziger trial? It takes a special kind of guy to machine gun a Down's Syndrome guy then stomp him to death, and it takes an even more special kind of a guy to refuse to prosecute that scumbag.

Beyond that, what do you do to ensure these reforms persevere beyond your tenure as emperor?

They would not. The government likes corrupt cops. If they didn't, they would do something about it. Now we have that ass Trump sitting in the White House pledging his full support for civil asset forfeiture, and I doubt he has the slightest idea what it is or means.

[TROOPER]

Require each cop to have a personal insurance policy. His policy must be reviewed annually. Enough problems, and he becomes uninsurable. No policy? Can't hire ya. Sorry.

Is this insurance policy tax deductible? (not really a relevant question, just curious).

Devil's Advocate: some of the proposals you make would have a supply-demand affect on LEOs which would necessarily raise the pay individually. Partly it seems as though this doesn't matter to you since more pay per LEO without a corresponding increase in budget would necessarily mean fewer cops. Fewer cops would necessarily alter priority of policing to discontinue small ticket items.

Ok, that seems viable.

Any other vetting procedures you'd put in place? Or simply less personnel, with the belief that "idle hands are the devil's playground" is what is 'encouraging' inappropriate behavior?

Any educational or psych evals you'd like done?

Really stretch your imagination to improve the system so that when you're done being emperor, it doesn't implode back to the way it was/is.

[poikilotrm]

It will always regress. There is no way to halt a decline. People start high then degrade.

Cops are already not responding to "small ticket items". If your house gets burgled, lots of places have an online report system. No cop ever goes out to your home.

As far as cop pay increasing, you tend to get what you pay for. I would rather have ine well paid professional cop who fears the law than three drooling idiot thugs with qualified immunity.

The vetting we did for medical school seems to have worked quite well. There was prior behavior, performance, social activities performed, and education, plus a battery of tests that weeded out the chaff PDQ.

Wanna be a cop? OK. You have to be at least 22 years old. You need a college degree. You need a 3.0 or better. You need to be and remain physically and morally fit.