So about this whole ITAR thing- 07/02s take note

[RavenArmament]

Sec. 120.3 Policy on designating defense articles and services.

Designations of defense articles and defense services are based primarily
on whether an article or service is deemed to be inherently military in
character. Whether it has a predominantly military application is taken
into account. The fact that an article or service may be used for both
military and civilian purposes does not in and of itself determine whether
it is subject to the export controls of this subchapter. (Narrow
exceptions to this general policy exist with respect to exports of certain
spare parts and components in Categories V(d); VIII (e) and (g); XI(e);
XII(c); and XVI(b).) The intended use of the article or service after its
export (i.e., for a military or civilian purpose) is also not relevant in
determining whether the export is subject to the controls of this
subchapter.

Sec. 120.4 Relation to Department of Commerce regulations.

If an article or service is placed on the United States Munitions List,
its export is regulated exclusively by the Department of State. Exports
which are not subject to the controls of this subchapter are generally
under the regulatory jurisdiction of the Department of Commerce pursuant
to the Export Administration Act of 1979, as amended (50 U.S.C. App. 2401
through 2420) and the implementing Export Administration Regulations (15
CFR parts 368 through 399).

Sec. 120.5 Commodity jurisdiction procedure.

The Office of Munitions Control will provide, upon written request, a
determination on whether a particular article is included on the United
States Munitions List. Such requests should be accompained by five copies
of the letter requesting a determination and any brochures or other
documentation or specifications relating to the article. A "commodity
jurisdiction" procedure is used if a doubt exists within the U.S.
Government on whether an article is on the Munitions List. The procedure
entails consultations among the Departments of State, Commerce and
Defense.

Interesting. So on behalf of my company, I will prepare the 5 copies of a professional letter describing the products my company manufactures, all of which are marketed and intended solely for use by the citizens and domestic law enforcement agencies of the United States and in no way, shape, form, or intent on being exported, marketed, sold to, or utilized by any army or military force, domestic or foreign. I will submit these to the US State Department requesting a Commodities Jurisdiction Ruling.

Hopefully they will do as the law suggests and find my company's products to not be defensive articles, as defined. Then I can be exempt from ITAR due to my company not making "defensive articles" and promptly request my $4,000 back for the registration my company paid.

Wish me luck. This could be ALL 07/02s, even those like AAC and DeGroat who sell to military, could be exempt from ITAR. For any business it hurts. For a tiny ass company like mine, it would be a blessing.

I'll keep everyone posted.

Adam

[Diomed]

I do hope you've got a competent attorney helping with this.

[RavenArmament]

Nope. Just me. Can't afford a lawyer. Don't think I need one.

Simple letter stating this company manufactures these things for this market and as such are they defensive articles. Save and print 5 copies. Then mail out.

I don't see where a lawyer needs to be involved to write a letter and mail it.

[Armorer-at-Law]

I don't see where a lawyer needs to be involved to write a letter and mail it.

Famous last words.

[renegade]

It is a trick that will work against. They will rule it is a defense article and then you have it in writing and very little recourse.

Take silencers for example.

It is indisputable that silencer are NOT inherently military in character. They were invented by civilians, used by civilians, and pretty much ignored by the military for the first 100+ years.

Send a letter in though, and I will bet they will tell you it is a defense article.

[renegade]

Interesting. So on behalf of my company, I will prepare the 5 copies of a professional letter describing the products my company manufactures, all of which are marketed and intended solely for use by the citizens and domestic law enforcement agencies of the United States and in no way, shape, form, or intent on being exported, marketed, sold to, or utilized by any army or military force, domestic or foreign. I will submit these to the US State Department requesting a Commodities Jurisdiction Ruling

You are misreading it. Intended use clearly does not matter:

The intended use of the article or service after its export (i.e., for a military or civilian purpose) is also not relevant in determining whether the export is subject to the controls of this subchapter.

What you are doing with the article or intend for it it is of no consequence. What the article is, is what counts.

I could be making M240 SAWs "marketed and intended solely for use by the citizens and domestic law enforcement agencies of the United States and in no way, shape, form, or intent on being exported, marketed, sold to, or utilized by any army or military force, domestic or foreign" but it is still a defense article.

This is an example why sporting shotguns are not defense articles.

[Diomed]

This is an example why sporting shotguns are not defense articles.

It's kind of a pity that they're exempted in the regs, because I suspect that it wouldn't be terribly hard to get them classified as defense articles. Military forces use cut down sport shotguns. Of course, they're generally ragged guerrillas, but they probably pop up in the hands of combatants more often than silencers do.

[RavenArmament]

So what would you advise? Roll over and take it like usual or write the letters to get a determination?

[renegade]

So what would you advise? Roll over and take it like usual or write the letters to get a determination?

Same thing I advise in every thread about ITAR. Use common sense and decide for yourself if what you are making is a defense article or not.

[RavenArmament]

My opinion doesn't matter in this instance.

[yellowfin]

That whole fee and really the whole idea of it is reITARded.

[RavenArmament]

Update. Myself and a few California based 07 FFL have went through this and we don't have to pay the ITAR as it was determined we aren't manufacturing defensive articles. Specifically my company makes ammunition, machine guns (M16 variants), AR15 semi auto rifles and pistols, and silencers. No ITAR registration for any of it.

I posted this in another thread here but follow the above precedure in 120.5 and listed below (overview). I can't offer any more advice than that, except be very thorough and concise in your letter. Articulate fully and clearly that it's for domestic civilian use and the term I used was "domestic civilian patrol law enforcement agencies", ie your local cops. Cops aren't civilians but they aren't military, so I made up an "ammunition feeding device" like term to refer to them.

Actually it was a California based 07 FFL that informed me about the CJR. I argued that it says in 120.2 or 120.3 that civilian use is irrelevant in the determination. He said "read it again". That's for export for civilian use. The exporting is what will automatically trigger ITAR.

Here's his post.

I have talked with two separate individuals at State and both agree that being a manufacturer puts you squarely under ITAR. You MUST submit a commodities jurisdiction request for each individual item you manufacture. Drawings, cutaways, the works. They may take up to 65 days to get back to you.

Unless your item is:

on the munitions list (which all guns are) AND it has no predominant civilian use AND it was specifically designed for the military
OR
your item represents a potential threat to national security,

they are not going to make you cough up the $2,250 a year.

Yes, you are under ITAR.
Yes, you must submit a CJ request for each item.
No, you do not neccessarily have to pay the big fee.

THE ABOVE IS NOT LEGAL ADVICE, WHICH CAN ONLY BE GIVEN BY A LAWYER.

[tmbg]

I guess the real question is:

Have you submitted a CJ request for every item you manufacture?

and

Have they responded?

[RavenArmament]

Read the post above.

Myself and a few California based 07 FFL have went through this and we don't have to pay the ITAR as it was determined we aren't manufacturing defensive articles.

[MisterWilson]

It is a trick that will work against. They will rule it is a defense article and then you have it in writing and very little recourse.

Take silencers for example.

It is indisputable that silencer are NOT inherently military in character. They were invented by civilians, used by civilians, and pretty much ignored by the military for the first 100+ years.

Send a letter in though, and I will bet they will tell you it is a defense article.

My understanding is that ITAR steps in on anything that can be ruled "Small Arms Technology", regardless of whether it's civilian or military in character.

[RavenArmament]

The break down for each item was this:

Silencer:
Is it on the munitions list? Yes.
Is is predominantly for civilian use? Yes.
Is is specifically for military use? No.
Is is a threat to national security? No.

Then no registration for ITAR.

Next item...

[bigguynail]

This is the best clearest ITAR's thread I have read I went through the state departments website and came the conclusion you did.

Thank You for the clear description of your progression of communication.

[MG_Willy]

I have an idea in mind for a business and it most defiantly is not specifically for military use and would be almost if not completely Civilian used...
Have one of you kind people that sent in the letters posted the verbiage so that others may follow suit... What I want to do would be so small that its more of a hobby than an actual business... If someone would PM me with the info.. I would love to get a classification from the State and not pay the itar... my business wuld work and make money but not if I have to pay the itar...


Thanks

MG Willy

[PTK]

Annnnd this is why I'm happier not holding that FFL myself. Yeesh.

[icentropy]

Hi guys, bringing this back from the dead. Wanted to see if Ravenarmament or anyone else has gotten more experience with the Commodity jurisdiction procedure. Almost everywhere i read 07 FFLs are just paying the fee and don't even bother to submit CJ letters. I assume half just go with what they hear and the other half make enough to simply feel it's not worth the effort to submit a letter for every product. There are only a few mentions of CJ letters and usually the FFL isn't wanting to provide much info on what worked/what didn't. I haven't heard of any instances where the CJ letters were rejected yet though perhaps those people simply don't post that info up on the WWW.

I'm looking to get my 07FFL but i'd like to understand the submission of the CJ letters and if they are truly for each individual product or each product family? Also for those that have submitted CJ letter and gotten responses how has that worked into your way of doing business and developing products?

[icentropy]

Well to test the waters, I just submitted a CJ request for an AR-15 pistol. Keep in mind although I do have a machine shop, I do not currently have a 07 FFL or 02 SOT yet and i obviously have not registered with ITAR. To be clear since i have no 07FFL i have not manufactured or even sold a firearm as a business and clearly stated that on the CJ request. The purpose of this CJ request (besides actually having a pistol exempt from ITAR is to see if firearms and by extension (any predominately civilian articles that are mentioned in the USML section 1) could be exempt from ITAR.

The real question i think will be answered is does an item on the USML have to be a defense article as defined by 120.3? OR is every item listed on the USML by definition a defense article regardless of whether or not it meets the requirements of 120.3? This CJ request should clearly answer that question. It can not be granted if the definition is the second. If it is granted then there's no reason that a correctly worded CJ wouldn't be able to be granted for other firearms or even suppressors. At least that's the way i understand it.

[Armorer-at-Law]

icentropy, please keep us posted on whatever response you receive.

[k31user]

[quote="icentropy"]Hi guys, bringing this back from the dead. Wanted to see if Ravenarmament or anyone else has gotten more experience with the Commodity jurisdiction procedure. Almost everywhere i read 07 FFLs are just paying the fee and don't even bother to submit CJ letters. I assume half just go with what they hear and the other half make enough to simply feel it's not worth the effort to submit a letter for every product. There are only a few mentions of CJ letters and usually the FFL isn't wanting to provide much info on what worked/what didn't. I haven't heard of any instances where the CJ letters were rejected yet though perhaps those people simply don't post that info up on the WWW.

I'm looking to get my 07FFL but i'd like to understand the submission of the CJ letters and if they are truly for each individual product or each product family? Also for those that have submitted CJ letter and gotten responses how has that worked into your way of doing business and developing products?[/quote]

There's a reason some just pay the fee. Having ATF shut you down for 6 months at a time takes away one's resolve(and finances). Just asking a question can re-open old audits and investigations.

[bryan]

I can really use your guys help with this. I have been following your ITAR advice and really not to sure about it. I am going to be in my own gun smithing business coming up rather quickly and alittle lost. I was planning on type 7 with sot but with the way the government is these days and their wording makes it very hard. When I do "if" I go for type 7 and sot when and how would you write that letter? Do you have to have a plan or blueprint for each weapon made? Or can you write that letter before being charged that 2250.00 fee? I am way lost here. I value your guys opinions and value them. You guys been doing this loner then me. What if I just go for a type 1 license and type 6 reloads only? Can I get an sot with that or do I have to do type 7 for the sot. I know type 7 covers everything a 1 and 6 but that money is way up there and im just starting out. Thanks for everything... Please let me know.... thanks bryan

[AirCavBob]

Bryan. If you want to go SOT all you need is an 01 FFL and then you're pay the $500. Go and get registered at fflsonly dot com once you have your FFL. Can't get in without the FFL. Lots of good info there.