Who can demand to see your Form 4

[harm152]

Was at the range and someone demanded to see my form 4. Just curious, who has a legal right to ask for your paperwork? I was under the impression it was only Law Enforcement... Thanks

[700PSS]

Legally? It says: "ATF Officer." Who asked you and did you submit?

[harm152]

I was at Impact Guns. The range guy came out and demanded to see them, tried to say it was federal law that I had to show him. If he had said, "may I please see you forms," or "do you mind if I see your forms," it would have been no problem. It was that he came out acting like I was a criminal, and I think he made up federal law. They don't have anything posted which says show your form 4 before shooting at the gun counter.... I have shot there dozens of times with my class 3, never asked anything prior. Always have my forms. Don't really mind showing anyone, just hate being treated like a criminal. They are even a class 3 dealer, but not very class 3 friendly... And, yes, I did show him my form 4's but also gave him some feedback when I left.

[doubloon]

As with nearly everything ATF vagueries abound.

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/nationa ... r-evidence

Q: Does the owner of a registered NFA firearm have to have any evidence to show it is registered lawfully to him or her?

Yes. The approved application received from ATF serves as evidence of registration of the NFA firearm in the owner’s name. This document must be kept available for inspection by ATF officers. It is suggested that a photocopy of the approved application be carried by the owner when the weapon is being transported.

[700PSS]

Being private property, they can certainly ask you to leave, but that's all. I think I would call and ask the owner for an appointment to discuss the details in person. You could also offer for him to have his legal counsel on hand, if he would like. That usually gets their attention. I really don't want anyone who doesn't have a need to know, to see my name and address, where they can show up to steal things.

[doubloon]

Being private property, they can certainly ask you to leave, but that's all. ...

This

He can also call the ATF if he likes to report someone in possession of an NFA on his property ... to me it seems this would cause both parties to become the focus of an undesirable amount of attention. If an ATF officer actually did investigate I'm sure he'd look at the property owner and say "use your fucking brain" and then look at the NFA owner and say "what's your fucking problem ? let him see the damn form."

[harm152]

I sent a letter to the owner. posted here.... if I get a reply, I will post as well:

Dave,

I have been a longtime customer at Impact Guns. My name is Brian XXXXX, you can look me up in your database if that helps. I was in at your range today shooting and I had a very unpleasant experience with your staff. It started when the guy running the range counter came on the range and demanded to see my "paperwork" for my silencer. First and foremost, I have no problem whatsoever showing my paperwork to your staff when I shoot on your range. However, he was very accusatory and rude, I felt as though he was treating me like a criminal and I had to PROVE my innocence by showing him my form 4.

The correct approach would have been if he came out and simply asked, "Sir, would you mind if I verify your form 4's?" I would have said, absolutely not, given him the paperwork and it would have been all over. Instead, he said it was Federal Law that I show him my form 4 and was very condescending about the whole thing. I am an officer in the military, I was with other military officers. First, I do not think that this is Federal Law. If a Law enforcement officer demanded to see them, great, I got it, that is federal law. If it is your range policy, great, I got it. However, it is NOT posted.

I have shot in your facility many times, often with class 3 and this is the first time your staff has asked for my paperwork. Again, no problem showing it, even if it isn't Federal Law, if you say please. If it is Federal Law that you can demand to see the paperwork (which I would argue it is not) or even if it is just store policy.... you should post it at the counter. You are a class 3 dealer, I have bought class 3 from you. I think it would be great if class 3 customers were treated professionally and politely!

I addressed the situation with the range counter guy after I was done shooting, I was still very upset, he actually was somewhat apologetic and handled my frustration well.

I attempted to bring this up with your assistant store manager (short guy, bald hair, wears suspenders). My goal was to explain the situation, inform him that if this was a "store" policy he should have a sign. I also wanted to explain that while I was highly offended by the range counter guy, that the range counter guy did handle my comments well and managed to give good customer service after the initial incident.

However, your assistant manager was even more rude than the guy behind the counter and I couldn't get through the bad stuff to get to the good stuff. I was upset, explained the situation, and then he was condescending and rude as well and made up a bunch of federal law to justify their actions. Store policy is fine, but put it somewhere visible or have enough customer service to be polite when your staff asks for paperwork. Think about your clientele.. we are very polite when treated polite, but when you act like a flaming liberal who hates guns and hates people with guns / class 3, we get upset....

If you don't want class 3 customers to use your range, just post it.

I truly hope this was an isolated incident.

v/r
Brian XXXXXX
801-XXX-XXXX

[700PSS]

If I were asked to leave private property, I would immediately comply by leaving. If some unauthorized individual demanded to see my paperwork that they have no legal right to see and threatened to call the police or ATF, I'd say go for it. However, I would also point out that "providing false information to LEO" (i.e. falsely reporting illegal possession) can get them arrested and that their actions may create civil liability ($) for themselves as well. It’s also logical for one to wonder: If you really are a “hitman” as they suggest, do they really want to antagonize such a person? So, do you feel lucky, punk?

[Diomed]

You have three options. You can comply, you can leave, or you can ask to see the manager/owner who will probably back their employee, leading back to a choice between options one and two.

[continuity]

... If an ATF officer actually did investigate I'm sure he'd look at the property owner and say "use your fucking brain" and then look at the NFA owner and say "what's your fucking problem ? let him see the damn form."

This.

[ick]

Carry one of these:

http://www.ick.bz/firearms

[doubloon]

FWIW at a couple of the ranges I frequent I have asked in the past if they have any issues with NFA devices on their range and the response was "nope, just be sure to bring your forms" but never have they actually asked to see my forms when I shoot NFA at their range.

[Wicked]

FWIW at a couple of the ranges I frequent I have asked in the past if they have any issues with NFA devices on their range and the response was "nope, just be sure to bring your forms" but never have they actually asked to see my forms when I shoot NFA at their range.

This has been my experience also. Most simply ask if I have 'papers' for the item and then leave it at that.

[harm152]

Situation resolved, the owner responded to my concerns in a very professional and polite manner. He also responded very quickly. I think this was a situation of the employees not knowing what the law really states, but he is addressing the issue. His response is below. I am very impressed with the level of customer service from the owner. Really, I can't ask for anything more out of this situation.

Hi XXXXX- thanks for taking the time to tell me about the situation. I'm not sure how this happened- over the years we have tried our best to accommodate our customers and some of the special needs of class 3 shooters. I can only assume someone has gone off the trail and it must be time again to get everyone back on track. I really apologize and hope we can get you back, we appreciate your business, and don't want to loose it.

Next time you are in, please ask for the envelope with your name on it (in the managers office- XXXX). I have some range passes I need to give out- you get them! And I would appreciate it if you could let me know after your next visit if things seemed back to normal.

Again- I hope this helps, and let me know if we can do anything else- ever.

Regards,

XXXX

[harm152]

You have three options. You can comply, you can leave, or you can ask to see the manager/owner who will probably back their employee, leading back to a choice between options one and two.

Option 3 worked. Manager / owner exceeded yours and my expectations. He actually appears to be correcting the situation. I am very happy with the way this worked out. Posted above because I do want the good to be know as well as the bad.

[700PSS]

Wow! That's great!

[wyoguy]

Really, I can't I can only assume someone has gone off the trail and it must be time again to get everyone back on track. I really apologize and hope we can get you back, we appreciate your business, and don't want to loose it.

Ain't It The Truth...AIN'T IT THE TRUTH !!!



Wyoguy

[Wicked]

Harm,

Credit first goes to you, Sir. You handled the situation with class and kept your cool. Just because others conduct themselves in an inappropriate manner does not mean you are required to reply in kind. Bravo Zulu!

The owner promptly responded and has taken action. He did as much as possible to resolve the situation. Sounds like a decent guy and a smart businessman. He has most likely salvaged your patronage. I'd go back and give them another try anyway.

[combat45acp]

Just love a happy ending!

[brianb]

I would think such a positive response and outcome merits named credit here for appropriate kudos.

What range is this? They seem to deserve our patronage and support.

thanks, and congrats.

[Diomed]

Option 3 worked. Manager / owner exceeded yours and my expectations. He actually appears to be correcting the situation. I am very happy with the way this worked out. Posted above because I do want the good to be know as well as the bad.

I'm glad I was wrong, though I do wonder if that would have been the case had you moved it up the chain at the time of the event. Confront managers in the heat of the moment and many of them have a reflex response of defending their employee.

[ick]

I would think such a positive response and outcome merits named credit here for appropriate kudos.

What range is this? They seem to deserve our patronage and support.

thanks, and congrats.

Perhaps wait a day and post a thread about the gun range by name and note they have a great attitude..... without these specifics.