NFA using personal check
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- Silent Operator
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NFA using personal check
I was wondering if it is ok to use personal check that is not part of the trust to pay for the tax stamp.
Re: NFA using personal check
Your trying to get something started.
I would say yes! A few will say no.
My interpretation is: If you have you are listed as a Trustee and the Trust states that the Trustee has the power to make payments in the interest of the Trust you shouldnt have a problem.
Hell, according to the ATF whoever is picking up the NFA item on behalf of the Trust or Corporation has to Fill out a 4473 and have a NICS Check done on them. So why could you NOT use your money.
The above is just a pessimistic safe guard.
ETA: not between could and use
I would say yes! A few will say no.
My interpretation is: If you have you are listed as a Trustee and the Trust states that the Trustee has the power to make payments in the interest of the Trust you shouldnt have a problem.
Hell, according to the ATF whoever is picking up the NFA item on behalf of the Trust or Corporation has to Fill out a 4473 and have a NICS Check done on them. So why could you NOT use your money.
The above is just a pessimistic safe guard.
ETA: not between could and use
Last edited by msgmwrdn on Sun Feb 27, 2011 10:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: NFA using personal check
Your cousins, mothers, aunts, sisters, boyfriends, babies mama, could make the payment as far as the tax payment goes. ATF just wants the money.
But...
Using a personal check makes it easy to determine when the check gets cashed.
But...
Using a personal check makes it easy to determine when the check gets cashed.
Stay calm, stay strong, and have a backup plan.
Re: NFA using personal check
I use a personal check for mine, my view is it doesnt matter who pays for it. It could have the Presidents signature or the local drunks. I think the argument is that if you dont use a bank account with the trust's name on it, the trust cant own it. This isnt true at all im sure everything you own you didnt pay for, christmas gifts etc.
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Re: NFA using personal check
Thanks for the replies...this is a little exciting.
- continuity
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Re: NFA using personal check
The personal check will be fine.ar15fanboy wrote:Thanks for the replies...
I'd invite you to our grass growing and car rusting observation activities, but given the OP excitment level, I'm afraid your heart might not be able to take it...ar15fanboy wrote:...this is a little exciting.
What amount of a man is composed of his own collection of experiences... and the conclusions that those experiences have allowed him to "know" for certain as "Truth"? :Ick
Re: NFA using personal check
Uh...msgmwrdn wrote:...and have a NICS Check done on them.
Re: NFA using personal check
National Instant Criminal Background Check System
A.K.A. NICS
9.12.19.12.1 NFA Transfers to other than individuals. Subsequent to the approval of an applicationrequesting to transfer an NFA firearm to, or on behalf of, a partnership, company, association,trust, estate, or corporation, the authorized person picking up the firearm on behalf of, apartnership, company, association, trust, estate, or corporation from the FFL must complete theForm 4473 with his/her personal information and undergo a NICS check.
27 CFR 479.105(d)
177 27 CFR 479.105(c)
A.K.A. NICS
9.12.19.12.1 NFA Transfers to other than individuals. Subsequent to the approval of an applicationrequesting to transfer an NFA firearm to, or on behalf of, a partnership, company, association,trust, estate, or corporation, the authorized person picking up the firearm on behalf of, apartnership, company, association, trust, estate, or corporation from the FFL must complete theForm 4473 with his/her personal information and undergo a NICS check.
27 CFR 479.105(d)
177 27 CFR 479.105(c)
Re: NFA using personal check
I don't recall a NICS check being done at the time of pick-up. Did I have to fill out the form, yes, did he call and get approval while I was there, no. Doesn't mean he didn't call after I left, but at that time there was no call.
Re: NFA using personal check
What was or wasn't done by an FFL is not what I am saying I'm only stating what can be found written in BLACK and WHITE in the National Firearms Act Handbook.
I was clarifying my first reply. That is what I do to try and cover my A**.
Since the NFA Handbook requires an NICS check on the person that picks up the item for the Trust. Then He or She should be able to PAY for it however they want. Monopoly money excluded of course.
But for the FFL's sake I hope they do since the Handbook states it is so.
I was clarifying my first reply. That is what I do to try and cover my A**.
Since the NFA Handbook requires an NICS check on the person that picks up the item for the Trust. Then He or She should be able to PAY for it however they want. Monopoly money excluded of course.
But for the FFL's sake I hope they do since the Handbook states it is so.
Re: NFA using personal check
Gotcha.
Re: NFA using personal check
NICS check is NOT required for NFA items. Question 22 on Form 4473 states: "No NICS check was required because the transfer involved only NFA firearm(s)."msgmwrdn wrote:What was or wasn't done by an FFL is not what I am saying I'm only stating what can be found written in BLACK and WHITE in the National Firearms Act Handbook.
I was clarifying my first reply. That is what I do to try and cover my A**.
Since the NFA Handbook requires an NICS check on the person that picks up the item for the Trust. Then He or She should be able to PAY for it however they want. Monopoly money excluded of course.
But for the FFL's sake I hope they do since the Handbook states it is so.
Re: NFA using personal check
Yes if the item was done on an individual with CLEO sign off the check was already done by the examiner but if in the case of a Trust the individual picking up the NFA item has not been checked so they must be checked. Its in the NFA handbook.
Argue thats fine but Ill cover my FFL A** and do what the book says.
ETA: Check Sections 9.12 and 9.12.1 in the NFA Handbook printed by the BATFE.
Argue thats fine but Ill cover my FFL A** and do what the book says.
ETA: Check Sections 9.12 and 9.12.1 in the NFA Handbook printed by the BATFE.
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Re: NFA using personal check
My transferrer had me fill the usual 4473 and then put my CHL information on it but that exempts the NICS check just like any other time I've bought a gun or had it transferred. Interesting I've paid by USPS money order both times one time with my name, another with the trust name... don't think it really matters as long as you're the trustee and even then... someone else could pay your income taxes I imagine
Re: NFA using personal check
silver xone - I'm guessing your talking about your concealed carry permit. If thats the case then you have already been checked.
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Re: NFA using personal check
I understand that. Due to my circumstances of having a CHL; I am saying I'm not sure if they are required to do a NICS check or the equiv with suppressors or other NFA items.
Re: NFA using personal check
You are not... presenting a CHL or in our state a Firearms Permit makes you exempt from the NICS check.
Re: NFA using personal check
according to my NFA lawyer, a personal check is just fine. (This is TX) he stated that I should place "Trustee" in the "Memo" portion of the check.
- joshrunkle35
- Silent But Deadly
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Re: NFA using personal check
Not true. A form 1 or 4 is not an application to have the item, it is an application to pay the tax on the item in order to have the item. Same thing on a 4473. It's an application for a background check to "purchase" a firearm, not to "possess" "bear" or "own" a firearm.Fastflt1 wrote:Your cousins, mothers, aunts, sisters, boyfriends, babies mama, could make the payment as far as the tax payment goes. ATF just wants the money.
A trustee can pay in the interests of the trust, an officer can pay in the interests of their llc, or an individual can pay in their own interests.
If your wife wants to buy a gun for you, she has to fill out a 4473, because the party making payment is the applicant, not the intended owner. Now, this can get gray because ffls are often concerned that the second party is "actually" the person making payment AND the intended owner, and the second person is neither the true purchaser or intended owner. This would be a straw purchase. It is illegal to use someones money to buy a gun on their behalf, and you fill out the 4473. It is perfectly legal for you to purchase a firearm, using your own money, to buy a gun for someone else (this would be a gift). What makes it legal or illegal is not in who ends up with the firearm, but rather, whether or not the TRUE purchaser/buyer/funder fills out the application to purchase a firearm.
Now (strictly speaking about federal law, and not individual state laws) the federal government has no right to regulate the ownership of arms for private citizens (barring certain circumstances), so instead, they regulate the purchase of arms.
Any forms filled out are not for the owner, but only for the buyer. And, in the case of a form 1 or form 4, you are not applying to own a title 2 gun, you are applying to pay the tax to own a title 2 gun. If your brother pays the tax, and you apply to pay said tax, you are committing a crime.
Technically, this should also mean that though the ATF can regulate the purchase and ownership of title 2 guns, they should not be able to regulate the "possession" of them. Though, who would want to be a test case?
So the Libyan Fable is told
That once an eagle, stricken with a dart,
Said, when he saw the fashion of the shaft,
"With our own feathers, not by others' hands,
Are we now smitten."
-Anton Myrer, Once an Eagle
That once an eagle, stricken with a dart,
Said, when he saw the fashion of the shaft,
"With our own feathers, not by others' hands,
Are we now smitten."
-Anton Myrer, Once an Eagle
Re: NFA using personal check
However, there is the scenario where the Purchaser hands the Class III Dealer CASH for The Cost of the Stamp(s)...and the DEALER Mails In HIS Check...joshrunkle35 wrote:Not true. A form 1 or 4 is not an application to have the item, it is an application to pay the tax on the item in order to have the item. Same thing on a 4473. It's an application for a background check to "purchase" a firearm, not to "possess" "bear" or "own" a firearm.Fastflt1 wrote:Your cousins, mothers, aunts, sisters, boyfriends, babies mama, could make the payment as far as the tax payment goes. ATF just wants the money.
A trustee can pay in the interests of the trust, an officer can pay in the interests of their llc, or an individual can pay in their own interests.
If your wife wants to buy a gun for you, she has to fill out a 4473, because the party making payment is the applicant, not the intended owner. Now, this can get gray because ffls are often concerned that the second party is "actually" the person making payment AND the intended owner, and the second person is neither the true purchaser or intended owner. This would be a straw purchase. It is illegal to use someones money to buy a gun on their behalf, and you fill out the 4473. It is perfectly legal for you to purchase a firearm, using your own money, to buy a gun for someone else (this would be a gift). What makes it legal or illegal is not in who ends up with the firearm, but rather, whether or not the TRUE purchaser/buyer/funder fills out the application to purchase a firearm.
Now (strictly speaking about federal law, and not individual state laws) the federal government has no right to regulate the ownership of arms for private citizens (barring certain circumstances), so instead, they regulate the purchase of arms.
Any forms filled out are not for the owner, but only for the buyer. And, in the case of a form 1 or form 4, you are not applying to own a title 2 gun, you are applying to pay the tax to own a title 2 gun. If your brother pays the tax, and you apply to pay said tax, you are committing a crime.
Technically, this should also mean that though the ATF can regulate the purchase and ownership of title 2 guns, they should not be able to regulate the "possession" of them. Though, who would want to be a test case?
Correct?
WYOGUY
85% of all statistics are made up...and the other 30% are wrong!
- joshrunkle35
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Re: NFA using personal check
The dealer would simply be an intermediary like the bank (who's check you sent in) or the post office (if you sent a money order, etc...), and I've never done business with an FFL that would do that.wyoguy wrote:However, there is the scenario where the Purchaser hands the Class III Dealer CASH for The Cost of the Stamp(s)...and the DEALER Mails In HIS Check...joshrunkle35 wrote:Not true. A form 1 or 4 is not an application to have the item, it is an application to pay the tax on the item in order to have the item. Same thing on a 4473. It's an application for a background check to "purchase" a firearm, not to "possess" "bear" or "own" a firearm.Fastflt1 wrote:Your cousins, mothers, aunts, sisters, boyfriends, babies mama, could make the payment as far as the tax payment goes. ATF just wants the money.
A trustee can pay in the interests of the trust, an officer can pay in the interests of their llc, or an individual can pay in their own interests.
If your wife wants to buy a gun for you, she has to fill out a 4473, because the party making payment is the applicant, not the intended owner. Now, this can get gray because ffls are often concerned that the second party is "actually" the person making payment AND the intended owner, and the second person is neither the true purchaser or intended owner. This would be a straw purchase. It is illegal to use someones money to buy a gun on their behalf, and you fill out the 4473. It is perfectly legal for you to purchase a firearm, using your own money, to buy a gun for someone else (this would be a gift). What makes it legal or illegal is not in who ends up with the firearm, but rather, whether or not the TRUE purchaser/buyer/funder fills out the application to purchase a firearm.
Now (strictly speaking about federal law, and not individual state laws) the federal government has no right to regulate the ownership of arms for private citizens (barring certain circumstances), so instead, they regulate the purchase of arms.
Any forms filled out are not for the owner, but only for the buyer. And, in the case of a form 1 or form 4, you are not applying to own a title 2 gun, you are applying to pay the tax to own a title 2 gun. If your brother pays the tax, and you apply to pay said tax, you are committing a crime.
Technically, this should also mean that though the ATF can regulate the purchase and ownership of title 2 guns, they should not be able to regulate the "possession" of them. Though, who would want to be a test case?
Correct?
WYOGUY
I guess the true exception, and which, according to my argument would seem to be illegal, would be a class II "directly paying" for your stamp during a promotion. Though, I think now they might just reimburse.
So the Libyan Fable is told
That once an eagle, stricken with a dart,
Said, when he saw the fashion of the shaft,
"With our own feathers, not by others' hands,
Are we now smitten."
-Anton Myrer, Once an Eagle
That once an eagle, stricken with a dart,
Said, when he saw the fashion of the shaft,
"With our own feathers, not by others' hands,
Are we now smitten."
-Anton Myrer, Once an Eagle
Re: NFA using personal check
One of my dealers sends a business check for my stamps all the time. I pay over the phone with a credit card including the 200 for the stamp and he just uses his business account to pay it. Its never been a problem I dont see how it could be. A form 4 doesn't ask you if your the actual buyer of the firearm like a 4473 does anyway. There is nothing wrong with someone off the street you never meet buying you a can including paying the stamp and you filling out the forms and take possession and ownership without the person on the street never even laying eyes on the can.
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Re: NFA using personal check
My attorney recommended I sign all trust business as "Settlor and Trustee" or "Trustee." If you've got a letter to the dealer with payment signed as a trustee, you should be covered in any court, so long as trustees have that power (purchase new assets) under the declaration of trust.
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Re: NFA using personal check
doesn't matter who pays the $200. Take the Gemtech tax special for example. THEY pay the stamp during this special every year.
Re: NFA using personal check
The ATF doesnt care who signs the check. Speculate on the letter of the law all you want. The ATF still doesnt care what name is on the check.
Putting the laughter in manslaughter