Since when can cops detain motorists for obeying the law ?

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continuity
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Re: Since when can cops detain motorists for obeying the law

Post by continuity » Sat May 14, 2011 8:22 am

joshrunkle35 wrote:...But who should be held to a higher standard? The idiot or the officer?
Without any question... the officer. It's not only the law, it's the way it should be, and needs to be.

joshrunkle35 wrote:Obviously he was asking for it. He wanted a fight, he had ample opportunity to keep his mouth shut, be the "bigger man" and walk away. He's an idiot.
It seems to be one of those "the way of things...things". When one goes looking for trouble, it's usually what they find.

joshrunkle35 wrote:...Unfortunately the FOP has turned it into a JOB, when it should be something more in the realm of an honor or a higher calling.
Some do work hard at fullfilling their commissioned duty in an honorable way and, as you so eloquently put it, consider it a higher calling.

Having said that, everyone responds differently to the mantle of authority. Some rise magnificently to the expectation(s), while some become.... grotesquely deformed from a psychological perspective.
What amount of a man is composed of his own collection of experiences... and the conclusions that those experiences have allowed him to "know" for certain as "Truth"? :Ick

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Re: Since when can cops detain motorists for obeying the law

Post by bakerjw » Sat May 14, 2011 8:51 am

hehehe purse fights brings this to mind.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vMqSmiC_xHg

Kwik never came back to answer my question.
Has he ever NOT stopped at the inactive light in question?
If the answer is yes then he would appear to have been baiting the officer to pull him over.
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Re: Since when can cops detain motorists for obeying the law

Post by kwikrnu » Sat May 14, 2011 4:38 pm

I haven't been to that city for at least 3-4 years. I stop at all lights that appear to be inoperable.

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Re: Since when can cops detain motorists for obeying the law

Post by Libertarian_Geek » Sun May 15, 2011 1:25 am

After reading the letter, it appears that drivers are required to pull over and examine the light until they can determine the exact condition before they will know if it's either malfunctioning or just hasn't been activated. If you can't determine the exact disposition of the light, then you just have to find another route.
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continuity
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Re: Since when can cops detain motorists for obeying the law

Post by continuity » Sun May 15, 2011 1:52 am

Libertarian_Geek wrote:After reading the letter, it appears that drivers are required to pull over and examine the light until they can determine the exact condition before they will know if it's either malfunctioning or just hasn't been activated. If you can't determine the exact disposition of the light, then you just have to find another route.
Negative. After reading the letter it is apparent that the prosecutor decided the climb wasn't worth the view, and the city decided to remedy a situation that really didn't need remedying by removing the light(s) so that that societal leeches who are prepared to place others at risk of life/limb in order to draw attention to themselves and to F with the POPO, will have to look elsewhere for bushwhacking opportunities.

I enjoy the utter lack of common sense on display.
What amount of a man is composed of his own collection of experiences... and the conclusions that those experiences have allowed him to "know" for certain as "Truth"? :Ick

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Re: Since when can cops detain motorists for obeying the law

Post by Twinsen » Sun May 15, 2011 3:13 am

doubloon wrote:You asked for it!

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Re: Since when can cops detain motorists for obeying the law

Post by DustyJacket » Sun May 15, 2011 10:07 am

"I am 40 years old and tired of police corruption"

Nah, you are just upset because your first name is Leonard.
Shoot softly, and carry a big clip.

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Re: Since when can cops detain motorists for obeying the law

Post by Twinsen » Mon May 16, 2011 3:50 am

DustyJacket wrote:
"I am 40 years old and tired of police corruption"

Nah, you are just upset because your first name is Leonard.
Hey man, you know that's bullshit. You know it is.

Everybody knows Leo was the coolest ninja turtle.

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Re: Since when can cops detain motorists for obeying the law

Post by curbside » Mon May 23, 2011 9:10 am

Unapproved and maintained by private company?

I sure hope they mean as in under construction, not complete there for not paid for (accepted) by the city. And technically own by the General Contractor.

Removing light that has never been energized. Is it just me or is this whole document quite vague. Does anyone completely understand :?

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Re: Since when can cops detain motorists for obeying the law

Post by frick » Sun Jun 12, 2011 8:11 pm

First being new to the board, I find this and the other "Cop" threads "Interesting", for a number of reasons, one, my own interaction with the law, heavy foot and all, moreso dealing with the quandary of carrying openly at times, and the dangers it presents to me, even though its legal.

Second, I am an FFL, and my interactions with existing, and finally, some newly minted cops, and the decision that I will no longer sell LE any firearms, for my own political reasons.

What scares me is the "Militiarization" of police departments in this country, the almost weekly SWAT raid where someone ends up dead, from a no knock raid of some sort, usually, drugs though.

You couple this, with the now accepted mentality, that you are guilty until proven innocent, and the assumption that all police are right, and you are always wrong, and our rights are not just being eroded, but they are damn near gone.

Did any of younzes see the Miami Beach shooting? Where the guy saved the memory card in his mouth? The cop coming up to him, with gun pointed at him? Just as an observer of the shooting?

His cell phone was taken, smashed, and put back in his pocket, he kept the memory card from them, and released the video.

First, the guy in the car was executed, no attempt was made to arrest, his actions weren't offensive when the shots started, no judge, no jury, and surely, no charges against the cops.

Worse, was their actions afterwards taking cameras, etc.

This isn't just about smashing cameras, this is about police running society, as they see fit, which, on a lesser scale, is what is happening every day, in every state of our country.

And the Government is actively supporting them, not just Dems or Repubs, all of them, every time you hear the first responder crap, that they all spout, every time they need to pass a budget, or just to get cheers at a speech.

A friend asked me to appraise a Nazi dagger that Pa had brung back from the great war, made prior to 1937, Swastika Adorned, I naturally assumed it was a military dagger, it wasn't, it was for "Firemen", in researching the rise of Nazi-ism in Germany, Hitler made the Police, and Firemen quasi-military, to help take over the country, by making them "His" civilian army.

Sound familiar?

We are quickly reaching a point where either the Police, and to some extent the lower tier "First Responder" MUST be reigned in, either by public refusal to accept their actions, or by laws, or, I really fear for us as a people and a country.

Now, as I said I am new, but the fight has to start somewhere, even if its just a traffic ticket, and if you think that driving away from the "alleged" scene of your violation by kissing the cops ass, is honorable, its not, it may be the smart thing to do, but, you are just perpetuating the system as it exists.

Every ticket thats fought at Magistrates office here, ties up court time, and now costs the state MORE than what its worth to issue the ticket in the first place, take it to court, you are starting to cost them big money.

IF one person does it, it doesn't do much, if 10% of the people issued citations fought them to court, it would be a crisis, if 50% of the people did it, things would change, quickly.

If our options of a society have come down to the vote, its gone already, next, we gotta fight it with money, or, finally with guns, but, that fight gotta start now.

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Re: Since when can cops detain motorists for obeying the law

Post by continuity » Mon Jun 13, 2011 8:38 am

frick wrote: ...We are quickly reaching a point where either the Police, and to some extent the lower tier "First Responder" MUST be reigned in, either by public refusal to accept their actions, or by laws, or, I really fear for us as a people and a country...
Fairly well articulated thoughts frick. A couple of caveats might be;

a) Chaos resulting from wide spread civil disobedience is rarely a good option, at least for the most part.

b) For every f'ed up first responder/LEO action that is reported, and appropriately so, there are 1000's of positive, well executed events that first responder/LEO's are involved in.

Don't throw out the baby with the dirty bathwater, for there are those that work hard to keep the destroyers of society at bay. And they do so with the utmost tact and respect for their responsibilities, for those they interact with, and the law that they represent.

Probably even some that post on ST.
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Re: Since when can cops detain motorists for obeying the law

Post by frick » Mon Jun 13, 2011 4:45 pm

Continuity, the real poison to our police is coming from within to some extent, but, its a cancer that exists in all tiers or our Justice System.

DA's refuse to prosecute the police, but prosecute individual citizens almost automatically, if there is no real good reason to do so, just look at the Duke Lacrosse case. We had a case here in PA, where a State Trooper murdered the lover of his female, and upon conviction, it was stated the death penalty was being waved, in part, because of his service to the State.

Forgive me, but, If you are LE, and you commit a crime, you should be held to a higher standard, not a lower one.

In PA, if you spit on a cop, its automatically simple assault, if you spit on a civilian, its NOTHING, not disorderly conduct, NOTHING!

I know, because it happened to me in a road rage incident.

I say this, research Sir Robert Peels rules for the police, if you don't know who he is, he helped found the Metropolitian London Police in the Mid 1800's, they are considered the first "Real" Municipal police department, and he set down guidelines on how to make the police acceptable to the people they are supposed to protect.

Prior to this, most LE was handled by local Constables, or Sheriffs.

And, the Constable was, just one of the people, police were meant to be the people, and not to become someone above the level of everyone else, IE, put on Tier, given weapons that the public didn't have, and protected beyond the scope of anyone else in society.

Now, LE can buy and carry a machine gun, if the department permits, and for the most part, and individual citizen cannot. The 2nd A allows us lowly citizens the right to protect ourselves from an oppressive government, but go ahead and shoot a cop, coming through your door, in a no knock raid on the wrong apartment, and I guarantee, with no exceptions, you are going to jail, even though we are constitutionally protected from an illegal search, which, is exactly what it is.

Just a week or two ago in Arizona, a "SUSPECTED" drug dealer was shot DEAD when the police broke down the door and saw him, SAW HIM, with an AR15 rifle, they claimed he shot, but, it was shown he never did fire at them.

Nothing was found in the search, but we have a dead citizen, and again, I guarantee, no cop will suffer legal sanctions for this.

This is MURDER, plain and simple. Justified by the "war on drugs". Is it fair that a cop goes to jail for shooting an innocent citizen? I know this, if a few did, a hell of alot more would make damn sure the guy was actually a danger before pulling the trigger, and MORE importantly, a whole HELL of alot more would think about why exactly they need to knock down a door, for a useless, losing "war on drugs" if the entire Justice System didn't have their ass covered for any crime they committed, under the guise of being "Police".

I even go as far as stating, the Police as we know it, are no longer even a part of the civilian government as it was originally intended, they have replaced the Militia as it was envisioned by the founders, as a quasi arm of the Federal Government, the Feds say go after drugs, they do, the Feds say don't go after immigrants, or we will sue you, or you will not do so.

They are acting directly in the interests of the Feds, basically, at their general command, and are quickly becoming an arm of an "Oppressive Government".

If, these thousands of good guys you say exist, when does it become morally reprehesnsible for them to participate?

When they are ordered to disarm Katrina Survivors?

When they murder innocents, because they may be doing something only the Federal government sees as wrong? Such as the war on drugs? Too many states have made Cannabis legal, which it should be, directly against the orders of the Feds? Should State police refuse to arrest drug users if the state makes them legal?

Our local police were never intended to enforce federal law, but they do it every day, from seat belts, formerly to speed limits, and for decades now, against drugs.

Look at the title of this thread.

Since when can the police break down your door, and shoot you, because you MAY be a suspect?

Since when can the police break down your door, and shoot you, when you are completely innocent, and its just a mistaken address on the warrant?

Since when are we no longer able to protect ourselves in our homes, if a prosecutor thinks you shouldn't have that right?

Or when a judge sentences you for it?

IT can happen today, and if its YOU shot, or killed, you have no legal recourse to stop it, or see the people who did it in jail.

Is this REALLY the type of society we want to live in?

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Re: Since when can cops detain motorists for obeying the law

Post by continuity » Wed Jun 15, 2011 9:31 am

frick wrote:Continuity, the real poison to our police is coming from within to some extent, but, its a cancer that exists in all tiers or our Justice System...
There are, and always will be, abuses of authority on most every level. Spousal, work place, local, state, and Fed gov't. We agree that the instances of legal system abuses are disconcerting. Having said that, they have always happened. The information networks of today just make us more acutely aware in real time. The awareness of those instances is one tool that can be used to correct them.
frick wrote:Forgive me, but, If you are LE, and you commit a crime, you should be held to a higher standard, not a lower one...
In Ohio at least, this is exactly what the law provides for. LEO's will be charged at one level higher than non-LEO for the same transgression. Training reinforces that LEO's are responsible at a higher level for their on, and off duty, behavior.

frick wrote:Now, LE can buy and carry a machine gun, if the department permits,...
A department can issue Class 3 (machine gun, SBR, SBS, etc.), but the items ownership must remain with the department. Personal LEO purchases are still subject to NFA regulation.
frick wrote:I even go as far as stating, the Police as we know it, are no longer even a part of the civilian government as it was originally intended,...
Most local department, Sheriff's office, LEO do live in the area they are commissioned in. I can verify that in my office, the Sheriff IS the highest legal authority. Anyone that believes differently, including the FED's, that from time to time come to execute warrants, are in for an awakening. Any Fed warrants served in this county are served with a Deputy(s) present. Was present when an out of county group attempted to make a residence search under authority of an arrest warrant. After a bit of unpleasantness, the out of county group collected their assorted toys, got back in their vehicles and left without a search/door breaching happening. Does this happen everywhere? Apparently not, but there are those places that the law is respected.

frick wrote:If, these thousands of good guys you say exist, when does it become morally reprehesnsible for them to participate?...
I have witnessed refusal to execute an unlawful direction. And it stood. Swept under the carpet a little, but it stood. On the Federal level relative the Ruby Ridge incident of fame, the initial sniper team refused the assignment.
frick wrote:IT can happen today, and if its YOU shot, or killed, you have no legal recourse to stop it, or see the people who did it in jail...
Is life always fair? NO. Freedom is not free. If non-legal behavior places us at risk, WE (You and me) are responsible for addressing that risk. Will things always go the way we want them to? No. Conducting oneself in a manner that reduces contact with negative situations will give one the higher moral ground if the need to address a negative situation arises.

I know that I may die in a violent way. Should that happen, I will do my best to go out like a man, with the knowledge that when I meet my Maker, He will not smack me.

Having said all that, It would be intellectually dishonest to pretend I don't understand your point of view. You have some good points. It seems appropriate to temper your angst. My thought is that there is still more good than bad in our governments. It is our responsibility to effect our spheres of influence to the ends that keep it so or better it. Get involved. Run for office. Start at the school board level.

Peace.
What amount of a man is composed of his own collection of experiences... and the conclusions that those experiences have allowed him to "know" for certain as "Truth"? :Ick

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Re: Since when can cops detain motorists for obeying the law

Post by wyoguy » Wed Jun 15, 2011 11:34 am

+ 1

Well Stated...

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Re: Since when can cops detain motorists for obeying the law ?

Post by dark2023 » Mon Feb 09, 2015 8:03 pm

The point was to file a complaint. The cop obviously did not want me to file a complaint. He tried to intimidate me into leaving. It is unfortunate cops don't know the laws they attempt to enforce.
I nearly got arrested once for carrying a microtech knife, which is perfectly legal in my state. I had to cite the specific state law that allowed it as the cops were sure "switchblades are illegal son".

What really pissed me off was when one of the cops told me they are only legal if you have a military ID. First off, it's legal to anyone in my state, secondly a military ID does not allow you to break the law or give you special, above the law, privileges unless you are on base and currently on duty.
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Re: Since when can cops detain motorists for obeying the law ?

Post by ThaDoubleJ » Mon Feb 09, 2015 11:56 pm

Hmmm, can put your shovel back in the shed, no more digging up old, dead threads.
Proper grammar is awesome.

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Re: Since when can cops detain motorists for obeying the law ?

Post by continuity » Tue Feb 10, 2015 3:57 pm

dark2023 wrote:... What really pissed me off was when one of the cops told me they are only legal if you have a military ID. First off, it's legal to anyone in my state, secondly a military ID does not allow you to break the law or give you special, above the law, privileges unless you are on base and currently on duty.
While I'm in DoubleJ's camp, no problem addressing outta left field s--t.

Dark, you seem to have left out the reason for your initial contact with "the cops" relative your rant. Were you playing the fool? Did that contact have anthing to do with (gasp) your inappropriate display of a... deadly weapon? You may be pissed off, but in my experience anyway, and as you present things, your post sounds like you were looking for trouble... and it found you.

In addition, your post has nothing to do with the original OP. Guessing you're on probation. Don't be a tool. You push this and I'll make a hobby of owning you.
What amount of a man is composed of his own collection of experiences... and the conclusions that those experiences have allowed him to "know" for certain as "Truth"? :Ick

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Re: Since when can cops detain motorists for obeying the law ?

Post by dark2023 » Tue Feb 10, 2015 6:29 pm

While I'm in DoubleJ's camp, no problem addressing outta left field s--t.

Dark, you seem to have left out the reason for your initial contact with "the cops" relative your rant. Were you playing the fool? Did that contact have anthing to do with (gasp) your inappropriate display of a... deadly weapon? You may be pissed off, but in my experience anyway, and as you present things, your post sounds like you were looking for trouble... and it found you.

In addition, your post has nothing to do with the original OP. Guessing you're on probation. Don't be a tool. You push this and I'll make a hobby of owning you.
Thanks for accusing me of being a criminal, speaking of being tool. Also, I really love how you accused me of looking for trouble with no previous knowledge of the situation. Do you regularly blame and accuse people with no basis, or is it just your time of the month?

I was in no way behaving incorrectly, I had done nothing wrong and no one I was with had either.
This was routine traffic stop, due to the car I was a passenger in having only 1 headlite at the time. However it went too far as the local police decided to go on a fishing expedition.

As far as being out of left field, the original poster was talking about cops having no idea of the law they are expected to enforce, my story is just a quick example of yet the same type of incident.


If you are so interested in the full story I will link to another forum I am a part of, where I explain it fully, as not to take up too much room here.
http://www.talkblade.info/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=23277


I did not realize when I originally posted in the topic, quite how old it was. It was still on the front page in it's respective area so I just assumed it was still active or recent.
A gun is meant to protect your life, not your wallet. Things can be replaced, people cant.

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