Liberals

2nd Amendment and Freedom

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edteach
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Re: Liberals

Post by edteach »

doubloon wrote:en masse ... but still out of context.

Don't a lot of people in this country need food and shelter too?

If we're going to force people to pay for social health care why not force people to pay for groceries and everyone is forced the same thing? Except, of course, the elite oligarchy that is establishing the rules of who pays for and gets what.

Let everyone live in the same government provided ticky-tacky houses in the suburbs ... barracks for everyone!

Why not rationalize away all your freedoms all at once like "pulling off the bandaid".
You use the false choice and its a very poor argument that anyone can take apart. First off we have government health care, its called Medicare and Medicaid and when anyone talks about getting rid of it its called the third rail, which means that the older citizens love it and will vote against anyone who tries to destroy it. Remember Paul Ryan? You also give the false choice of having an elite group tell us how to live, but you then fight for an elite group of wealthy wall street and corporate oligarchies to dictate who is to be in office by lobbying for laws that favor the corporation and could give a damn about the individual. Oh ya the supreme court said that a corporation is an individual. LOL. The tea baggers then fight for the same corporations to give unlimited money to campaign's so as to make the individuals voice so weak as to not be heard. Ohh you want to have laws weakened so you can pump crap into the air and you will give my campaign half a mill? With out regulation a builder could put up inferior homes that would blow down in the first good storm and well as long as they made a profit who gives a s--t if some kid got crushed, at least he/she was born, after all we only care about the goo in the womb not a kid that is born. And they should have built a better home if they wanted to be protected from storms. They could swing a hammer right? LOL your argument is sophomoric at best. :mrgreen:
People in this country have to make a choice about putting food on the table today or buying health care for a need that is possible tomorrow. So according to your ideas, we should get rid of public schools, library's, the police ect. Let people hire their own police force if they want secuirty, after all there is nothing about a police or fire dept. in the constitution right? Get rid of the post office even though Ben Franklin was the first PMG. If you want a letter delivered you can do it yourself.

If you get rid of public schools then you can teach your kid that the earth is 6000 years old, and we are all in a state of sin because a woman who was talked into eating a piece of fruit that dispenced knowledge who was made from the rib of a man who was made of mud got us into this mess. LOL REALLY? And you think evoloution has flaws? Remember Gravity is only a theory also. LOL
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doubloon
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Re: Liberals

Post by doubloon »

edteach wrote:...
You use the false choice and its a very poor argument that anyone can take apart. ...
I'm aware of Medicaid, Medicare, my arguments are no more false than your inane, long winded ramblings and you haven't succeeded in taking anything apart. My response is not "false choice", it is Reductio Ad Absurdum because I have no respect for the content of the ramble you posted.

You lump social security, Medicare, Medicaid, libraries (even though you can't spell it), public schools (even though you did not specify public), fire departments (you neglected to mention VFDs) and USPS all in the same category then compare people you can't even identify ("tea baggers") to Luddites.

You talk about not wanting someone to buy C4 at a swap meet but you completely ignore the fact that the average Joe with have a wit and access to the internet can find the materials to make his own explosives comparable to C4. Prohibition is not a solution, silly, silly argument.

You make a number of incomplete, pompous arguments that make it clear you believe you are always the smartest person in the room who knows how to make choices for everyone else better than they can make choices for themselves. Your "solutions" are not.

In short, your post has no real content.

But if you want to have a constructive conversation about any of the topics in the jumble you created I'm sure you will find many willing participants on this board.
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edteach
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Re: Liberals

Post by edteach »

It does not really fall under reductio ad absurdum, its a false choice, we either have nothing socialized or we have the government make all our choices for us. You talk like Sara Palin where its either freedom of the government telling us how many calories we can eat. Not true and a false choice. With you its either freedom or the government telling us when to die and the lie about death panels that never existed. Its a lie and a false choice. Do you really think that volunteer fire Dept's would work to take the place of the system we have? Don't you understand that VFDs are for places that do not have any money for a real FD? How professional would a VFD really be in situations other than a burning mobile home? When knowledge of complex situations would be need and you have a fire chief who was a Walmart door greeter? How about a VPD where we had hostage negotiations by a Target cashier? Now thats reductio ad absurdum.

You go as far as saying that C4 or explosives should not be regulated because they can be made from common materials. Even though its true that ANFO and diesel fuel can make a bomb like the one that destroyed the Murrow building in OC it does not mean that regulation is not needed. Just how far would you go with that stupid analogy? How about owning nukes? These are arms are they not covered by the second amendment? You then throw out a dismissal with no basis and I can simply do the same dismiss your statement in the same way. I have made my points and you have made character assignations, this is done ad homonym attacks when the attacker feels threatened by the lack of strength of their argument. Its done right before the threat of kicking someones ass. LOL Your attack of how I think I am smarter than you is another give away that you feel that your argument is weak and you have to try to dismiss the person not the argument in an attempt to take attention away from your weak points. Another common way is to pick out a type O and focus on that instad of any point to argue. The next thing is usually a few your mama must have been a crack whore or some such nonsense.
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Re: Liberals

Post by driver6814 »

Whew, and here I thought some of you gents were long winded.
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Re: Liberals

Post by ick »

Personally I find that anyone that makes a statement like "let the government run it, they can do it better" apparently hasn't been paying much attention. Smaller government is the solution.

In the areas where government MUST act on our behalf... like national defense for example... it often operates so poorly that it is an embarrassment... but things like the national defense MUST be centralized. Ask any soldier today, they are the best our country has to offer... and THEY can assure you of what lunacy goes on in our federal system of national defense.

In areas where the government does operate a heavy hand... health care is a great example.... everything gets screwed up for this very reason. Lack of competition and government barriers to free market entry, massive entitlements, disconnecting costs AND consequences from the actual person FUNDING the whole process.... is absolutely insane.

Don't get me wrong, I don't want people starving in the streets.... but taking money from 50% of the population in order to give it to failed banks, failed car companies, lazy clueless people, or someone who has failed to plan for their own retirement, or to give it to the other 50% is just retarded. In fact it is COUNTER PRODUCTIVE. It devolves society.

You know what we took in for federal revenues in 2010? $2,163 billion dollars... only a few billion less than just a few years ago. Do you know what we SPENT in 2010? $3,456 billion, which would have been an absolutely astronomical RECORD in spending except that we spent $3,518 billion in 2009! In case you didn't notice you could increase federal revenue by 50% and it STILL wouldn't equal what we spend.

That is just moronic. Sorry. If you think the federal government is the answer to our problems then you are either an idiot , you haven't been paying attention, or you are Rumpelstiltskin.

In any of the three cases it is time to wake up.
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Re: Liberals

Post by driver6814 »

How much did WE spend in the middle east fighting terrorism last year?
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edteach
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Re: Liberals

Post by edteach »

You present no facts and only slanderous statements, so they can be dismissed without any reason. But I will offer my facts to back up what I have said.
Fact, no one is advocating socialized health care, this would be where the nurses and Dr's get a check from the government and work directly for the FED. What most Americans who want a fair health care for all are advocating is a socialized health insurance plan. This is where profit is take out of the system and every one pays in like Social Security or Medicare which are very very popular programs. So popular that in fact it would be suicide for any one to try to destroy them, I.E. Paul Ryan. Canada and Australia and Japan are examples of this system that is very viable and works much better than our system.
Fact, this socialized insurance will not result in the Republican lie of rationing, and in fact we have rationing in the USA today. Its based on income. If you have money you can have all the care you can buy. 18000 Americans die each year because they have no money or not enough for some expensive procedures and or no health care. Some even die because the health care insurance providers ration what kind of care they will pay for. many will just do not get treatment because they can not afford and their insurance company's will not pay for treatment, this is rationing and this is why in places like Canada some elective procedures are a get in line and wait your turn. Its because every one has access to health care, America has taken out 50 million or more people out of line, so the people with the money go to the front of the line. This is the same as saying you can get a heart transplant if you are the high bidder on organbay auctions. In the current US health care system rationing is carried out by financial ability, either denying people care or putting many into bankruptcy.

The idea that government will make the decision for you and your doctor is another republican lie. Medicare is one of the most popular plans in the USA and those on it even the touted Ian Rand who denounced it then took SS and Medicare to take care of her lung cancer that she got from smoking six packs a day. Should she not have taken her own advice and just went and died quietly in the corner of her home if she could not afford to get treatment? I guess when its you who is sick then its another story.
Fact currently over 60% of health care is paid for my government spending as per 2005 [more now] so what would be the problem with taking everyone into a gov. insurance plan and everyone pays something?

The United States is the only industrialized country in the world without a universal
health insurance system.1
• In 2006, the U.S. census reported that 46 million Americans (recently revised downward
to 45 million) have no health insurance.2
• “Over a third (36%) of families living below the poverty line are uninsured. Hispanic
Americans (34%) are more than twice as likely to be uninsured as white Americans,
(13%) while 21% of black Americans have no health insurance.”3
• More than 9 million children lack health insurance in America.4
• Eighteen thousand people die each year because they are uninsured.5
• According to the UN Human Development Report, “The uninsured are less likely to have
regular outpatient care, so they are more likely to be hospitalized for avoidable health
problems. Once in hospital, they receive fewer services and are more likely to die in the
hospital than are insured patients. They also receive less preventive care. Over 40% of
the uninsured do not have a regular place to go when they are sick and over a third of the
uninsured say that they or someone in their family went without needed care, including
recommended treatments or prescription drugs in the last year, because of cost.”6
• Half of all bankruptcies are caused by medical bills. Three-quarters of those filings are
people with health insurance.7
• U.S. health care spending is approximately $2 trillion per year, or $6,697 per person.8
The United States continues to spend significantly more on health care than other
countries in the world.9
• Administrative costs account for 31 percent of all health care expenditures in the United
States. The average overhead for U.S. private health insurers is 11.7 percent; for
Medicare, it is 3.6 percent; for Canada’s national health insurance program, it is 1.3
percent.10
• According to the UN Human Development Report, while the United States leads the
world in spending on health care, “countries spending substantially less than the US have
2
healthier populations.… The infant mortality rate for the U.S. is now higher than for
many other industrial countries.”11
• A baby born in El Salvador has a better chance of surviving than a baby in Detroit.
The infant mortality rate in Detroit is 15.5, compared to El Salvador's rate of 9.7.12
• Canadians live three years longer on average than we do.13
• A study in the Journal of the American Medical Association found that older
Americans are significantly less healthy than their British counterparts - we have
more diabetes, heart attacks, strokes, lung disease and cancer. Even the poorest Brits
can expect to live longer than the richest Americans.14
• Cubans have a lower infant mortality rate than the United States and according to the
U.N. Human Development Report, a longer average lifespan.15
• Over the next decade, the federal government will give the drug and health care
industries an estimated $822 billion as a result of the 2003 enactment of Medicare Part D
(the Medicare prescription drug plan).16
• There are four times as many health care lobbyists in Washington as there are members
of Congress.17
• Ninety percent of Americans believe the American health care system needs fundamental
changes or needs to be completely rebuilt. Two-thirds of Americans believe the federal
government should guarantee universal health care for all citizens.18
NOTES
1 The Impact of Health Insurance Coverage on Health Disparities in the United States, Human Development
Report, UNDP, 2005; Universal Health Insurance in the United States: Reflections on the Past, the Present, and the
Future. American Journal of Public Health; http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articl ... id=1447684
2 http://www.census.gov/prod/2006pubs/p60-231.pdf This figure was recently revised downward to 44.8 million due
to a computer programming error.
3 The Impact of Health Insurance Coverage on Health Disparities in the United States, Human Development
Report, UNDP, 2005.
4 The Great Divide: When Kids Get Sick, Insurance Matters, Families USA Publication No. 07-102, February 2007.
5 Insuring America’s Health: Principles and Recommendations, Institute of Medicine, January 2004.
http://www.iom.edu/?id=19175
6 The Impact of Health Insurance Coverage on Health Disparities in the United States, Human Development
Report, UNDP, 2005
7 “Illness and Injury as Contributors to Bankruptcy,” Himmelstein et al, Health Affairs, February 2, 2005.
8 Catlin, A, C. Cowan, S. Heffler, et al, “National Health Spending in 2005.” Health Affairs 26:1 (2006).
9 OECD, in Figures 2006-2007 Health Spending and Resources.
http://ocde.p4.siteinternet.com/publica ... 061T02.xls.
10 Steffie Woolhandler, M.D., M.P.H., Terry Campbell, M.H.A., and David U. Himmelstein, M.D., Costs of Health
Care Administration, N Engl J Med 2003;349:768-75.
11 The Impact of Health Insurance Coverage on Health Disparities in the United States, Human Development
Report, UNDP, 2005.
3
12 http://www.infantmortprogram.org/stats.asp
13 World Health Organization, 2004 statistics.
14 James Banks, PhD; Michael Marmot, MD; Zoe Oldfield, MSc; James P. Smith, PhD, “Disease and Disadvantage
in the United States and in England” JAMA 2006; 295:2037-2045; Alan Cowell, “Study Says Older Americans Are
Less Healthy Than British,” New York Times, May 3, 2006
15 UN Human Development Report, 2006. http://hdr.undp.org/hdr2006/pdfs/report ... mplete.pdf
16 Congressional Budget Office, http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/77xx/doc7731 ... utlook.pdf
17 Opensecrets.org (registered health/drug industry lobbyists)
18 http://www.cbsnews.com/htdocs/CBSNews_p ... h_care.pdf
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Re: Liberals

Post by doubloon »

edteach wrote:It does not really fall under reductio ad absurdum, its a false choice, we either have nothing socialized or we have the government make all our choices for us. ...
Sigh ... pay attention. I did not present two choices I took your lame "the government must do something to provide for the less fortunate" argument and applied it to all citizens across the board for food, shelter and more. All the choices I presented were the same ... maximize socialism.

Seriously, you're attacking the integrity of volunteer firefighters and saying they're only qualified to piss on mobile home fires? I see you're still not interested in a serious discussion.

What I said about regulation was it doesn't solve all your problems and it doesn't prevent all crime but you can try to twist it into whatever you want.

Let me know when you're serious otherwise I'm going to have to put you on the ignore list with dudz1. Hmmm ... are the two of you buddies? Are you a shill for dudz1 or is this dudz1's troll account?
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Re: Liberals

Post by doubloon »

edteach wrote:... every one pays in like Social Security or Medicare which are very very popular programs. ...
This has got to be one of the all time stupidest things I've ever read on the internet.
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edteach
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Re: Liberals

Post by edteach »

doubloon wrote:
edteach wrote:It does not really fall under reductio ad absurdum, its a false choice, we either have nothing socialized or we have the government make all our choices for us. ...
Sigh ... pay attention. I did not present two choices I took your lame "the government must do something to provide for the less fortunate" argument and applied it to all citizens across the board for food, shelter and more. All the choices I presented were the same ... maximize socialism.

Seriously, you're attacking the integrity of volunteer firefighters and saying they're only qualified to piss on mobile home fires? I see you're still not interested in a serious discussion.

What I said about regulation was it doesn't solve all your problems and it doesn't prevent all crime but you can try to twist it into whatever you want.

Let me know when you're serious otherwise I'm going to have to put you on the ignore list with dudz1. Hmmm ... are the two of you buddies? Are you a shill for dudz1 or is this dudz1's troll account?
Misdirection, never said that VFF were unqualified to fight some fires, What I am saying is that it is like a a high school or college football team and a professional team. Not that they both do not try and some college members may be as good as some pro members but as a whole they are not. FACT. No one ever said the Gov can prevent all things, what progressives do say is that only the central Gov. is big enough to take care of some problems. FACT. Billy bob in the Oklahoma militia is not going to be able to take care of a situation needed in some real war. FACT. only the central gov is big enough to take care of mass disasters. Like what hit the east coast. FACT like the health care system of Medicaid where private insurance company’s do not cover elderly so the Central gov. stepped in to create a system that is loved by most all the elderly, also Medicaid and the VA.

I never attacked the integrity of any of the VF people or any Volunteer. But its also a fact that people who are regulated and paid for what they know are many times much better at what they do than someone who is a part time unpaid helper.
You seem to want to also focus on your misrepresentation of what a false choice is so you must not feel very confident of your ability to argue your points as you have really no points. Other wise why would you go back so far in the post to bring up a side point that is not central to the argument?
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edteach
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Re: Liberals

Post by edteach »

doubloon wrote:
edteach wrote:... every one pays in like Social Security or Medicare which are very very popular programs. ...
This has got to be one of the all time stupidest things I've ever read on the internet.
CNN included a Social Security question in a round of polling, and found that some share the idea that it's unconstitutional - which Rick Perry has intimated but not explicitly said - but most voters like the program:

Eight in 10 Americans think Social Security has been good for the country, with 70 percent of young adults agreeing and almost nine in 10 senior citizens saying the same.



Read more: http://www.politico.com/news/stories/09 ... z1aOxeAvn7

I think your statement was on of the dumbest things I have read in a while. You will have to argue with your self. I have made my points and to argue with you would be to argue with a brick wall and I do not have the time or desire to do it.
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ick
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Re: Liberals

Post by ick »

You pilfer words from others as if they are your own prose and couple that with a lack of understanding.

Let me give you a few examples:
edteach wrote:The United States is the only industrialized country in the world without a universal health insurance system.1
This statement, more than anything else you typed... shows that you have no independent thought. But everyone else is doing it? What is this, a kid arguing with a parent as to why he can't get a BB gun for Christmas when every other kid in the neighborhood has one? Here again, if the rest of the world has shown us anything....it is that other countries are NOT the standard. The United States in and of itself is unique. You can keep your European socialism in EUROPE. No thanks. Time to wake up.

Almost everything else you typed shows EXACTLY why government is not the answer. There is no other industry like health insurance where GOVERNMENT has chosen a few key players and barred everyone else from entry and PREVENTS competition. Is there another industry with so much lobbyist influence? Not even oil and gas compare... which is evidence that GOVERNMENT IS NOT THE ANSWER. Is there any other industry with such a huge government buyer of old-age health care? No, just more evidence that making a gargantuan system even bigger is the WRONG MOVE. Start allowing insurance company competition between and over state lines and you actually have meaningful reform. More people on a government program is NOT the answer and you have to know that already. Why you don't acknowledge it I don't know.
edteach wrote: • According to the UN Human Development Report, while the United States leads the
world in spending on health care, “countries spending substantially less than the US have
healthier populations.… The infant mortality rate for the U.S. is now higher than for
many other industrial countries.”
• A baby born in El Salvador has a better chance of surviving than a baby in Detroit.
The infant mortality rate in Detroit is 15.5, compared to El Salvador's rate of 9.7.12
• Canadians live three years longer on average than we do.13
• A study in the Journal of the American Medical Association found that older
Americans are significantly less healthy than their British counterparts - we have
more diabetes, heart attacks, strokes, lung disease and cancer. Even the poorest Brits
can expect to live longer than the richest Americans.14
• Cubans have a lower infant mortality rate than the United States and according to the
U.N. Human Development Report, a longer average lifespan.15
I suspect that you KNOW many of these reports are completely bunk. Set aside for a moment that we have the fattest population in wold history for a variety of reasons which contributes to every conveniently gleaned statistic you have here... the infant mortality claims have been shown to be baseless or statistically explainable. More children live past childbirth here than any other nation... only to die days later and counted in the UN report claiming "the USA has higher mortality rates". What do they do in other countries? Don't count them, don't have the medicine system to get the child to birth, or abort female and problem babies because of a "one child" policy. No thanks.

Shall I also borrow someone else's words as you have? This ought to blow your mind. Read this:

http://www.sj-r.com/opinions/x169960943 ... h-care-lie

Suffice to say she is too skinny, crass, rude, and inappropriate... but much to my dismay SHE IS RIGHT. So stick that "worst health care system in the world" crap up your wazoo. We both know it is a fabrication. I know it to be true from personal experience.

Cuba? What a laugh. You can't see the ridiculous characteristic of this claim you made about Cuba? Really?

Tell you what, lets you and I get our savings together start our own insurance company devoid of profit motive and have a go at it. Oh, wait, the government that is so wonderful has the system constructed to prevent that from happening? Guess too bad for us, we could have made some money.

The very thing you cry,

"government, save me!",

is the VERY CAUSE of the problems.

Good GOD man. Stop looking for government to solve all of your problems.
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Re: Liberals

Post by doubloon »

ick wrote:...
Good GOD man. Stop looking for government to solve all of your problems.
Not going to happen.
edteach wrote:... only the central gov is big enough to take care of mass disasters. ...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDtd2jNIwAU MUSAFAR!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8CrOL-ydFMI This is Water DavidW
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Re: Liberals

Post by BretJ »

He reminds me of cat people. He wants to save all the poor, wild cats and begins to take in scores of them "for their own good". After a period of time he begins to run out of resources but still takes in more and more. Then after a time, the cats he has "sheltered" are living in utter squalor and are in worse condition than if he had left them alone in the first place..... :roll:
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Re: Liberals

Post by TROOPER »

sduz1 wrote:and when you let your party take down the govt on aug 2 watch what it does to your 401k, your cash, your credit cards,mortgage, and your way of living you sanctimonious son of a bitch. the real answer to my previous post is you don't know what i'm talking about and glenn beck and sara didn't cover that yet for you. on aug 2 it's your kind that will blindly lead us to disaster because all you wan't is to be right not practicle- you are cutting your nose to spite your face and while the rest of us are very nervous you and your ilk think your position is what causing us to be nervous. its not, it's the consequence of your position. it's like drunk driving on the freeway at rush hour, your convinced you can do it and aim to prove it no matter who is hurt- on behalf of myself and the rest of the nervous, give me the keys and go F--k yourself
Hey... check this out. We rarely get to do stuff like this in hindsight, but we sure have hindsight now.

"our party" caved in to Obama -- you got your wish, and Obama got his wish. A government shut-down was averted.

Except that it wasn't a government shut down which hurt investment vehicles, it was an Obama victory that caused a reduction in America's credit rating.

Did you see that? Obama won, and America lost. The GOP lost, and your investments lost.

You and your kind were all terrified of the GOP, but we LOST. The GOP LOST THAT SKIRMISH... AND AMERICA LOST BECAUSE OF IT.

So now answer, liberal, who was really fighting for America? How can an Obama victory hurt America? How is it that a GOP defeat was also an American defeat?
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Re: Liberals

Post by yellowfin »

Something to consider when looking at politicians who pretend to care for the poor: they intend to recruit YOU as part of that constituency. They don't want poor people to have more money, they want there to be more of them in their voting districts, according to a very good article by two Harvard economists:

http://www.economics.harvard.edu/facult ... effect.pdf

Economic destruction while bad for everyone else is very, very good for certain political ideological groups and their bosses.
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Re: Liberals

Post by CaribouLou45 »

Abortion isn't an effen religious thing. It's a scientific thing.

A cell is living
An zygote is a fertilized cell
A human zygote is a baby cell
A baby cell is a baby living

It's effen disgusting murder. People need to stop treating their bodies like a zoo and lying to themselves that they are not killing someone.
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Re: Liberals

Post by yellowfin »

ick wrote:Almost everything else you typed shows EXACTLY why government is not the answer.
The states of California, New York, and Massachusetts illustrate especially vividly why government is the problem--the worst part is, though, that the governments of those states ENJOY being the problem.
There is no other industry like health insurance where GOVERNMENT has chosen a few key players and barred everyone else from entry and PREVENTS competition.
Unfortunately, NY and MA have it down to a science and apply it to many industries, in the case of NY probably every one of them. They purposefully tax and regulate to drive businesses out of the state and/or bankrupt and craft it in such a way as that the largest already existing ones which they like remain, with their competition conveniently weeded out. The labor laws and health insurance laws in NY are crafted in such a way as to kill small businesses and practically everything that isn't unionized--think that's a coincidence?
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Re: Liberals

Post by Dweezil »

A couple things, On the humanity of the unborn: Visibly pregnant woman drives alone in the commuter lane during rush hour. Does she get out of the ticket for HOV lane violation?

Also, All military medicine, all VA Healthcare and all Indian Healthcare is classic socialized medicine. Interesting that our war fighters received socialized medicine. Try taking that away and see who riots in the streets.
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doubloon
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Re: Liberals

Post by doubloon »

CaribouLou45 wrote:...
A cell is living
An zygote is a fertilized cell
A human zygote is a baby cell
A baby cell is a baby living
...
About the strongest argument I've ever heard (seen) for life starts at conception. Needs a little wordsmithing to reverberate.

Even so, I'll stick to my current working definition. It may be a living cell but it's not a full fledged person until it can survive outside the womb without artificial support. Pulling the plug on a brain dead invalid is not murder it's mercy.

The zygote-cell argument makes all human stem cells babys.
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Re: Liberals

Post by doubloon »

Dweezil wrote:... Interesting that our war fighters received socialized medicine. ...
All organized health care is socialism as is any just about any insurance. Many contributing for the good of a few.

Socialism in and of itself is not inherently evil, it's socialism forced on individuals at the hands of a government that's bad.
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Re: Liberals

Post by Dweezil »

...and if the socialized system is good enough people don't have to be forced into it. We get people at the VA in droves who find that they prefer it to their private insurance. What I find amazing about the whole "healthcare care reform" debate is they have completely ignored those in the VA and military medicine who have the most experience in socialized medicine. Makes absolutely no sense.
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Re: Liberals

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The VA overhaul is relatively recent, that system wasn't worth a crap when my dad was in it back in the 70s & 80s. The VA hospitals were on the verge of shutdown when my dad died in one back in the early 90s. The VA hospital system is not the best example of a socialized system that works for a few reasons. Honorably discharged veterans have earned everything they get from the system and more for the service they gave to this country. Even now after all the success the VA system still has its challenges because of its overwhelming success. Only a few years ago thousands of vets were put at risk from poor sanitation. Even now the VA is slow to respond to special needs. The influx of patients from the past 10 years or so is taking its toll on the system and it probably won't be long before it needs another costly overhaul. As good as the VA is doing compared to 20 years ago it's not doing as well as it could if you put it under a light.

I agree there are "socialized" systems that work but the majority of the examples are profit driven, cooperative businesses not run by the State. When those enterprises become economically unsound they are dissolved or they fail. By far, a greater percentage of the socialized enterprises owned and run by the State are poorly run money pits which are rarely dissolved or allowed to fail, the State just shovels more money in to fill the holes.

There is good reason to ignore VA reform in the Obamacare debates. The VA system is an example of an ongoing cost the People should bear as payment for the men and women who have earned that benefit through the sacrifice they made or were willing to make for the People. Obamacare isn't even remotely the same.

Take a good look as most of the State run enterprises and you'll find more than a fair share of faults.
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Re: Liberals

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Dweezil wrote: Also, All military medicine, all VA Healthcare and all Indian Healthcare is classic socialized medicine. Interesting that our war fighters received socialized medicine. Try taking that away and see who riots in the streets.
VA Healthcare access is part of the compensation package for that profession. This is like your own private-sector employee receiving vision and dental as part of their own compensation package. Furthermore, there is a vested interest in a soldier maintaining a certain level of health. It would be difficult to be an effective soldier with a killer toothache. Furtherfurthermore, what is the alternative? Keeping soldiers healthy by sending them to private enterprises? This is a possibility, but it would cost more to the tax-payer to do it this way, versus the current on-staff system.

Anyway, you clearly haven't heard any good horror stories about VA hospitals if you're touting that as the end-all, be-all of healthcare.

If you think it is that great, enlist.
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Re: Liberals

Post by ick »

TROOPER wrote: Anyway, you clearly haven't heard any good horror stories about VA hospitals if you're touting that as the end-all, be-all of healthcare.
I was having a discussion with a client of mine. He is a doctor in family practice. We were discussing his financial situation and his sources of revenue. He went through the Army ROTC program years ago and is familiar with the system. He now owns his own practice.

When the discussion eventually went to the topic of the VA system his statement to me was something like:

"The care is available... but it has been my observation that the military does NOT take care of their own."

Based on media coverage and innuendo about the prosthetics for wounded soldiers (for example)... you would think it is the end-all be-all. From what I hear, that is not the case.
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