What goes on Trust Schedule A, confirmed by ATF Examiner

[Tall Pine]

Great site fellas. Long time lurker, first time poster. I wanted to contribute something that might help others with this common dilema. Sorry for the length, but I want to fully explain this for all to understand.

I could never get a concrete answer on what to put on my Quicken Willmaker Trust Schedule A. The options were threefold: nothing, the suppressor being applied for, or some other non NFA asset like cash or a book or something. After searching in vain a few weeks I called ATF and spoke directly to the FL examiner Mr. Lamberger (sp?). He told me to spread the word that it is their position that you should NOT include the suppressor being applied for on the Schedule A. He also suggested NOT to leave Schedule A blank, that some asset should be listed. That's it, that is the summary of this post. The logic and reasoning for it, as well as more of the ATF examiner's comments are as follows:

Sch A is just a snapshot of what the Trust was "born with" on the date it was created. Look at the first section of the Quicken trust. It says (paraphrased) "Grantor transfers and delivers to the trustee the property on Sch A...and trustee acknowledges receipt of such property..." If you leave Sch A blank or do not include it, how much sense does that make? You have a big contradiction in your trust paperwork. The Sch A is just a list of what assets you started the Trust with. You only create the Trust once, the date you sign and notarize it, so there can only ever be one list of assets at that one point in time. If you edit Schedule A and put more and more assets on it over time, you are editing a document (Sch A) that was supposed to be a snapshot of that one day in the past. From what I gather from lawyers posts, you instead add property to the trust off the record so to speak. You can create assignment papers for additional property you add to the trust. Its like a sales receipt but no money changing hands. You can also keep an inventory sheet of everything in the trust if you like solely for personal/internal record keeping, so when you die the successor trustee knows what is in the trust. Providing these internal records with your Form 4 are not required by ATF as far as I can tell.

The examiner strongly suggests that the Trust have something on Schedule A, like cash, or a tangible asset, but not the suppressor being applied for (see below). Anything to show the ATF that the Trust was "funded" with some type of asset. Again, look at that first Quicken trust section. It references you transferring property to the Trust and acknowledging receipt. If Schedule A is blank, that would be a big contradiction, and not make any sense. That has probably been the cause of many trust kickbacks.

The examiner finished by saying that the ATF has indeed approved many Form 4's with the suppressor being listed on Sch A. He acknowledged that is probably why so many people think it's the right way to do it. But he noted that this is incorrect, and there is no telling how much longer they would let these slide. He gave more good reasoning. What if ATF denies your application? You have been denied access/possession of the suppressor yet you have given the ATF sworn papers that you transferred a suppressor to a Trust. Not exactly something you want to do. He didn't say it was illegal or anything, just that it was not logical to put the chicken before the egg so to speak. He said it is just a better practice to start the trust with an innocent non-NFA asset like $10 cash or a stereo, than to start it with the suppressor being applied for.

I think thats it, thats all I got. Good luck to all those doing their trusts. It's very easy, not hard at all. I hope this helps you.

Happy Plinkin'
Tall

[2manygunz]

Sch A is just a snapshot of what the Trust was "born with" on the date it was created.

Thanks for the post. This is very helpful info and a wonderful first contribution.

I do want to comment on this particular assertion in the quote. The Schedule A should reflect what the trust owns at any given moment, not be frozen at the time of birth. If you were to leave your schedule A with just the initial $10, then technically the Trust would not have received your NFA items. If you were to pass unexpectedly, a probate lawyer would go off of what is one the Schedule A at the time you died. Your heirs could argue you intended to have NFA items in it, but if they were not on a list a court might argue otherwise.

Also, you are presumably applying for the tax stamp on behalf of the Trust. As such, you are telling BATFE that your trust owns the item. Your Schedule A should evolve with every item you purchase and reflect the items as accumulated.

I understand that an examiner shared the info directly, and it may well be what they understand. I don't think it's a universal rule, however, nor necessarily correct legally.

I am not a lawyer, nor play one on TV. Just going on what the lawyer told me at the time I set up my trust.

[Abiqua]

The Schedule A should reflect what the trust owns at any given moment, not be frozen at the time of birth. If you were to leave your schedule A with just the initial $10, then technically the Trust would not have received your NFA items. If you were to pass unexpectedly, a probate lawyer would go off of what is one the Schedule A at the time you died. Your heirs could argue you intended to have NFA items in it, but if they were not on a list a court might argue otherwise.

Also, you are presumably applying for the tax stamp on behalf of the Trust. As such, you are telling BATFE that your trust owns the item. Your Schedule A should evolve with every item you purchase and reflect the items as accumulated.

^this.
The trust is not valid until funded. The "Assignment of property" is used to place the first item or items into the trust. The Schedule A is the running list of items held in trust. Since the trust does not yet hold the NFA item being applied for until the approved, stamped Form 1/4 is received back from the ATF, you should not place it on the Schedule A until the transfer is completed. I know many people have and will continue to receive stamps when they include the item on their Schedule A.
Standard disclaimer: IANAL nor do I play one on TV or the interweb, this is just how I see it.

[Tall Pine]

Thanks for the feedback. I am not sure how to answer your replies, since the attorneys I have spoken with, and the Trusts I have worked with in my profession, do not continually update the Schedule A and never run into problems with agencies or beneficiaries. But you make valid points that I hope some other posters, and maybe some real trust attorneys can way in on. It will become most important after our first NFA item gets approved and/or when we apply for a 2nd NFA item.

But for now, I think all first time NFA buyers should feel confident with the following:
1. you should include some asset on the Schedule A, and
2. the ATF advises not listing the suppressor being applied for on the Schedule A.

Us newbies have pleny of time to figure the other out during the dismal 6 month wait.

Thanks again,
Tall

[dtom29]

The Schedule A should reflect what the trust owns at any given moment, not be frozen at the time of birth. If you were to leave your schedule A with just the initial $10, then technically the Trust would not have received your NFA items. If you were to pass unexpectedly, a probate lawyer would go off of what is one the Schedule A at the time you died. Your heirs could argue you intended to have NFA items in it, but if they were not on a list a court might argue otherwise.

Also, you are presumably applying for the tax stamp on behalf of the Trust. As such, you are telling BATFE that your trust owns the item. Your Schedule A should evolve with every item you purchase and reflect the items as accumulated.

^this.
The trust is not valid until funded. The "Assignment of property" is used to place the first item or items into the trust. The Schedule A is the running list of items held in trust. Since the trust does not yet hold the NFA item being applied for until the approved, stamped Form 1/4 is received back from the ATF, you should not place it on the Schedule A until the transfer is completed. I know many people have and will continue to receive stamps when they include the item on their Schedule A.Standard disclaimer: IANAL nor do I play one on TV or the interweb, this is just how I see it.

bottom line...you can, and you will be approved. All the other "information" in your letter from your examiner is just his opinion. I "funded" my trust with my first SBR...approved, I have added the item I was seeking approval for to my Schedule"A" in every one of my 11 Forms since then....all approved. He may "think" you shouldn't but as was said " I know many people have and will continue to receive stamps when they include the item on their Schedule A". If you don't want to add it that is fine as you will be approved that way also. Why is there this insistance that it has to be one way? I just get tired of this "YOU CAN'T DO THAT" bullshit.

[Tall Pine]

Why is there this insistance that it has to be one way? I just get tired of this "YOU CAN'T DO THAT" bullshit.

If you're talking about my post being insistant you're way off fella. I am not trying to CHANGE anyone's opinion on how to do it. My post is targeting us newcomers that have no way to decide whether to add it on Sch A or not. Half you guys say add it, half say don't. How else are we to decide? What better info than what I posted---its straight from an ATF Examiner doing the approvals.

Cheer up and relax, you were new to this once too. We are all just trying to get it done right the first time.

[dtom29]

This has been hashed out over and over for literally years. It seems that nobody can understand that IT MAKES NO DIFFERENCE....Someone (who has never sent one in that way) says you can't...they aren't a lawyer, they can't cite an example,they just "heard" that you couldn't and they will argue to the grave that you can't. Then you have people like me(and I'm sure not the only one) who have added the item to the Schedule "A", had it approved multiple times, but you guys believe the first guy. Then you write letters to the BATF,which has proven to be the downfall of more than one good thing when it comes to the BATF and NFA items, and post an "opinion" by one examiner as gospel. When the question was asked nobody told you you MUST put the item in the Schedule "A", you were told that you could. If you didn't feel comfortable doing it that way then you shouldn't have done it that way. Unlike the "you can't do it that way" crowd, those of us that know you can do it that way have never insisted that you HAD to do it our way. Thats where I don't get your confusion. You were offered two ways to get the job done, pick the one that is the most comfortable to you. But don't tell me that "YOU CAN'T DO IT THAT WAY"... cause that is just bullshit.
Do you have any idea what would happen if the BATF would suddenly decide that you can't have the item on your Schedule "A" ? They would be in touch with you to send them a new Schedule "A" without the item on it. This might put you back a week or two....which at 6 months wait should really make a difference....
I'll tell you what, I have two Form 4's pending right now. You send your's in without putting the item into the Schedule "A". Mine were sent with the item already on the Schedule "A". We'll see if they aren't both approved.

[dtom29]

On another note....Once the Trust pays for the NFA item who owns it? I have a "paid in full" receipt.... So the item is added to my Schedule "A" at that time. The BATF says I can't possess it till they approve the transfer, but the former owner no longer owns it. My Trust does.

[dtom29]

On another note, after thinking about it a little I think Mr. Lamberger has approved one of my forms....and they all have included the item in the Schedule"A" when I sent them. I'll look through my forms and see if I am remembering correctly.

[Tall Pine]

dtom29,

You seem very interested in this topic that doesn't even effect you since you KNOW how to do it based on your past 11 experiences. And drop the BS that anyone here said you CANT do it your way, because no one on this thread has. All I did was pass on info told to me FROM THE GOVERNING AUTHORITY and add whatever logic and reasoning they gave to support it.

Your system works for you and that's great. You dont seem to mind if the ATF changes their procedures and kicks yours back for another 2-3 week wait. So why do you care? I know why. You are either a Troll, or just a grumpy $hit.

Good day to everyone else. I hope you can cut through this guys venting BS and just take from my post what was intended.

Tall

[dtom29]

dtom29,

You seem very interested in this topic that doesn't even effect you since you KNOW how to do it based on your past 11 experiences. And drop the BS that anyone here said you CANT do it your way, because no one on this thread has. All I did was pass on info told to me FROM THE GOVERNING AUTHORITY and add whatever logic and reasoning they gave to support it.

Your system works for you and that's great. You dont seem to mind if the ATF changes their procedures and kicks yours back for another 2-3 week wait. So why do you care? I know why. You are either a Troll, or just a grumpy $hit.

Good day to everyone else. I hope you can cut through this guys venting BS and just take from my post what was intended.

Tall

Yep, that's me a 498 post troll....oh, and I checked, your governing authority DID approve one of my forms...on a Trust...with the item added to the Schedule "A" before submitted. Seems your Governing Authority really isn't so sure of just what he's talking about after all.

[Molon.Labe]

Corroborating Tall Pine's post, last year I set up a trust, assigning just my plasma TV to Schedule A, not the silencer I was applying for. Sent the paperwork to ATF in mid-March, got approved by mid-June.

The "Assignment of property" is used to place the first item or items into the trust. The Schedule A is the running list of items held in trust.

This makes sense to me. My question is, how exactly do I add items to the Schedule A? Just open MS Word, type in the silencer make, model, serial number, then print and sign? Schedule A is not even notarized, is it?

[Abiqua]

The "Assignment of property" is used to place the first item or items into the trust. The Schedule A is the running list of items held in trust.

This makes sense to me. My question is, how exactly do I add items to the Schedule A? Just open MS Word, type in the silencer make, model, serial number, then print and sign? Schedule A is not even notarized, is it?

That's all I've done is edit the word doc, and no signature. If you want more security from unauthorized replacement I'd suggest going with a signature at the bottom of the list.

[Buck Nekkid]

So, say, I don't want just anyone disposing of my very first service weapon. Instead of money, could I just list my S&W model 28 .357 magnum serial #yadayada on my Schedule a and that would suffice. I'm submitting a form 1 for an sbr.

[T-Rex]

So, say, I don't want just anyone disposing of my very first service weapon. Instead of money, could I just list my S&W model 28 .357 magnum serial #yadayada on my Schedule a and that would suffice. I'm submitting a form 1 for an sbr.

My understanding:
You would need to legally transfer the firearm into the Trust, for it to be owned by the Trust.

I put a $1 bill as my 1st item on the schedule A. Now the Trust has content with a clear monetary value.

[Buck Nekkid]

Good deal, I'll do the same, Thanks!

[nhm16]

The Schedule A should reflect what the trust owns at any given moment, not be frozen at the time of birth. If you were to leave your schedule A with just the initial $10, then technically the Trust would not have received your NFA items. If you were to pass unexpectedly, a probate lawyer would go off of what is one the Schedule A at the time you died. Your heirs could argue you intended to have NFA items in it, but if they were not on a list a court might argue otherwise.

Also, you are presumably applying for the tax stamp on behalf of the Trust. As such, you are telling BATFE that your trust owns the item. Your Schedule A should evolve with every item you purchase and reflect the items as accumulated.

^this.
The trust is not valid until funded. The "Assignment of property" is used to place the first item or items into the trust.

True, but it depends on the trust agreement. If the language of the trust agreement calls for a schedule A, you probably need one because the danger of not having a schedule A is that you may not have a valid trust. On the other hand, many trust agreements (not specific to NFA) have no requirement that a list of trust property be maintained in a schedule attached to the agreement. If that's the case, no schedule A is required.

Nonetheless, it seems to be common practice for NFA trusts, if only to mollify the ATF examiner. They're not lawyers, but they have the power to approve or deny your form.

The Schedule A is the running list of items held in trust.

Again, that depends on the wording of the trust. It may provide that "the initial trust property is in Schedule A" in which case all you have to put in is the nominal $10, tennis racquet, or whatever to initially fund and create the trust.

On the other hand, the trust may have language requiring the trustee to maintain a running list of items, in which case you generally need to do so. However, failure to do so probably does not invalidate the trust.

It's important to read and understand exactly what the trust agreement calls for. You can't talk about the requirements of a trust in general because every trust is different.

Since the trust does not yet hold the NFA item being applied for until the approved, stamped Form 1/4 is received back from the ATF, you should not place it on the Schedule A until the transfer is completed. I know many people have and will continue to receive stamps when they include the item on their Schedule A.

I generally agree with this reasoning, if the NFA item is transferred on a Form 4.

[F4D]

My form 1 was approved with nothing on the schedule A. Go figure.

[YugoRPK]

Call 20 examiners, get 20 answers. Mines got all my current property on it plus one receiver that the ATF needs to send me a stamp for. They've been fine with it that way for years.

[Dan214]

You're not required to submit a schedule A unless your trust doc calls for it.

Individual assignment sheets are an alternative solution and are used in the better-written trusts. You use one for a nominal ($10 in my case) initial asset transfer, then an additional one for each NFA item you add to your trust.

This way there's no "master" list you have to send to ATF each time you add a new item.

[Theohazard]

I'm a manager at an 07/02 and I've dealt with the ATF long enough to know that what one examiner tells you doesn't always mean that much. I've seen many situations where one examiner approves something and another rejects something that was set up in the exact same way. Over the years our shop has had to change the way we do paperwork as examiners decide to change the way they do things, and that's just how it is.

The only thing that really matters is what works and what doesn't. For example, we were once told by the ATF to put both the trust name and the individual trustee's name under "Transferee' certification" on the back of the Form 4. That worked for a while. Then we were specifically told to put just the individual trustee's name there, and that was the way we did it for many years, and it worked just fine.

But then all of a sudden one examiner started denying those forms. It was just one examiner though; most of our forms were being approved with the same information that the other examiner was denying. We asked the ATF for clarification and they said there was an internal argument in the NFA branch over whether the trust name or the individual trustee's name goes under "Transferee's certification". So they told us to play it safe and just put both. And when we told them that we used to do it that way and our paperwork was denied, they told us just to do it anyway.

So nobody should pay too much attention to what one examiner tells you. What matters is what gets approved and what doesn't. We were originally told to write the NFA item info on the Schedule A and write "pending" after it, and that's what's worked for years. And as long as that works, we'll continue to do it that way until it stops working or the ATF tells us to do it another way.

[rb288]

Not meaning to resurect an old thread, but, I just had a conversation with my gun trust lawyer about this exact question.

My lawyer told me this, very specifically...

1. You do NOT have to send a schedule A along with your trust when you file a form 4. As a matter of fact, the ATF would rather you didn't.

2. You DO need to fill out a schedule A every time you add an NFA item to your trust. That is the only way you officially have a listing of what is actually owned by the trust.

3. The ATF doesn't care what you have in your trust, which is why they don't need a schedule A attached, they already know what your trust has been approved for.

4. If an item is NOT listed on a schedule A as an addition to your trust, it legally may cause problems, when/if, the contents of the trust come before a court.

5. Now, with all that said, each trust is a bit different as far as adding items via a schedule A. With my trust, I add items as I get them by filling a schedule A and having 2 witnesses. I don't need to have it notarized, yours may be different. My original trust document and all schedule A's are kept together as a single "evolving" document in my safe. There are no schedule A's sent anywhere else.

I currently have 7 suppressors and 4 sbrs in my trust and not one time did I ever send in a schedule A with my trust document and form 4, nor have I ever had a form 4 denied for any reason.

[fishman]

Not meaning to resurect an old thread, but, I just had a conversation with my gun trust lawyer about this exact question.

My lawyer told me this, very specifically...

1. You do NOT have to send a schedule A along with your trust when you file a form 4. As a matter of fact, the ATF would rather you didn't.

2. You DO need to fill out a schedule A every time you add an NFA item to your trust. That is the only way you officially have a listing of what is actually owned by the trust.

3. The ATF doesn't care what you have in your trust, which is why they don't need a schedule A attached, they already know what your trust has been approved for.

4. If an item is NOT listed on a schedule A as an addition to your trust, it legally may cause problems, when/if, the contents of the trust come before a court.

5. Now, with all that said, each trust is a bit different as far as adding items via a schedule A. With my trust, I add items as I get them by filling a schedule A and having 2 witnesses. I don't need to have it notarized, yours may be different. My original trust document and all schedule A's are kept together as a single "evolving" document in my safe. There are no schedule A's sent anywhere else.

I currently have 7 suppressors and 4 sbrs in my trust and not one time did I ever send in a schedule A with my trust document and form 4, nor have I ever had a form 4 denied for any reason.

i assume it should be the same for form 1?

[YugoRPK]

Not meaning to resurect an old thread, but, I just had a conversation with my gun trust lawyer about this exact question.

My lawyer told me this, very specifically...

1. You do NOT have to send a schedule A along with your trust when you file a form 4. As a matter of fact, the ATF would rather you didn't.

2. You DO need to fill out a schedule A every time you add an NFA item to your trust. That is the only way you officially have a listing of what is actually owned by the trust.

3. The ATF doesn't care what you have in your trust, which is why they don't need a schedule A attached, they already know what your trust has been approved for.

4. If an item is NOT listed on a schedule A as an addition to your trust, it legally may cause problems, when/if, the contents of the trust come before a court.

5. Now, with all that said, each trust is a bit different as far as adding items via a schedule A. With my trust, I add items as I get them by filling a schedule A and having 2 witnesses. I don't need to have it notarized, yours may be different. My original trust document and all schedule A's are kept together as a single "evolving" document in my safe. There are no schedule A's sent anywhere else.

I currently have 7 suppressors and 4 sbrs in my trust and not one time did I ever send in a schedule A with my trust document and form 4, nor have I ever had a form 4 denied for any reason.

Your lawyer is trying to do good job I'm sure. However... Having filed a few form 4's without schedule A's and having been contacted by the ATF to tell me to send in the schedule A I'm going to say that he is not right all the time. It depends on your state and the wording of your trust.

[Theohazard]

My lawyer told me this, very specifically...

1. You do NOT have to send a schedule A along with your trust when you file a form 4. As a matter of fact, the ATF would rather you didn't.

This is not always true. I have seen many Form 4 submissions rejected by the ATF and sent back for correction because the copy of the trust didn't include a schedule A. I'm guessing that some trusts are written in a way that requires a schedule A, and some aren't. Also, the ATF isn't always consistent in the way they approve things.

In my experience, the instructions that trust lawyers give you are often worthless. Those lawyers probably know how things are supposed to be done, but they don't send in Form 4s for a living like an SOT does, so they don't know how things actually work. They often don't know how the ATF actually operates and what they tend to approve and what they tend to reject.

Like I said in my previous post, in the end it doesn't matter how it's supposed to be done, all that really matters is what the ATF examiner wants and what they will approve.