Got my first form back / ATF doctored it!

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slackercruster
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Got my first form back / ATF doctored it!

Post by slackercruster » Wed Mar 21, 2012 1:26 pm

ATF received my SBR registration on Sept 15, 2011. Finally got it back today...after 6months 6 days. I did it under a trust. Under the trusts name and address I wrote 'U/A/D August 30, 2011' This was when the trust was formed. ATF whited out 'U/A/D August 30, 2011'. I would think the date would be an important identifier, as a similar trust could be named, but would have a different dated date.

Anyway, don't really care. They can white out whatever they like. Just glad to get the first one back. Got 7 more out there. Now got to mail SBR for engraving. It would be something if the SBR gets lost in the mail after all this hassle!

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Re: Got my first form back / ATF doctored it!

Post by Bendersquint » Wed Mar 21, 2012 7:22 pm

slackercruster wrote:ATF received my SBR registration on Sept 15, 2011. Finally got it back today...after 6months 6 days. I did it under a trust. Under the trusts name and address I wrote 'U/A/D August 30, 2011' This was when the trust was formed. ATF whited out 'U/A/D August 30, 2011'. I would think the date would be an important identifier, as a similar trust could be named, but would have a different dated date.

Anyway, don't really care. They can white out whatever they like. Just glad to get the first one back. Got 7 more out there. Now got to mail SBR for engraving. It would be something if the SBR gets lost in the mail after all this hassle!
Date the trust made means nothing, it never should have been put in there. If they wanted to know when it was created there would be a block for it or they would call and ask.

You should have had it engraved when it was a Title1 item, alot easier and alot more people that can work on it.

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Re: Got my first form back / ATF doctored it!

Post by Wahnsinn » Wed Mar 21, 2012 8:24 pm

That's a good question, regarding an SBR, is it still considered Title 1 while in Title 1 "form"? Say for instance you have an AR pistol, you are going to SBR it so you send off the form 1. Form 1 is approved, in hand. The AR is still in pistol form, no stock on it. Is it now considered Title 2 since you have the approved form 1 or is it still Title 1 until you put the stock on there and actually "convert" it to an SBR?

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Re: Got my first form back / ATF doctored it!

Post by Bendersquint » Wed Mar 21, 2012 8:53 pm

Wahnsinn wrote:That's a good question, regarding an SBR, is it still considered Title 1 while in Title 1 "form"? Say for instance you have an AR pistol, you are going to SBR it so you send off the form 1. Form 1 is approved, in hand. The AR is still in pistol form, no stock on it. Is it now considered Title 2 since you have the approved form 1 or is it still Title 1 until you put the stock on there and actually "convert" it to an SBR?
It is title2 as soon as you have the approved Form in hand.

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Re: Got my first form back / ATF doctored it!

Post by rogerme » Thu Mar 22, 2012 2:21 pm

I have what has to be the most butchered form 4 ever approved. Between the dealer and the ATF I still do not believe it came back with a stamp on it. Looks like it was done buy a group of third graders. The stamp and the serial number and my name are all ok so I will take it. I sure was not going to send it back for them to do over...
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Re: Got my first form back / ATF doctored it!

Post by SRM » Sat Mar 24, 2012 8:38 am

rogerme wrote:I have what has to be the most butchered form 4 ever approved. Between the dealer and the ATF I still do not believe it came back with a stamp on it. Looks like it was done buy a group of third graders. The stamp and the serial number and my name are all ok so I will take it. I sure was not going to send it back for them to do over...
That would drive me nuts!!!

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Re: Got my first form back / ATF doctored it!

Post by kalikraven » Sat Mar 24, 2012 9:15 am

It is title2 as soon as you have the approved Form in hand.
Is it really? I thought you could get a refund if you never made the rifle or pistol into a SBR. Is the tax stamp non-refundable after it's issued?
Going a little more discrete here due to some of my opinions...

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Re: Got my first form back / ATF doctored it!

Post by Bendersquint » Sat Mar 24, 2012 11:27 am

kalikraven wrote:
It is title2 as soon as you have the approved Form in hand.
Is it really? I thought you could get a refund if you never made the rifle or pistol into a SBR. Is the tax stamp non-refundable after it's issued?
Yes you can get a refund but until the refund check is issued it is Title2 still. If ATF came looking for it even if you hadn't "converted" it, it would still be accountable as a Title2 firearm. They left the provision in there for a refund if you didn't actually convert it.

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Re: Got my first form back / ATF doctored it!

Post by kalikraven » Sat Mar 24, 2012 12:47 pm

Ok thanks, thats what I thought with reguards to the refund.
Going a little more discrete here due to some of my opinions...

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Re: Got my first form back / ATF doctored it!

Post by TEXMEX » Fri Apr 20, 2012 9:36 pm

Bendersquint wrote:
Wahnsinn wrote:That's a good question, regarding an SBR, is it still considered Title 1 while in Title 1 "form"? Say for instance you have an AR pistol, you are going to SBR it so you send off the form 1. Form 1 is approved, in hand. The AR is still in pistol form, no stock on it. Is it now considered Title 2 since you have the approved form 1 or is it still Title 1 until you put the stock on there and actually "convert" it to an SBR?
It is title2 as soon as you have the approved Form in hand.
A SBR is a Title 2 firearm as soon as you have the approved Form in hand and attach a short barreled upper to the lower. Remove the short barreled upper and you have a Title 1 lower.

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Re: Got my first form back / ATF doctored it!

Post by sub-sonic » Fri Apr 20, 2012 10:02 pm

TEXMEX wrote:
A SBR is a Title 2 firearm as soon as you have the approved Form in hand and attach a short barreled upper to the lower. Remove the short barreled upper and you have a Title 1 lower.
thats fine for the FAL but not for the AR-15 there is the serial number thing thats sort of imprinted on the lower and it seems that number is also in the form and the ATF seems to have it recorded as a SBR

explain how you say its not so
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Re: Got my first form back / ATF doctored it!

Post by glocker17 » Thu May 17, 2012 1:03 am

It appears you can place a 16+" barrel on an SBR and sell it without notification of NFA, the ask you too but don't require it.

From BATFE

Q: I possess a properly registered SBR or SBS. I intend to strip the receiver and remove the barrel prior to selling the receiver. Is the bare receiver still subject to regulation under the NFA as a SBR or SBS?
A stripped receiver without a barrel does not meet the definition of a SBR or SBS under the NFA. Although the previously registered firearm would remain registered unless the possessor notified the NFA Branch of the change, there is no provision in statute or regulation requiring registration of a firearm without a barrel because its physical characteristics would make it only a GCA “firearm” pursuant to 18 U.S.C. § 921(a)(3)(B). If the subsequent owner buys the receiver as a GCA firearm and installs a barrel less than 16 inches in length (SBR) or 18 inches in length (SBS), the firearm would be subject to a $200 making tax and registration under the NFA by the manufacturer or maker of the SBR or SBS. Because registration depends upon the stated intent of the applicant, there is no provision to allow registration of a NFA firearm by anyone other than the maker or manufacturer.

Q: If I remove the short barrel from the registered SBR or SBS, is the receiver still subject to NFA transfer and possession regulations?
If the possessor retains control over the barrel or other parts required to assemble the SBR or SBS, the firearm would still be subject to NFA transfer and possession regulations. ATF recommends contacting State law enforcement officials to ensure compliance with state and local law.

Q: Does the installation of a barrel over 16 inches in length (SBR) or 18 inches in length (SBS) remove the firearm from the purview of the NFA? If so, is this considered a permanent change?
Installation of a barrel greater than 16 inches in length (SBR) or 18 inches in length (SBS) will remove the firearm from the purview of the NFA provided the registrant does not maintain control over the parts necessary to reconfigure the firearm as a SBR or SBS.

Q: Is it necessary to send notification to ATF and receive acknowledgement that the SBR or SBS has been removed from the purview of the NFA before it may be sold as a GCA firearm?
There is no requirement for the possessor of a registered NFA firearm to notify ATF that the firearm has been removed from the purview of the NFA. However, ATF recommends the possessor notify the NFA Branch of such changes in writing so that the possessor is not mistakenly identified as the owner if the firearm is later used in a crime. If, at the time of transfer, the firearm does not meet the definition of a SBR, it should be transferred without filing the NFA transfer application and without payment of the transfer tax.

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Re: Got my first form back / ATF doctored it!

Post by rogerme » Thu May 17, 2012 7:30 pm

glocker17 wrote:It appears you can place a 16+" barrel on an SBR and sell it without notification of NFA, the ask you too but don't require it.
Can and should are not the same.
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Re: Got my first form back / ATF doctored it!

Post by Surly » Fri May 18, 2012 11:34 pm

rogerme wrote:
glocker17 wrote:It appears you can place a 16+" barrel on an SBR and sell it without notification of NFA, the ask you too but don't require it.
Can and should are not the same.
Regardless, if it's a receiver with no barrel, it's considered Title 1 in the eyes of the law. Once the short barrel is attached, it becomes a SBR. In the case of an AR, you can have a 16" upper to install on it if you want to take it out of state without doing a 5320.20 and it is perfectly legal.

If you aren't absolutely certain about something, don't parrot misinformation or perpetuate it the same. :wink:

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Re: Got my first form back / ATF doctored it!

Post by rogerme » Sat May 19, 2012 2:53 pm

Surly wrote:
rogerme wrote:
glocker17 wrote:It appears you can place a 16+" barrel on an SBR and sell it without notification of NFA, the ask you too but don't require it.
Can and should are not the same.
Regardless, if it's a receiver with no barrel, it's considered Title 1 in the eyes of the law. Once the short barrel is attached, it becomes a SBR. In the case of an AR, you can have a 16" upper to install on it if you want to take it out of state without doing a 5320.20 and it is perfectly legal.

If you aren't absolutely certain about something, don't parrot misinformation or perpetuate it the same. :wink:
I do not recall saying anything about anything absolute. Just because something is LEGAL to do does not mean it is prudent to do so.
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Re: Got my first form back / ATF doctored it!

Post by Surly » Sun May 20, 2012 12:28 pm

rogerme wrote:
Surly wrote:
rogerme wrote:Regardless, if it's a receiver with no barrel, it's considered Title 1 in the eyes of the law. Once the short barrel is attached, it becomes a SBR. In the case of an AR, you can have a 16" upper to install on it if you want to take it out of state without doing a 5320.20 and it is perfectly legal.

If you aren't absolutely certain about something, don't parrot misinformation or perpetuate it the same. :wink:
I do not recall saying anything about anything absolute. Just because something is LEGAL to do does not mean it is prudent to do so.
If it is LEGAL, it is prudent to do it. If it's ILLEGAL, it's prudent to do it if you're a criminal. There a definite black and white difference and they can be expressed in absolutes.

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Re: Got my first form back / ATF doctored it!

Post by Bendersquint » Sun May 20, 2012 3:58 pm

rogerme wrote:I do not recall saying anything about anything absolute. Just because something is LEGAL to do does not mean it is prudent to do so.
Especially when it comes to the ATF looking for an item. When we got our manufacturers FFL years ago the ATF came with a list of all of my personally owned NFA items and wanted to verify I still had them.

I asked the same question and was told that if they came looking for the SBR/SBS and I couldn't provide the weapon that it would be considered LOST unless they had proof that it was asked to be removed as it was in Title1 configuration via signed documentation. I was also told that a hand receipt from a private sale did not suffice.

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Re: Got my first form back / ATF doctored it!

Post by rogerme » Sun May 20, 2012 9:00 pm

Surly wrote:
If it is LEGAL, it is prudent to do it. If it's ILLEGAL, it's prudent to do it if you're a criminal. There a definite black and white difference and they can be expressed in absolutes.

Well you go right ahead and tell that to the ATF folks who show up if they do at your house. See how that goes over. When they ask where is this SBR and you reply well I put a 16+ barrel on it and sold the thing they are going to say "you did not notify us of that" Then you go ahead and say I do not have to. This is the difference between prudent and legal. But you do as you wish.
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Re: Got my first form back / ATF doctored it!

Post by aggiez28 » Mon May 28, 2012 6:49 pm

If you aren't absolutely certain about something, don't parrot misinformation or perpetuate it the same.
+1
lots of incorrect info in here.

it is only an SBR if it meets the definition of one. If it is configured in such a way that does not meet the definition then it is a title 1 firearm and may be treated as such.

if you have a stripped lower and you get your approved form back then you have the same exact thing as you had the day before you got your form back. nothing has changed except the fact that you can legally build it into an SBR if you want.

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Re: Got my first form back / ATF doctored it!

Post by rogerme » Tue May 29, 2012 4:48 pm

aggiez28 wrote:
If you aren't absolutely certain about something, don't parrot misinformation or perpetuate it the same.
+1
lots of incorrect info in here.

it is only an SBR if it meets the definition of one. If it is configured in such a way that does not meet the definition then it is a title 1 firearm and may be treated as such.

if you have a stripped lower and you get your approved form back then you have the same exact thing as you had the day before you got your form back. nothing has changed except the fact that you can legally build it into an SBR if you want.

As far as the law is on the books I agree. However living in the real world and having dealt with the ATF I personally would both notify them if the status of the item changed ( required to or not ) and keep very detailed records of the sale of the item if it was sold legally in a non NFA configuration. Again this is NOT required by law however these steps EVEN THOUGH NOT REQUIRED BY LAW would be prudent to avoid possible problems.


Image
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Re: Got my first form back / ATF doctored it!

Post by renegade » Tue May 29, 2012 5:16 pm

aggiez28 wrote:
If you aren't absolutely certain about something, don't parrot misinformation or perpetuate it the same.
+1
lots of incorrect info in here.

it is only an SBR if it meets the definition of one. If it is configured in such a way that does not meet the definition then it is a title 1 firearm and may be treated as such.

if you have a stripped lower and you get your approved form back then you have the same exact thing as you had the day before you got your form back. nothing has changed except the fact that you can legally build it into an SBR if you want.
Correct.

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Re: Got my first form back / ATF doctored it!

Post by carlwilkey » Wed Jul 04, 2012 4:32 pm

Rogerme,

I like the dead horse picture! LOL.

I'm thinking why would someone spend $200 for a tax stamp, not "make" the SBR and then sell it as a standard Title 1 lower receiver??? It seems like a lot of hassle for nothing and a big waste of time and money.

Carl

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Re: Got my first form back / ATF doctored it!

Post by rogerme » Wed Jul 04, 2012 7:20 pm

carlwilkey wrote:Rogerme,

I like the dead horse picture! LOL.

I'm thinking why would someone spend $200 for a tax stamp, not "make" the SBR and then sell it as a standard Title 1 lower receiver??? It seems like a lot of hassle for nothing and a big waste of time and money.

Carl

Because it is most times a quick and easy way to sell a lower/ rifle you do not want/ need anymore. Why would people sell a MG for half what they COULD get if they waited for a buyer? People do all kinds of odd things when they NEED cash. This is why pawnshops exist.
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Re: Got my first form back / ATF doctored it!

Post by Kramer » Thu Jul 05, 2012 11:53 am

Surly wrote:Regardless, if it's a receiver with no barrel, it's considered Title 1 in the eyes of the law. Once the short barrel is attached, it becomes a SBR. In the case of an AR, you can have a 16" upper to install on it if you want to take it out of state without doing a 5320.20 and it is perfectly legal.
Now let me bounce off that statement. Lets say you want to go to a shoot that is out of state and do not have time to send in a 5320.20 and have it approved before the trip, can you take the shorty upper off, travel to the shoot states away then re-assemble the SBR, is that legal?


As far as many are concerned, once a receiver/firearm is listed in the NFA registry as a SBR/SBS it will always be a NFA firearm regardless if it has the short barrel or not. The only way for it to return to a Title I firearm is to write the ATF and have it removed from the registry.

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Re: Got my first form back / ATF doctored it!

Post by rogerme » Thu Jul 05, 2012 4:44 pm

Kramer wrote:
Surly wrote:Regardless, if it's a receiver with no barrel, it's considered Title 1 in the eyes of the law. Once the short barrel is attached, it becomes a SBR. In the case of an AR, you can have a 16" upper to install on it if you want to take it out of state without doing a 5320.20 and it is perfectly legal.
Now let me bounce off that statement. Lets say you want to go to a shoot that is out of state and do not have time to send in a 5320.20 and have it approved before the trip, can you take the shorty upper off, travel to the shoot states away then re-assemble the SBR, is that legal?


As far as many are concerned, once a receiver/firearm is listed in the NFA registry as a SBR/SBS it will always be a NFA firearm regardless if it has the short barrel or not. The only way for it to return to a Title I firearm is to write the ATF and have it removed from the registry.
If you have the 5320 that says you can have the SBR in and to the state listed. The 5320 makes it legal to have it IN it's NFA configuration. If you have the 5320 you do not have to break it down. You could have any upper you want on it. As long as your have have the 5320 when it reverts to it's less then 16 inch barrel length. If you where to put a standard 20 inch ( or anything over 16 ) on it and leave the short upper at home then you woudl not need a 5320 though again I would recommend it JIC...

You second statement in regards to this matter is SBR is false. There is NO LEGAL requirement to do so. Thus this debate.
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