GaLEO wrote:I would love to have a dealer explain on this thread why on earth he would take a customers money for a product he didn't have........and didn't know when, or if he could get.....
And then I need someone to explain to me how that is AAC's, or Gemtechs, or anyone elses fault....
Right on.
On the other hand, why do customers give them money?
When I want a new car and have decided what I want, I find a dealer who has it in-stock, not plunk down full price and have a dealer order it for me...
I have seen several dealers taking orders/money for Black Box cans.
I routinely take peoples money for ordered items, anytime I am not acting as the bank on an order the final cost to the end user is less. If I have my money tied up then the end user pays more.
I can understand the type of custmer that needs to touch and feel a product before they buy it, just expect to pay money for that service.
NFA shooters blow their load with only one pull of the trigger.
Right on hineline, These guys think we can spend thousands of dollars and wait 3-6 months for AAC to ship. Thats a hell of a way to do buisness, or for that matter go out of buisness. I am one of those dealers who will take money for a blackbox PRE_ORDER. I told them to reserve me 10, so when they do come in I will need well over 5000.00 to get my order. That is just for 1 company's order, add all of my firearms orders; and other suppressor manufactures. It adds up to 10's of thousands of dollars on the back burner. I also have 2 MSAR stg556's on order PAID. and i wait for those too. Who the F--k do you think you are GALEO and RENEGADE to criticize how smaller dealers do buisness. I have already refunded a pre-order as promised to the customer when he ordered one . I would have no problem releasing his info after i get his permission too. I can see some on this board have worn out there blackhawk neoprean knee pads doing the unskinny bop....
And lastly I waited over 115 days for my damn 762sd order and heard every excuse in the book from no flashiders, out at coating, ship next week , again ship next week ECT ECT ECT Now I am at about 105 days for my m42000m7 with no frickin clue when it will arrive. What am i to tell the customer that ordered, I took your money and it is my fault AAC hasnt shipped it yet. go pound sand.......
[quote] I connot believe these people get so upset over waiting for something that is a specialty product and goes through a lot of regulations. quote]
One of the problems (for me) is that none of this is mentioned up front. You look at a catalog, a website, or a magazine ad and nowhere is it mentioned that you might be waiting six months to get one. It isn't mentioned that this product being advertised never existed beyond a prototype. It is never mentioned that the company might decide not to make the item at all. You use the word specialty: the problem is that the advertising doesn't make this out to be a specialty item. It is marketed as an item you can buy like any other item. When I see a catalog advertising something.........let's say it's a book, if the book isn't really available and no one has any idea when it might be written, it would be nice to say that up front.
As was mentioned: communication. The lack of communication seems to me to be the #1 source of problems for me in all aspects of my life. The wait isn't the issue. It's the not knowing from beginning to end of the transaction that is the problem and there are very few times as a consumer when this whole issue is a problem. It is normal to see something, you pay for it and walk away with it. There are some things that need to be ordered and a short wait is expected. When waiting times of months occur and no one said anything about it, we have a problem.
This is the type of thing that is going to keep suppressors out of the mainstream. It seems like when you read on-line gun forums, a lot more people are talking about suppressors and it seems like a lot more people are buying suppressors. It is difficult enough to buy a suppressor without finding out after you make an order that you will have NO idea when you might actually get the item you ordered so you can start waiting on the tax stamp.
GaLEO wrote:And then I need someone to explain to me how that is AAC's, or Gemtechs, or anyone elses fault....
It's not the manufacturer's fault unless they misled a buyer to believe a product would be available at a certain time and they fail to deliver within a reasonable time period. If I'm told 4 months and it takes 10, the manufacturer has an obligation to keep me informed. Nothing pisses me off more than being strung along...2 more weeks...2 more weeks...2 more weeks...2 more weeks...2 more weeks, and if your not happy cancel the order...
It's that last part that burns me more than anything else. Once you've waited several months over the promised delivery date, deferring alternatives in an effort to be reasonable, being offered the "if you don't like it cancel" is unprofessional and annoying. Whenever possible, set a date you have a 95% chance of making and deliver early if possible. Save the last 5% for the exceptions, but make an effort with the customer to keep them informed.
Silencer manufacturing with modern equipment is a relatively simple operation. Short of a crisis with suppliers or subcontractors, an established manufacturer should have very little problems setting and meeting deadlines.
silenceisgolden wrote: Who the F--k do you think you are GALEO and RENEGADE to criticize how smaller dealers do buisness.
Last time I checked, I was living in America and have a right to comment on the business practices of anybody. So that is who "the F--k" I am. Why are you so sensitive to comments? I did not not even mention you. Personally, I like your business model as I would not be in business without it.
silenceisgolden wrote:Right on hineline, These guys think we can spend thousands of dollars and wait 3-6 months for AAC to ship. Thats a hell of a way to do buisness, or for that matter go out of buisness. I am one of those dealers who will take money for a blackbox PRE_ORDER. I told them to reserve me 10, so when they do come in I will need well over 5000.00 to get my order. That is just for 1 company's order, add all of my firearms orders; and other suppressor manufactures. It adds up to 10's of thousands of dollars on the back burner. I also have 2 MSAR stg556's on order PAID. and i wait for those too. Who the F--k do you think you are GALEO and RENEGADE to criticize how smaller dealers do buisness. I have already refunded a pre-order as promised to the customer when he ordered one . I would have no problem releasing his info after i get his permission too. I can see some on this board have worn out there blackhawk neoprean knee pads doing the unskinny bop....
And lastly I waited over 115 days for my damn 762sd order and heard every excuse in the book from no flashiders, out at coating, ship next week , again ship next week ECT ECT ECT Now I am at about 105 days for my m42000m7 with no frickin clue when it will arrive. What am i to tell the customer that ordered, I took your money and it is my fault AAC hasnt shipped it yet. go pound sand.......
I will tell you who I think you are.....I think as long as your customers KNOW that you need their money up front to keep in business, then it is ok...you took the customers money....for frickin' blackboxes....AAC doesn't have the money, do they??? No, you do, or better yet, you have the use of your customers money....which is even better....as long as your customers know that you may have their blackbox money for a year or more...more power to you....but it ain't AAC's fault YOU took YOUR customers money for a product you KNEW you could not deliver....right??
Mr. Burns: This anonymous clan of slack-jawed troglodytes has cost me the election, and yet if I were to have them killed, I would be the one to go to jail. That's democracy for you.
Smithers: You are noble and poetic in defeat, sir.
Mr. Burns: This anonymous clan of slack-jawed troglodytes has cost me the election, and yet if I were to have them killed, I would be the one to go to jail. That's democracy for you.
Smithers: You are noble and poetic in defeat, sir.
You are lumping all dealers into your category, as per your posts. What is it your buisness if I take there money. If they dont have a problem with it, ITS NON OF YOUR BUISNESS. No one said you had to order from me. And as far as taking there money to stay in buisness is just another assinine comment. I take the money to insure no tire kickers or fence sitters screw me in the end. Kinda Like non paying bidders on auction sites. The payment ensures to me you are serious about the purchase. 45 cans as we all know are not the HOLLYWOOD quiet we would like, so if the black box comes out and the reviews are poor I wont be stuck with a product I cannot move. Kind of like m42000 06 and later models. I dont want you buisness nor do i need it . Just dont blame dealers in a whole about production problems at AAC. And any dealer who does practice as you describe should be brought to the attention of this board and all the other boards they might deal with, so prospective buyers dont purchase from these individuals. I have 0 complaints from my customers and strive to bring costumer service to the level it was 20 years ago. I place orders with companies like MSAR and Robinson because they are a positive force in the firearms community trying to bring new and exciting product to the American shooting sport, Unlike companies like HK that wont sell or build rifles in the U.S.. So in conclusion the 2 of you are nothing more than AAC cheerleaders, myself and alot of other dealers have had C.S. issues with AAc and its not just some random conspiracy against them, I happen to like the products that they make. But the delays in shipping with not even a ball park figure when they will ship is not helping anyone.. All we are asking for is an honest answer to a few simple questions. And in no way am I coming to any conclusion that the Blackbox will not be a successful product. I wish AAC the best in the production and introduction of this innovative product.
[quote="silenceisgolden"]You are lumping all dealers into your category, as per your posts. What is it your buisness if I take there money. If they dont have a problem with it, ITS NON OF YOUR BUISNESS. No one said you had to order from me. And as far as taking there money to stay in buisness is just another assinine comment. I take the money to insure no tire kickers or fence sitters screw me in the end. Kinda Like non paying bidders on auction sites. The payment ensures to me you are serious about the purchase. 45 cans as we all know are not the HOLLYWOOD quiet we would like, so if the black box comes out and the reviews are poor I wont be stuck with a product I cannot move. Kind of like m42000 06 and later models. I dont want you buisness nor do i need it . Just dont blame dealers in a whole about production problems at AAC. And any dealer who does practice as you describe should be brought to the attention of this board and all the other boards they might deal with, so prospective buyers dont purchase from these individuals. I have 0 complaints from my customers and strive to bring costumer service to the level it was 20 years ago. I place orders with companies like MSAR and Robinson because they are a positive force in the firearms community trying to bring new and exciting product to the American shooting sport, Unlike companies like HK that wont sell or build rifles in the U.S.. So in conclusion the 2 of you are nothing more than AAC cheerleaders, myself and alot of other dealers have had C.S. issues with AAc and its not just some random conspiracy against them, I happen to like the products that they make. But the delays in shipping with not even a ball park figure when they will ship is not helping anyone.. All we are asking for is an honest answer to a few simple questions. And in no way am I coming to any conclusion that the Blackbox will not be a successful product. I wish AAC the best in the production and introduction of this innovative product.[/quote
I wish you well in your business......
it's funny, apparantly posting your positive customer service issues with AAC makes you a cheerleader....which is an insult.....I guess..
If you don't mind me asking, what does a Blackbox cost???
Last edited by 3101 on Tue Jul 03, 2007 6:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Mr. Burns: This anonymous clan of slack-jawed troglodytes has cost me the election, and yet if I were to have them killed, I would be the one to go to jail. That's democracy for you.
Smithers: You are noble and poetic in defeat, sir.
silenceisgolden wrote:
So in conclusion the 2 of you are nothing more than AAC cheerleaders
No, I am a cheerleader for the CUSTOMER. Just today I had a customer looking to buy an M4-1000, cash in hand. I don't have any in stock at the moment, all are on order. I did not try to up-sell him to M4-2007 which I had in-stock, but he did not need, or down-sell him to something that would not meet his needs. He had done his homework, and the M4-1000 was the best solution for his needs. Good work on his part.
Of course I could have taken his money an ordered him one for delivery who knows when, but I did not do that. Instead, I called other local dealers I know who might have them, and located one for him 15 minutes from me. I referred him to that dealer. Now the CUSTOMER will have his M4-1000 in 30 days, and not three months. That is what I am about.
silenceisgolden wrote:
So in conclusion the 2 of you are nothing more than AAC cheerleaders
No, I am a cheerleader for the CUSTOMER. Just today I had a customer looking to buy an M4-1000, cash in hand. I don't have any in stock at the moment, all are on order. I did not try to up-sell him to M4-2007 which I had in-stock, but he did not need, or down-sell him to something that would not meet his needs. He had done his homework, and the M4-1000 was the best solution for his needs. Good work on his part.
Of course I could have taken his money an ordered him one for delivery who knows when, but I did not do that. Instead, I called other local dealers I know who might have them, and located one for him 15 minutes from me. I referred him to that dealer. Now the CUSTOMER will have his M4-1000 in 30 days, and not three months. That is what I am about.
+1, and you have a customer for life....
Mr. Burns: This anonymous clan of slack-jawed troglodytes has cost me the election, and yet if I were to have them killed, I would be the one to go to jail. That's democracy for you.
Smithers: You are noble and poetic in defeat, sir.
I have to agree with the dealers on this one. You can't expect a dealer to front you the cash by ordering it with his money and sitting on that money for 6 months. If you had 20 customers order 600$ (your cost) silencers and it takes 6 months to get them in, that dealer is loosing over 50$ a month on that money. And thats only if he puts it in a simple 5.05% interest paying savings account or CD. (its a different game if he stocks it, and your likely to pay more for exactly this reason). So it costs him over 300$ to pay for those 20 cans using his cash (or 15$ a can).
I just use a small time dealer that charges 50$ a transfer and buy the cans from stocking dealers like henry(SWR) or bookhound(AAC).
bp
silenceisgolden wrote:Right on hineline, These guys think we can spend thousands of dollars and wait 3-6 months for AAC to ship. Thats a hell of a way to do buisness, or for that matter go out of buisness. I am one of those dealers who will take money for a blackbox PRE_ORDER. I told them to reserve me 10, so when they do come in I will need well over 5000.00 to get my order. That is just for 1 company's order, add all of my firearms orders; and other suppressor manufactures. It adds up to 10's of thousands of dollars on the back burner. I also have 2 MSAR stg556's on order PAID. and i wait for those too. Who the F--k do you think you are GALEO and RENEGADE to criticize how smaller dealers do buisness. I have already refunded a pre-order as promised to the customer when he ordered one . I would have no problem releasing his info after i get his permission too. I can see some on this board have worn out there blackhawk neoprean knee pads doing the unskinny bop....
And lastly I waited over 115 days for my damn 762sd order and heard every excuse in the book from no flashiders, out at coating, ship next week , again ship next week ECT ECT ECT Now I am at about 105 days for my m42000m7 with no frickin clue when it will arrive. What am i to tell the customer that ordered, I took your money and it is my fault AAC hasnt shipped it yet. go pound sand.......
That might be true if all the dealer is doing is ordering 10 600 dollar cans, and doing no other business....
these dealers are doing transactions with other makers and vendors, which should generate a cash flow....of course, I could be wrong....
My FFL is as small an outfit as there is...believe me, I know small FFL's....but I doubt he would take a customers money for a product that doesn't exist yet....although the customers seem to like it....
Mr. Burns: This anonymous clan of slack-jawed troglodytes has cost me the election, and yet if I were to have them killed, I would be the one to go to jail. That's democracy for you.
Smithers: You are noble and poetic in defeat, sir.
bp_968 wrote:I have to agree with the dealers on this one. You can't expect a dealer to front you the cash by ordering it with his money and sitting on that money for 6 months.
Dealers are not required to pay in advance when ordering from AAC. A smaller dealer can get a larger discount in some cases by paying up front, but that is their choice.
there you go....I had read that before but I was afraid to quote it.....
I had a $10K order with a rather small dealer, and I paid half up front, half on delivery....an accepted practice as well.....
Mr. Burns: This anonymous clan of slack-jawed troglodytes has cost me the election, and yet if I were to have them killed, I would be the one to go to jail. That's democracy for you.
Smithers: You are noble and poetic in defeat, sir.
bp_968 wrote:I have to agree with the dealers on this one. You can't expect a dealer to front you the cash by ordering it with his money and sitting on that money for 6 months.
Dealers are not required to pay in advance when ordering from AAC. A smaller dealer can get a larger discount in some cases by paying up front, but that is their choice.
There you go. Sounds like if your dealer asks for money upfront, find another dealer. Otherwise he will collect interest on your cash for free
You can't blame smaller dealers for taking money up front as long as they are accountable for it and up front about the whole process. I know of several reputible dealers who took deposits on the Colt LE1020, and when it appears that the rifle might not be made, they offered refunds or to hold out for the manufacture of that rifle. Even if a dealer can order a can from a manufacturer without paying up front, if the customer backs out and leaves the dealer stuck with the can, especially something like a high end .45 can that many might not buy, it may be hard for him to eat the cost. I would not mind paying up front to someone I trust. Name one dealer out there who would not ask for the cash up front on something as expensive as the Titan? Even if that dealer could order without paying up front. Everyone knows that Ops will not take payment until the can is made, but I had a dealer quote me at least half of price of the .338 LM can up front because it is a speciality item, and he wouldn't want to get stuck with the can. I can understand that. This dealer is probably one of the biggest moving dealers in the country too, if that makes a difference.
It is not uncommon for a dealer of any product to make people pay up front for special orders. When I ordered a door from Lowes, I had to pay up front and wait a few weeks.
Then again, I would shop from a stocking dealer if one exists. That is kinda a pipe dream though given how many models there are.
The real problem is the government regulation. 5.56mm silencers would be $20 to $200 if there was no regulation. It would be like buying a knife.
rsilvers wrote:It is not uncommon for a dealer of any product to make people pay up front for special orders. When I ordered a door from Lowes, I had to pay up front and wait a few weeks.
Then again, I would shop from a stocking dealer if one exists. That is kinda a pipe dream though given how many models there are.
The real problem is the government regulation. 5.56mm silencers would be $20 to $200 if there was no regulation. It would be like buying a knife.
And I would have silencers for guns I don't even own yet, I wished that were the case.
I have ordered a couple of cans as well but not from AAC.
I have always ordered directly from the manufacturer. Is that possible with AAC?
I figure that there must be some discount for going through a dealer, but making a direct order, for me, seems to have avoided some of the problems I have read here. That way there isn't a dealer holding my money while I am waiting on the product. I may not be first in line for my order but this is how I have always done it.
I don't have a problem with a dealer taking a deposit, either partial or full payment, as long as everything is upfront.
(by the way, is there a big discount by going through a dealer? )
Kevin took your advise and called the office yesterday, and was advised it would be a couple of more weeks, due to the can having it's SCARmor finished applied etc. but no firm date given.
I was advised eight weeks ago this same thing. So I canceled my order today, and ordered another companies can that was in stock.
Like others have stated, if I would have been advised when I ordered it would be six months, twelve months this would not have been an issue now. I might have made another choice, and would have been an option of "mine"
But to be told my order would ship with the 1st batch and that didn't happen, to see other's owners can's all over the Internet, then to read here on this forum don't call or ask about the status of my order you just don't have the time, has been too much.
It's really a shame that I may never know of your companies products first hand due to your companies customer service.
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