People hate us...

[win912]

For those of us that live in banned states and jurisdictions, there are a growing number of fellow gun owners and dealers in less restrictive areas that are overtly refusing to do legal business with us, that are begining to cut off an already tough supply chain of legally available surplus (pre-1994) parts and accessories to us. People say they are tired of trying to understand confusing laws? The laws don't seem too confusing to the guy that has no choice but to live with them, to learn them and understand them for his own survival in this hobby. Lazy is a word that describes peoples refusal to understand the laws. This saddens me because I am beginning to see and feel the divisions being created amongst us, which I forsee to be the downfall of the remaining important individual freedoms we ALL have. Divided organizations get conquered. It also disturbs me to think that people who share the same passions as I do, will think about nothing other than themselves. I am the guy who falls on the grenade without hesitation for the benefit of my comrades, and I am sorry to say that there are others that don't come close to living up to this standard. When everyone loses, there will be no one else to blame except for the person looking back at you in the mirror.

[ottosear]

I sold 2 Eagle lowers to folks in Connecticut this year. They were VERY pleased.
They didn't want to buy the 3 N.I.W. Sterling 40 rd steel mags I had as well.
I try to do my part.
BUT I have been treated Rudely by New Yorkers more than half the time.
So I will no longer put up with them.
People most definitely do not hate ALL ban states.

[bakerjw]

Do what I did....

MOVE

I moved from ill-inois to Tennessee. Never regretted it for one second. The though of going back to visit friends or family makes me ill. As soon as I cross the state line I have to pull my handgun from my holster and put it in a case and make sure that the ammunition is not readily accessible. Fucking pathetic.

[Twinsen]

Too much hassle. There aren't just laws in our terrible states, there's horrible judges, horrible prosecutors, and horrible investigators that try to put gun people out of business. It's ballsy to do business with CT, NJ, NY, CA, and MA.

Also, a lot of them don't like ban staters because our votes are ruining the country. I mean, that's why I don't like ban staters. I'm from CT, in CA. So ban stater for life here.

[David Hineline]

When a distributor dealer individual can sell their products with no hassle then why should they try and sell their products for extra hassle? Are you willing to pay extra for them to do it, or just want the above and beyond treatment for free, cause you are picked on by the man?

[win912]

I understand the hassles from a large retail distributor perspective, and although that is a concern too, it is not as much of a concern as the division I see being created amongst private individuals..."amongst ourselves". I have heard the "move" option too...but running from a growing problem in our country does not resolve it, and the growing problem has just been affirmed by Twinsen's statement...Ban states have some voting power that possibly ruins the rest of the country being YOU. I don't think anyone who actively collects preban weapons and parts like me is asking for any special treatment either...my past, my makeup, and the students I currently teach don't get that either. Not really asking for anything other than making an observation that current behaviors, feelings, and actions directed towards people in ban states is not strengthening our core values and beliefs. In our lives, the short term, yes you can move, and also not choose to do business with residents in ban states. But is this strengthing or weakening OUR position as a whole group? In heaven I will gladly hang out with any of you, and we can all look down from heaven, as we sit at a table playing Poker and observe the consequences of past short term choices and the results of what has been created in the future of gun ownership for ALL.

[ottosear]

Lets talk. I still have the Sterlings.

[win912]

Ottosear,

I appreciate your offer, but I just bought a 100 N.O.S. Colt 30rd magazines circa 1979-1981. I am actively looking for Preban AK mags that will work well in my Polytech Legend. Haben sie guten tag mien fruend.

[David Hineline]

First off I do not consider people that live in those types of states one of us. I consider them a leper colony to send one of those to go and live so they are not my neighbors.

Those people always think they are effecting our lifestyles but their trends are not ours and have no effect on us.

The us states have passed more open CCW, accept CCW from other us states, imporved gun laws etc.\

Just exactly what has the demise of the them states done to the us states other than draw them away from us so there are less them among us.

[Twinsen]

Yeah, I don't know what to say there. I feel like if you spread the stupid around, it wouldn't be such a powerful stupid. Have you heard a group of these people talk? It's horrifying. Last week I heard that it's unpatriotic to vote for a candidate based on their platform. Like they deeply believe that the gossip s--t on the news like what kind of dog they own is far more important than anything they do in office. And that we need to let the democrats have more time to do what they need to. Because in 4 years they've only done wrong... buuuuut if we give them 4 more they'll do good... maybe.

I want to think that if you had people that impressionable mixed in with humans that it wouldn't be so bad. But... hey if I lived in a free state, I wouldn't want to take the chance either.

P.S. OMG NANCY PELOSI LIKES THE SAME SODA I DO! RE-ELECT!

[win912]

Twinsen,

I like your point about "spreading stupid around" and "impressionable people" mixed in amongst the idiots. I have thought about senarios like that too. I respectfully disagree with the people "taking chances" view, it really isn't about taking chances. What it is really about is exactly as the title of this thread says...It is about some gun owners in free states hating all people in banned states, "all" meaning to include even their own fellow gun owners...and it is unfortunate to see.

[Twinsen]

I agree.

[ick]

In my experience taking a person to a range changes their gun opinion... and possibly their entire perspective on everything.

I have a niece in one of the big ivy league colleges. She was questioning her upbringing given the influx of liberal ideas into her life. Not only did a trip to the range this summer give her an appreciation for firearms and her uncle... but her west-coast friend (Washington State) she brought along had a whole new area of life open up. They now question with boldness the liberal-line that "all guns are evil, and all gun owners are evil." They quite possibly have passed from "mindless student swallowing professor's party line" to cutting their own opinion from fact instead of mindless ideology. Time will tell. They both want to shoot again sometime.

Also, I have a middle-age couple from the city that are clients of mine. They generally vote Republican but their distaste for Bush had them voting for Obama. Of course they question the wisdom of their decision last November, a trip to the range allowed us to discuss that and "flesh out the parameters of the mistake" in a friendly atmosphere. Additionally our trip to the range has given them a whole new perspective on firearms. They loved the rifle shooting the most, more than the pistols.... but after their positive experience they now plan to purchase their first pistol for home defense.

The only way this battle can be won long-term is one person at a time and expanding the "gun culture". The days of Dad taking a son to the range to teach him to shoot are GONE. Our only hope is personal positive interation with responsible gun owners.

[win912]

I like that! Thanks.

[dustdevil]

I agree with David Hineline. Strange but true. People are not lazy because they do not look into ban states gun laws. If they can sell to someone not in those states without the weirdness then so be it. They are trying to make money. The less hassle the better.

Then there is the threat of impending "It is coming your way". You are right but, we non-ban states never get any help whatsoever from the gun owners in ban states. We have to fight our battles ourselves. They want our help but are very quiet when it comes to helping us. Federally, it is the non-ban states that fight to keep things from digressing into California, and others, type laws. We know how your legislators are going to vote and have to try and convince ours of not voting with yours. Selling a pre-1994 widget to a gun owner in those states or anything else does not get that accomplished. Your votes matter not the collection of stuff.

These discussions always end up with ban state members accusing the non-ban state members of being anti second amendment. Ban state members try and lay the guilt trip on non-ban state members. All this mud slinging because someone wanted to buy something but the seller did not want to sell to them. The ban state member who starts these threads gets mad over this and starts the mud slinging fest. As a general rule we non-ban state residents do not hate the gun owners in ban states. We are not lazy because we do not want to muddle through the morass of ban states gun laws. We are not anti second amendment. We are just, in each individual sale, making available a product for conditional sale to make some money. The people in ban states need to change the laws in they're respective states.

[win912]

so each state for themselves.....?

[phoenix]

so each state for themselves.....?

yeah, kinda like a republic.

[Twinsen]

I lolled.

[win912]

Fair enough, I started this thread and I won't, and haven't slung mud. Doing that resolves nothing. Making money was mentioned. If you sell a product where there is more of a demand you might make more money...?? And yes the points mentioned...ehhh, I won't refute at this juncture. But I can't help but to walk away from this discussion still feeling that a refusal to sell an item stems more from a seller's animosity towards a ban state rather than an unwillingness to understand new laws that you decide not to learn because you don't agree with them. Laws are changing all the time, and to stay up to speed you have to understand the changes. Unfortunate changes have occurred for some...there is no guilt trip being played here. Just an observation, and a concern.

[dustdevil]

win912, if I was being abrupt I apologize. I would really disagree that it is animosity that sellers from non-ban states to ban states. Many for sale ads on the internet are copies, basically, from other's ads. Many people also have a hard time finding and researching differing laws. So, they take the easy way and refuse selling to ban states. Is it really all that difficult to sell to a resident of California? Not really, but at the same time it is even easier not to. The plus side of doing so is that the seller believes they will not get into trouble with California authorities. For you it is the pre-1994 magazines etc. It was much easier to deal with that when the federal assault weapons ban was in effect. Six years later it is a pain to try and figure out what are pre-1994 magazines, example, and post 1994 magazines. I will concede it is a laziness. But, temper the accusation of laziness with the possibility of prosecution, real or imagined.

Look at the NFA world. How many people have you run into that misquote, misunderstand, or flat out fabricate information about NFA items. That is a fairly old law with few changes ever being made to it and it is screwed up numerous times. Ban-state laws are like the NFA laws. Only those directly affected really care. Most others fabricate and distort what the ban-state laws are. I remember reading the purse fights over at calguns about tannerite and if the Taurus Judge was legal to sell to law enforcement. Are these legal in California? I have no idea. I really don't care. The on roster, off roster, law enforcement sales is not worth it to me. There is enough of a demand for these items outside of California that if I had them for sale I would say "Not for sale to California residents". Especially with tannerite I cannot find a clear consensus to this question. I would play it safe. I would not look at the time spent writing letters to the California DOJ asking these questions as being fruitful. That is my take on it at least.

[win912]

Dustdevil,

Thanks for your words. I wish things were different. I can understand peoples concerns...and I concede that my previous word "lazy" in hindsight was probably a bit strong. It is frustrating to look at ammo and magazine sales on Gunbroker and (TO ME) clearly see I can own it and buy it....yet the seller says its "ILLEGAL" in the following states Blah blah etc etc...when I know that is not true. I just had 1000 rds of Hirtenberger shipped to my door last week. I guess I wish people would just say.."Hey, I am sorry I don't know your laws and I don't want to take that chance"....rather than what I was told by "WE ARE GUNS" "I will not support a state like Massachusetts!"...I mean...thats kicking a guy in the nuts when he is already down. I think rather than lumping people into a catch-all catagory of liberals for my area...try to walk in anothers shoes. An assumption that I would like to clear up about Mass is...people on the outside looking in sometimes assume that we like living under such oppressed conditions...the minority are kinda stuck..for now. I changed careers a couple times..I teach...imagine what it is like for me at a mandatory staff meeting with colleages....all huddled around a TV watching Obama's swearing into office...watching them cry and say...oh were saved! Everythings going to change! I CAN TELL YOU THAT BLOWS! Anyways...I hope people aren't too let down when they see this thread doesn't get all heated...Behind the lines...begging... borrowing...and stealing.....win912

[PeteSB]

Personally I have many friends stuck behind enemy lines in California, DC and Maryland. Every time they start to bitch about how bad it is living there I ask them why they continue to support the very system which they so despise. Just being a productive member of that society reaffirms and propagates their ideals, values and mores.