For defense, which is better 147 or 158gr 9mm?

John A. · Post by **John A.** » Sat Jul 05, 2008 2:05 am

Good evening guys. I've been reading about the 147 and 158gr ammo differences.

I understand that 158 is quieter even out of a longer barrel. I do have some Prvi Partizan 158's and you can tell the difference shooting with a 5.5 inch barrel even without a suppressor if you shoot them back to back.

But are there any discernable differences in "knockdown" power?

I know that knockdown may not be the best term when discussing 9mm ammo, but I hope you get the point. Would the extra weight be enough of a difference to think twice about using either load?

MisterWilson · Post by **MisterWilson** » Sat Jul 05, 2008 2:17 am

Man, I must be out of the loop 'cause I've never even HEARD of a 158 grain 9mm bullet.

As for actual differences, I sincerely doubt that anyone catching either would know the difference.

My own preference would be the 147, simply because you can get Ranger-T's or better yet, Federal HST's in that flavor.

I've heard a lot of good things about those 147 grain HSTs. I'd even venture to say that they're the best thing going at the moment, in my non-expert opinion.

ETA: 158...Isn't that a .357 load?

Post by **silencertalk** » Sat Jul 05, 2008 2:04 pm

Pick one of the subsonic loads from this chart:

http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_Defen ... /index.htm

noiseless · Post by **noiseless** » Sat Jul 05, 2008 2:29 pm

I've played with several different 158gr ball rounds, but would never recommend ball for "Defensive Use" if one had the choice.

My personal experience is that 147gr Hollow Points do not make the optimum defensive loading due to over penetration in almost every single case I have seen it used. A buddy on mine once said that "over penetration" means two holes to bleed out of. But in the real world, that means your bullet is passing through the target and is a danger to others "down range", which might be someone you care about and if it's not, you'll care in the aftermath of the shooting.

I have cases of 9mm 147gr ammunition on hand for use with suppressors and a good percentage of it is Hollow Point, but for daily carry, I'll stick to 124gr ammunition.

MisterWilson · Post by **MisterWilson** » Sat Jul 05, 2008 2:35 pm

I mean absolutely no disrespect in asking but, could you tell me more about your experience with 147's over-penetrating?

My (limited) understanding was that they penetrated an inch or two more than a 124+P, but it was marginal, maybe 10% more penetration.

Also, I was under the impression that while misses are always dangerous, that after a bullet has passed through a person, that it's lost a great deal of it's energy and while still hazardous to people behind the target, it's not quite as dangerous.

ETA: And in that ballistics report that Mister Silvers recently posted, the FBI (or what ever testing agency) looks for at least 12" of penetration in gelatin, while 17 is preferable. I didn't think that there was any 9mm load that even came close to that.

Post by **silencertalk** » Sat Jul 05, 2008 3:12 pm

Noiseless,

Your info on 147 grain 9mm seems 8+ years out of date.

115, 124, and 147 grain 9mm all penetrate the same amount (within an inch or so).

This is because the ammo makers tune each weight to get into the 12-16 inch range the FBI requires. So they design them all to go 14 inches.

noiseless · Post by **noiseless** » Sat Jul 05, 2008 9:11 pm

rsilvers wrote:Noiseless,

Your info on 147 grain 9mm seems 8+ years out of date.

Admittedly, this very well may be. The 147s that this comment was based on was Winchesters "Q" Load, Black Talons and Federal Hydrashock. We moved to 124 +P around 1996

Beretta Steel · Post by **Beretta Steel** » Thu Jul 17, 2008 1:20 am

Do you really think 11grains is going to make a noticable difference? Why don't you shoot yourself with both for asking such a stupid question and tell us what you think

Just kidding but it is a silly question.

Artful · Post by **Artful** » Thu Jul 17, 2008 11:06 pm

Beretta Steel wrote:Do you really think 11grains is going to make a noticable difference? Why don't you shoot yourself with both for asking such a stupid question and tell us what you think

Just kidding but it is a silly question.

Actually it's not that silly, he has 158 grn's on hand and wants to know how they would perform. I have only shot steel and paper with IMI 158 grn out of a longer barrel. But in a handgun I would go with a lighter bullet in 9mm.

MisterWilson · Post by **MisterWilson** » Thu Jul 17, 2008 11:14 pm

Artful wrote:
Beretta Steel wrote:Do you really think 11grains is going to make a noticable difference? Why don't you shoot yourself with both for asking such a stupid question and tell us what you think

Just kidding but it is a silly question.
Actually it's not that silly, he has 158 grn's on hand and wants to know how they would perform. I have only shot steel and paper with IMI 158 grn out of a longer barrel. But in a handgun I would go with a lighter bullet in 9mm.

In which case he's asking about using handloaded ammo for self defense, in which case FAIL.
(And not for the overblown Ayoob legal reasons either)

Artful · Post by **Artful** » Thu Jul 17, 2008 11:26 pm

MisterWilson wrote:
Artful wrote:
Beretta Steel wrote:Do you really think 11grains is going to make a noticable difference? Why don't you shoot yourself with both for asking such a stupid question and tell us what you think

Just kidding but it is a silly question.
Actually it's not that silly, he has 158 grn's on hand and wants to know how they would perform. I have only shot steel and paper with IMI 158 grn out of a longer barrel. But in a handgun I would go with a lighter bullet in 9mm.
In which case he's asking about using handloaded ammo for self defense, in which case FAIL.
(And not for the overblown Ayoob legal reasons either)

Where do you get that idea? - he's clearly stated he's got some Prvi Partizan 158's , I was talking about IMI ammo - no one said anything about handloads - and I have never seen a case lost due to use of a handload in the court - I know several prominant gunwriters state you should never use handloads for self defense but I have never seen a link to a court case where that was the deciding factor in a conviction.
HAVE YOU?

MisterWilson · Post by **MisterWilson** » Fri Jul 18, 2008 1:09 am

Whoops, I misread that.

As for not using handloads for defense, it was more the issue of them going bang when you needed to compared to premium defense ammo.

(Hence the "And not for the overblown Ayoob legal reasons either")

John A. · Post by **John A.** » Sat Jul 19, 2008 8:15 am

Beretta Steel wrote:Do you really think 11grains is going to make a noticable difference? Why don't you shoot yourself with both for asking such a stupid question and tell us what you think

Just kidding but it is a silly question.

I've thought on and off for a couple of days to just let this go. But, I keep coming back to it, so I guess I'm going to respond.

The reason I asked to begin with was I can't find any published data on the 158. At least for them in 9mm.

If you are talking about 11 grains not being enough of a difference to make a difference, then can you explain why many military and LEO agencies prefer the 124 gr for duty over the 115? (which is only 9 gr difference).

According to Hornady, here's how they rate in fps from a 4 inch barrel.

AE9AP 124 gr 9mm Luger (9x19mm Parabellum) @ 25 yards 1095
AE9DP 115 gr 9mm Luger (9x19mm Parabellum) @ 25 yards 1106

11 fps may not be a huge loss in velocity, but there is some increase in terminal effect from its' use, so I really don't think it's too silly of a question.

Post by **silencertalk** » Sat Jul 19, 2008 5:54 pm

Increase in terminal effects?

So you are saying 115 grain bullets have increased terminal effects over 124? That is bullet dependent but as a generalization not even true. There are basically no 115 grain HP bullets which can compete with 124 and 147 grain.

John A. · Post by **John A.** » Sat Jul 19, 2008 9:50 pm

rsilvers wrote:Increase in terminal effects?

So you are saying 115 grain bullets have increased terminal effects over 124? That is bullet dependent but as a generalization not even true. There are basically no 115 grain HP bullets which can compete with 124 and 147 grain.

No, rsilvers, the other way around. I prefer the heavier any day of the week.

The loss in velocity of the 124 is just because it's heavier, so naturally, the 124 will be a little slower in comparison.

TROOPER · Post by **TROOPER** » Sun Jul 20, 2008 1:16 am

158 gr 9mm is a niche round. There is no technical reason why you shouldn't use it in a pistol, but there is no advantage either. The only reason 158 gr. 9mm even exists is so 9mm rifles / carbines can fire a round that will still stay subsonic even though the barrel is longer.

I have a 9mm Beretta CX4 Storm suppressed - I haven't had a problem keeping the 147 gr. rounds sub-sonic, but it isn't by much. 158 gr. would be practically guaranteed subsonic.

Again, you can certainly use them in a pistol, but there is no advantage to doing this - especially given its availability and price. You're better off picking up 147 off the shelf for less. If you do happen to have a thousand rounds of the 158 just sitting around, then go ahead and shoot it in your pistol - shouldn't hurt.

Post by **silencertalk** » Sun Jul 20, 2008 9:01 am

158 might not be stable in some twists. Also, if it was made for an UZI, might have too much pressure for some pistols. Thirdly, there are no 158 grain bullets that have modern HP designs.

Beretta Steel · Post by **Beretta Steel** » Sun Jul 20, 2008 2:42 pm

My point was do you think anyone being shot with 147 vs 158 if the bullet hits the same place is going to be able to continue the fight being hit with one round versus the other. For that matter 115 vs 158 I don't think it is going to make any difference bullet placement and type being the same.

Post by **silencertalk** » Sun Jul 20, 2008 2:56 pm

Most of the time it won't many any difference.

Broadway · Post by **Broadway** » Thu Aug 21, 2008 11:57 pm

Handgun rounds are notoriously poor choices for deciding a deadly force encounter. The two most relevant factors when deciding ammunition selection are penetration and permanent wound cavity created by the projectile. Modern design of ammunition are head and shoulders above what we had available ten years ago. I have seen a great deal of testing on modern 115 to 147 grn rounds and they virtually perform the same with only minimal difference in the two noted criteria.

The most important factor however remains getting a good hit on the target with whatever round you are using, thus a good hit with a mediocre round is better then a bad one (or a miss) with a great one.

stymie · Post by **stymie** » Fri Aug 22, 2008 12:57 pm

I practice CNS shots, so I suppose that it doesn't really matter. 9mm 158gr subsonic is about all I use anymore with a suppressor.

MisterWilson · Post by **MisterWilson** » Fri Aug 22, 2008 1:29 pm

stymie wrote:I practice CNS shots, so I suppose that it doesn't really matter. 9mm 158gr subsonic is about all I use anymore with a suppressor.

Quoted for posterity.

John A. · Post by **John A.** » Fri Aug 22, 2008 5:10 pm

Guys I totally agree with shot placement. And I do often practice with taking headshots. This does have one real advantage other than conditioning yourself to that, but if you can hit an 8 inch target, you can almost hit something larger (torso) under stress almost instinctively.

I guess I should've mentioned earlier, the firearm I was asking about using them in is an MP5-K and soon to be suppressed.

I've fired the 158's from prone and although the barrel is only 5 1/2" long, the 158's are much more accurate than 115's in comparison. I'm not sure what twist rate my barrel is, but they do prefer the heavier ammo, so it will be a fairly fast twist rate.

Mr_Psmith · Post by **Mr_Psmith** » Fri Aug 22, 2008 6:39 pm

I've still got my last 150 rounds of Fiocchi 158gr subsonic.

Don't know where I'll get more.

stymie · Post by **stymie** » Tue Aug 26, 2008 11:31 pm

Mr_Psmith wrote:I've still got my last 150 rounds of Fiocchi 158gr subsonic.

Don't know where I'll get more.

http://www.sturmgewehr.com/webBBS/parts.cgi?read=229102

Parts and Accessories Market Board

WTS: Fiocchi 158gr. Subsonic 9MM $320 IMI Bluetip

Posted By: Veronesi Gunsmithing in Seminole, PA [email protected] (98.21.78.22)
Date: 8/27/08 00:26

Hi,
I have 10k rounds of 158gr Subsonic 9mm for sale @ $320 per thousand. This ammunition is of extremely high quality, and VERY hard to get. With IMI Bluetip gone the way of the Dodo this is an equivalent replacement. This stuff is incredibly quiet out of a suppressed subgun. The predominant sound in my UZI/AWC MK 9 is truly the bolt slap. Actual shipping charges will apply.

Tony
Veronesi Gunsmithing
205 Oak Avenue
Seminole, PA 16253
(814)275-4382

For defense, which is better 147 or 158gr 9mm?

For defense, which is better 147 or 158gr 9mm?

Re: For defense, which is better 147 or 158gr 9mm?