I know this may sound strange....

MicroGuy · Post by **MicroGuy** » Sun Jul 27, 2008 9:50 am

Really, I don't plan on killing anybody.

I'm just curious about the that was fired and I think the government has when I bought by new Ruger a while back.

It came with a spent shell, I'm assuming they fired the round, kept the lead so they can use that to trace anything back to my gun? Like a fingerprint.

But, from what I've seen, most of the time the lead is so distorted, even fragmented, you wouldn't be able to do this.

Even so, it'd be easy to get around. Is this one of those government "feel good" programs? Sort of like the serial number stamp on the spent brass?

Or can they really use it to trace something back to my gun? (if I were to do something stupid of course....)

I've never heard of it being used for one.

kalikraven · Post by **kalikraven** » Sun Jul 27, 2008 9:53 am

Some states save the M-T cases to analize the firing pin impression on the primer. If your state does not req it they leave the M-T case with the gun.

Post by **silencertalk** » Sun Jul 27, 2008 10:04 am

They did not keep the lead. The shell you have is there so that in some states, the dealer can collect it and send it to the state to catalog. Best to swap it for another and send in a case you found at the range.

MicroGuy · Post by **MicroGuy** » Mon Jul 28, 2008 1:27 pm

Ah, so I see said the blind man....

Seems like a lot of trouble to go through. But, so did shooting, retrieving the lead, sending it in, analyzing it, and finally cataloging it.

That's why I asked, it just didn't make any sense.

So, if I still have the shell, my gun isn't in any catalog? Which would be good, because anybody could pick my spent brass and do their dirty deeds.

Or the lead for that matter, dig it out of the dirt back background.

Thanks,

Post by **silencertalk** » Mon Jul 28, 2008 1:38 pm

Probably not in the catalog. If you want to be sure, remove the firing pin and reshape it a little and then put it back.

TROOPER · Post by **TROOPER** » Mon Jul 28, 2008 3:16 pm

If a FMJ 5.56/.223 round were fired from a varminter barrel and, as a result, generated enough velocity to completely break up - then could the fragments reasonably be matched back to any given firearm?

It seems to me that 'ballistic land-and-groove' matching (insert CSI) would probably only be effective for FMJ rounds fired at pistol calibers. I don't see how in the world a .357 exposed lead, soft-tip wad-cutter could easily be matched, nor do I see how something like a .22-250, a .204 Ruger, a .17 HMR, or especially a .220 Swift could possibly be recovered with any hope of matching "this bullet to this gun".

Small but high-velocity rounds like those 4 mentioned above ... it just seems like the best they could hope to do is match the chemical properties of the recovered bullet to the batch of the remaining ammo held by the suspect. Even this, though, could create a fantastic door of 'reasonable doubt' since there is nothing to prevent the 'real murderer' from having bought that same caliber from the same store or town.

MicroGuy · Post by **MicroGuy** » Mon Jul 28, 2008 6:06 pm

TROOPER wrote:If a FMJ 5.56/.223 round were fired from a varminter barrel and, as a result, generated enough velocity to completely break up - then could the fragments reasonably be matched back to any given firearm?

It seems to me that 'ballistic land-and-groove' matching (insert CSI) would probably only be effective for FMJ rounds fired at pistol calibers. I don't see how in the world a .357 exposed lead, soft-tip wad-cutter could easily be matched, nor do I see how something like a .22-250, a .204 Ruger, a .17 HMR, or especially a .220 Swift could possibly be recovered with any hope of matching "this bullet to this gun".

Small but high-velocity rounds like those 4 mentioned above ... it just seems like the best they could hope to do is match the chemical properties of the recovered bullet to the batch of the remaining ammo held by the suspect. Even this, though, could create a fantastic door of 'reasonable doubt' since there is nothing to prevent the 'real murderer' from having bought that same caliber from the same store or town.

That's kind of what I was getting at. I haven't seen much left of my ammo when I hit anything.

Kind of wondering what kind of match there has to be to be called a "match".

I could see matching something if you had say a nice mushroom or something. But my lead is always too distorted or fragmented to do anything to.

Just about time to replace the firing pin anyway...

Hush · Post by **Hush** » Mon Jul 28, 2008 8:10 pm

Here say has it that a ballistics test can only tell what make of weapon fired the bullet. Spent cartridge case is a different story so I'm told, similar scratches on the brass from chamber and breech face can make a match.

szemke · Post by **szemke** » Mon Jul 28, 2008 8:35 pm

So the moral of the story is... use a revolver for your dirty deeds

Conqueror · Post by **Conqueror** » Mon Jul 28, 2008 9:27 pm

MicroGuy wrote:Seems like a lot of trouble to go through.

It is. NY and MD have spent millions of taxpayer dollars on their case registries and have solved zero - ZERO - crimes with the data.

MicroGuy · Post by **MicroGuy** » Tue Jul 29, 2008 4:23 pm

Conqueror wrote:
MicroGuy wrote:Seems like a lot of trouble to go through.
It is. NY and MD have spent millions of taxpayer dollars on their case registries and have solved zero - ZERO - crimes with the data.

That's pretty much what I figured, that's why I was asking.

None of it made much sense, and I just didn't like being in some database that I didn't even know about.

The last people *I* trust are government. If they're gonna make a mistake with a database error, it'll have MY name on it.

I feel better now.

I saw one movie where a gun shot somebody, then took a steel rod I guess, and rammed it down teh barrel of the gun to change the profile I guess.

I don't guess that would work very well. It might change it, but not enough. I think that's why pro's just leave the gun or toss it away like in a river or something.

I guess there are things you can do, maybe use what ever they use in the first place to make the rifleings.

But I don't see what the point would be. If I were to do a dirty deed, the last thing I'm gonna do is keep any evidence!

Conqueror · Post by **Conqueror** » Tue Jul 29, 2008 7:36 pm

If I killed someone with one of my pistols, I would grind it into powder on a bench grinder or melt it into ingots with an oxy-acetylene torch.

JohnInNH · Post by **JohnInNH** » Tue Jul 29, 2008 9:35 pm

Dan Wesson Pistol pack... New barrels (not the shroud) and the brass stays with the pistol. Or a slide lock on a cheep surplus 1911. GI barrels used to be $10.

Just an fyi intentionally altering your firing pin, recoil shield, slide, chamber, what ever, so it does not match the casing in a state where it is required to be in the brass registered is a felony. It is clearly stated in the CA micro stamping law too.

I'm sure you are not promoting felonious behavior.

Read it .. they have it all clearly covered. Firing pins slides etc.. They went to great pains to cover it .. which illustrates how ridiculous it is since they know just how easy it is to defeat their registry. Freaking stupid. Just more laws to trip up law abiding people.

Besides the Microstamping CRAP it will make many parts unavailable once the microstamping program becomes national. So much for a spare parts.

So since it is against the law, we can feel safe because we know that criminals won't be altering their firearms now.

TROOPER · Post by **TROOPER** » Tue Jul 29, 2008 11:28 pm

JohnInNH wrote:...Just an fyi intentionally altering your firing pin, recoil shield, slide, chamber, what ever, so it does not match the casing in a state where it is required to be in the brass registered is a felony. It is clearly stated in the CA micro stamping law too.

Intentionally. Mens rea. Intent can be very difficult to prove.

pmercer · Post by **pmercer** » Wed Jul 30, 2008 4:28 am

I came across a website dedicated to ballistic analysis a few years back and from memory they use the following to analyse weapon used, match bullet/cartridge to specific gun:

rifling marks on the bullet,
chamber marks on the case,
firing pin hole marks on the case,
extractor claw marks on the case

Case marks
The problem is when these indentations are made on the case, they are for the most part going to stay the same, but imagine if you have a dirty gun. You fire a 'killing shot' and the brass is left on the scene. Now go home and clean all the carbon build out of the chamber and give it a nice polish, now clean off the bolt face and give this a polish too, now clean off all the residue on the extractor. I think you are getting where this article was going.....

Bullet
Clean you barrel out, get a wooden dowel and some lapping/polishing compound and give the barrel a nice seeing to. This won't ruin the barrel at all, but will remove all the high points that cause indentations on the bullet.(I'm not talking about the rifling)

Now go down to the range with your nicely cleaned gun and put a few hundred rounds through the gun. Oh and make sure the bullet is a little bit grimy(not so much that it ruins the gun)

Now what happens is the chamber, bolt face and extractor all have different dirt on them and therefore leave different marks on future casing. The bullets runnign down the barrel introduce new marks into the barrel which changes the marks left by the rifling.

Voila, completely different ballistics marks. The only similar thing will be hte location of the firing pin hole, but this is mainly used to ID weapon type, not identify specific firearms.

This is someone elses knowledge that I'm repeating from memory. I'm interested in this, but have no real experience in it.

Post by **silencertalk** » Wed Jul 30, 2008 10:10 am

Just use a Colt revolver which you had a S&W barrel fitted to it.

ArevaloSOCOM · Post by **ArevaloSOCOM** » Wed Jul 30, 2008 10:49 am

IMHO i would simply use a throw away reviolver and then give it the Conqueror treatment.

TROOPER · Post by **TROOPER** » Wed Jul 30, 2008 11:37 am

I read on the internet (world's most reliable source) that certain police departments do not use GLOCKs since matching bullet-to-gun when there are several police involved is impossible due to the GLOCKs non-rifled barrels. Just what I read.

pmercer · Post by **pmercer** » Wed Jul 30, 2008 4:39 pm

Funny boy.

The site I read it on was a ballistics research facilities website from memory. I'll try and find it. It was a really professional website, definately not done by white trash speaking out of their arse as many of th 'internet info' can be.

st33ve0 · Post by **st33ve0** » Wed Jul 30, 2008 7:06 pm

Honestly how hard would it be to pick up an extra barrel and bolt/action group at a gun show for an AR then give it the Conqueror treatment?