Factory SBRs?

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Factory SBRs?

Post by 3 »

Why are factory SBRs so desirable ?
How much demand for them would there be ?
What manufacturers offer them ?
How much do they add to the value of the rifle/receiver?
Last edited by 3 on Mon Jan 14, 2008 9:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Factory SBRs?

Post by PPGMD »

3 wrote:Why are factory SBRs so desirable ?
No engraving, no need to cut down the barrel. Barrel cutting is nice for fluted barrels.
3 wrote:What manufacturers offer them ?
Most of the smaller custom shops do factory SBRs (Anvil, Spikes, Tromix) for civilians. I believe you can get Colt's but they are hard to come by.
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Re: Factory SBRs?

Post by chromeluv »

3 wrote:Why are factory SBRs so desirable ?
No hassle of stripping down your complete lower down to 100% stripped, shipping it out and not having the gun for awhile.

Putting it back together can be a nuisance if you drop a detent in the sink or pop one up on the rug and you cannot find it...been there
How much demand for them would there be ?

ALOT. For example, with Noveske came out with his new hammer forged N4 platform, with a 14.5 with perm attached muzzle device...

First questions asked were "can I get it in 11.5, 10.5, 12.5" etc

If KAC came out with factory SBRs, they would move...and move quickly. Especially E3 SBRs, with the influx of the trust route for NFA items...very quickly

What manufacturers offer them?
RRA, Colt, Bushmaster through certain channels...Noveske are some of the more popular easier to get ones..

you can slap together LMTs, but not buy full rifles from them...
How much do they add to the value of the rifle/receiver?
Maybe not a financial addition, but definitely an intrinsic value of not having your lower disassembled, shipping your lower to an engraver (depending where you are not in your state might be hard to find)...

Getting a high quality SBR in from the factory like KAC would be worth the tax stamp for the transfer to alot of us id imagine..
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Post by new-arguy »

Well, it sort of depends....

While not all do, several companies offer them.

LMT does not, I dont think Armalite does either.

Rock River will sell dealers whatever rifle they offer with a short barrel. They charge you just the same as their standard guns, but add a $30 or $35 fee for them to file the Form 3 ( thought that was dumb). At least that's what they did when we order them.

Noveske offers them too. They do not add anything to the cost of theirs.

I have never ordered any from CMMG, but I think they offer them as well.

While I do not believe they offer them directly to dealers or their normal distributors, you can get factory short barreled Colt and Bushmasters that are legal to sell on the commercial market through a few Law Enforcement Distributors. Bushmasters are not more exensive.

Colt's are the only one's I have seen that cost so much more and while this is just a guess, I believe its simply because Colt charges more for them. Unlike most of the other well known companies, Colt doesnt seem to make a "ton" of standard guns that wind up being available to the commercial or LE market, even fewer SBRs. So the fact that they are not as available as the other brands makes many people more willing to pay the extra price.

Why they are desirable is debatable. You really dont save any money, in fact it's usually far less expensive to piece it together yourself. It is usually much easier to get a companies short barreled upper. If you get a complete lower, put it on a form 1 as a SBR, get it engraved, wait for the tax stamp and then purchase the upper and pop the two together, you can usually save a fair amount of cash. It's really a much more practical approach.

Getting a factory SBR really only saves you whatever time and money it takes to send your lower off to be engraved (marginal cost and time). It might make it easier to sell later on because the gun for sale wont have your personal, your companies or your trust's name engraved in it. But its easy enough to just sell the upper (which does not have to be engraved).

But there will always be people who love to get things as is from the factory. Im one of those guys. I know it doesnt make much sense, but I often like things for being a little different than something else. Especially if they are more rare. Some factory Colt short barrels just became available and I have a list of customers who want to buy them. I cant seem to get enough of them. I simply have more customers than rifles available. Keep in mind, Im not talking dozens, we're a small shop. But I bought the last three from the only place that I know had them, and I need at least 6 more. They just arent available right now.

We're marking the guns up the same exact dollar amount, and customers are paying $2000 for these basic, no "extras" guns, when the exact same gun with a 16" barrel is $700-$800 less. It doesnt make sense in terms of being practical. But the commercial market is filled with hobbyists and collectors more so than people who view their rifles as tools.

That being said, think about how much people pay for a car that has a factory color or interiror that isnt normal. Baseball cards, coins, whatever. Hell, my father colltect Boy Scout patches. Some of them sell for thousands of dollars. Guns are no different and people will do what they have to to get what they want.

Finally, if you are thinking of selling factory short barreled SR15's, do it. I'll buy the first one I could. It took me over a year to acquire, and then rebuild the ban era SR15 I have now into a SBR. I spend obscene amounts of the anything but obscene money I earn on my passion; guns, accessories, training, ammo, etc. If it fit in the budget, I'd buy a short barreled SR15 in a heartbeat. If it didnt fit in the budget, I'd make a budget for it!
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Post by NickB »

I want a KAC factory SBR, but I think members of this forum are a very niche market - a small fraction of the gun world who is willing to enter the NFA world. I think they would sell in small numbers, but if offering SBRs is a significant hassle for you, I think selling SBR uppers would be a reasonable compromise.

I'd really like to see a piston offering from KAC - something in the 10.5"-12.5" range. With all the attention the 416 is getting, I see no reason why you shouldn't be competing for the military dollar along side HK. I can't stand to see my tax dollars going to Germany and Belgium when they should be going to domestic companies like yours.
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Post by BriggsRi »

Look at it this way; it's the same as diversifying your portfolio. This is a very specific nitch market, Hobbyist, Collectors, Military & LE Buffs, etc...
We are all looking for something that says " that's the same SBR Rifle that the Military or LE uses!” or maybe "that's the same Rifle that I seen in that really cool movie."

When something comes from the Factory it automatically adds value, as compared to a “Do it your Selfer “doing it. The general public associates an intrinsic quality value from items that are Factory correct.

What I don't understand, is why some companies offer a SBR at a substantial rate over their comparable 16" offerings?

Multiple SBR upper offerings and complete SBR offerings would make good business sense.

Sign me up for a complete SBR, an 11.5" w/ a Suppressor - now that is just plain fun!
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Post by RR »

How about doing a small run and see how they sell?
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Post by NickB »

RR wrote:How about doing a small run and see how they sell?
I think a run of 100 would sell out in minutes, but a run of 1000 could take months.

What about a run of special guns? I know KAC makes things that aren't generally available to civilians. What about doing a factory SBR with some of those parts? That would justify a little higher cost, and the extra effort. :?:
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Post by rob_s »

Well, I'll have to disagree with some of what Neil wrote. :lol:

re: cost
I own two factory Colt 6933s, and I paid, average, $1300/ea for them, plus the tax and transfer. Colt 6920s routinely sell for $1200-$1300, so the initial direct cost is nearly identical. Then remember that I don't have to ship the lower someplace to have it engraved, pay for the engraving, etc. Hence a factory SBR, even a Colt, can prove to be very cost effective. My experience has borne out that if you want to build Colt quality, you will wind up paying damn near Colt prices.

re: why?
For me it was all of the above, plus not having to mark the lower. Whether for resale or whatever, not having my information marked on a lower is a good thing IMHO. I also bought "smart" in that the 6933s happened to be relatively limited run items, and I likely could re-sell them for more than I paid if I got into a financial situation where I needed to.


Trey-
I think a factory SR15 SBR would sell, but maybe not in the quantities that you'd need it to in order to make it worthwhile (some of which you and I discussed on the phone). There is a hidden benefit to it though, and that's marketing. If you even only sold 100 of them, at least 50 of those guys would be posting pictures of them all over the internet, and that would drum up attention and business in your renewed quest to re-enter the commercial market.

I think a good bit of what drives the requests you're getting is that ya'll have that SR-16 CQB on your site and it just looks like something any SBR fan would want! :D
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Post by new-arguy »

Rob is right about some of the Colt SBR's. There are some models available at the same price. I was not thinking of these models when I posted. I was thinking of their new models everyone is wanting me to get for them like their LE6921CQB or their LE6921SP. These are, as I understand it, new configurations, which sell for the prices I mentioned. $700 to $800 more than their standard 16" M4 6920 model. The only difference in any of them really is the barrel length and the amount people are willing to pay for a new item that is listed as a spcial run.
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Post by Wally »

If a factory SBR does not make financial sense to KAC, I would certainly be willing to purchase the 11.5 upper.

Just my .02!

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Post by chromeluv »

NickB wrote:
RR wrote:How about doing a small run and see how they sell?
I think a run of 100 would sell out in minutes, but a run of 1000 could take months.

What about a run of special guns? I know KAC makes things that aren't generally available to civilians. What about doing a factory SBR with some of those parts? That would justify a little higher cost, and the extra effort. :?:

Trey can step in obviously...but I do not think a "small run" could qualify to take up CNC machine time away from larger contracts or previously stated commitments like the SR15/16 project...

it seems to be a go or no go premise...
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Post by SCL »

IMHO SBR's are becoming far more common and desireable by the "military style" firearms shooters/collectors since the NFA Trust transfer has made NFA ownership a reality for lots and lots of shooters who couldn't get CLEO sign off and didn't want the hassle of forming a LLC and keeping up with it legal requirements.

Factory SBR's are more desireable because you avoid stripping lowers, paying someone to engrave, etc. etc. They also have greater resale since they aren't engraved with extra s--t like "ACB TRUST, CLEVELAND OH" on it.

Noveske is doing lots of SBR work; Tony Rumore at TROMIX bread and butter work is chopping down Saiga's to 8" SBS, lots of atermarkey SBR uppers are being sold, etc. The market is there and growing as the Trust Transfer method continues to make its rounds on the internet boards and people learn about it.

I think the trust route equally supplies to supressors - how many folks bought their first (and once you buy one you alway sbuy more) can in the past year??

Do it 3 - give us civies a shot at your SBR PDW - with suppressor!

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Post by Slick »

chromeluv wrote:
NickB wrote:
RR wrote:How about doing a small run and see how they sell?
I think a run of 100 would sell out in minutes, but a run of 1000 could take months.

What about a run of special guns? I know KAC makes things that aren't generally available to civilians. What about doing a factory SBR with some of those parts? That would justify a little higher cost, and the extra effort. :?:

Trey can step in obviously...but I do not think a "small run" could qualify to take up CNC machine time away from larger contracts or previously stated commitments like the SR15/16 project...

it seems to be a go or no go premise...
Aren't they already making all the necessary parts? Just put a SR16 CQB upper on a SR15 carbine lower, and voila, it wouldn't even need any different engraving.

Or am I missing something?
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Post by Hootiewho »

A good source to ask on this would be Clyde Armory, they sell more Factory Colt SBR's than anyone I know. Me and my Father have purchased 4 from them in the past few years. I know that he had a waiting list several years long before his first batch of 6933's came in; I was on it 2 years. For something like Knights; sure they would sell, and probably sell out quick, but if limited runs were made, they'd sell out even better.

If Trey cut loose with maybe 300 units, giving some of the guys that would put out pics of their guns on the net a discount and do a little, look what I got, good luck getting one picture post on places like AR15.com; subsequential batchs would sell like hell.
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Post by wolffie »

I bought a Colt Factory SBR, and love it. I plan on buying more. If KAC offered one, I'd buy it as well. I like factory guns for everything. Part of that is that I'm a collector, as well as a shooter, and I care for every gun I own like a collector would. Even though I shoot them, compete with them, etc., they still get immaculate care. From a collectors standpoint, anything with factory markings, that hasn't been marred by any customization, has more value on the resale market. (even though I no longer sell guns)

The other thing is that I have faith that a factory SBR from a top manufacturer will work. More faith in that than an SBR that was cobbled together on someones kitchen table.
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Post by Hootiewho »

I realize it would be a big gamble as far as tooling up and all efforts into getting the PDW into play, and I can't blame Knight's for being hesitant about not wanting to do it unless there was military backing and the round had a little bit more exposure/demand; but with the right amount of advertising, I am willing to bet that little baby would sell.

You already have a good portion of us that believes that we are living in the last bit of the "Good Ol Days" of firearms in this country. With the political climate being what it is with an election coming up, people will be buying the crap out of what they want in the next year or two. In every topic that the Scar or Masada is discussed, it never fails that one or more will say I hope they get it on the market before any potential future ban. Arms manufacturer's could use this bit of fear to their advantage, especially in introducing a new firearm like the PDW. If guys thought they'd only have a short window of opportunity to get one of any of the guns I have mentioned, watch out credit card. I'll bet there will be a lot of pissed off wives in the next two years, that is for sure.

I think that any Knight's Factory SBR wheither it's 5.56mm, 6.8 SPC, or the 6x35 would do well, I say extremely well. The only kicker is that buyers be assured that they would be able to get replacement parts, such as the new bolt design.
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Post by BriggsRi »

3,

Go ahead and sign me up! I'll take a SR-15 CQB and cancell my Colt 6933 order!
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Post by scottryan »

rob_s wrote:Well, I'll have to disagree with some of what Neil wrote. :lol:

re: cost
I own two factory Colt 6933s, and I paid, average, $1300/ea for them, plus the tax and transfer. Colt 6920s routinely sell for $1200-$1300, so the initial direct cost is nearly identical. Then remember that I don't have to ship the lower someplace to have it engraved, pay for the engraving, etc. Hence a factory SBR, even a Colt, can prove to be very cost effective. My experience has borne out that if you want to build Colt quality, you will wind up paying damn near Colt prices.

re: why?
For me it was all of the above, plus not having to mark the lower. Whether for resale or whatever, not having my information marked on a lower is a good thing IMHO. I also bought "smart" in that the 6933s happened to be relatively limited run items, and I likely could re-sell them for more than I paid if I got into a financial situation where I needed to.

Couldn't have said it better myself.
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Post by 3 »

It seems to me you guys are saying that a factory SBR receiver or parts gun is desirable but a complete reliable, guaranteed short barreled AR is even more desirable .
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Post by chromeluv »

3 wrote:It seems to me you guys are saying that a factory SBR receiver or parts gun is desirable but a complete reliable, guaranteed short barreled AR is even more desirable .
amen.
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Post by No. 6 »

3 wrote:It seems to me you guys are saying that a factory SBR receiver or parts gun is desirable but a complete reliable, guaranteed short barreled AR is even more desirable .
SBR cobbled together by someone...around $600
SBR LMT (with required engraving)...around $900
SBR KAC...........................................priceless!

A factory SBR would be highly desirable for a number of reasons, most of which have been stated. I hope that you decide to "test the waters" so to speak, because I would be very interested in purchasing one....or two.... KAC has an excellent reputation for reliability. Combine that with the rarity and ego factor of having the only one on the block, I think you could probably sell them faster than you could put them together. Now if we just could get the 1986 Gun Control Act repealed, I could see a Stoner 63 sitting in my safe....but only between trips to the range.
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Post by BriggsRi »

ummmm, Go ahead and sign me up! I'll take a SR-15 CQB and cancell my Colt 6933 order! :D
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Post by scottryan »

3 wrote:It seems to me you guys are saying that a factory SBR receiver or parts gun is desirable but a complete reliable, guaranteed short barreled AR is even more desirable .

I would look also into bringing the PDW to market in SBR form.

This can be open to both LE and civilian markets who don't want/can't have full auto.

All of this kinda hinges on the election and if you want to invest time and money into going through with these ideas, giving the risk of a ban.
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Post by lawless »

The whole PDW thing has already been hashed out. Its not going to happen unless the GOV puts in a huge order.
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