can you get in trouble for

pneumagger · Post by **pneumagger** » Wed Mar 04, 2009 10:50 pm

hving a machine shop fabricate 80% baffles for you?

For example, say you have form 1 and send a shop some prints for K baffles without the bore drilled.
Or a tube with threaded ends.

Technically, you never "gave" anyone an NFA device and by the time they get into your hands... the form 1 covers the parts as part of the suppressor you're building. I'm thinking the worst that can happen is the machine shop is in hot water.

I'm just thinking here.

Selectedmarksman · Post by **Selectedmarksman** » Wed Mar 04, 2009 11:23 pm

I think the whole "80%" thing is somewhat of a hoax. The ATF has made individual 'interpretations' on what is or is not a complete firearm (such as 1911's not having slide rails cut) but I don't think the "80%" figure appears in the law or any interpretations anywhere.

AAA · Post by **AAA** » Thu Mar 05, 2009 12:31 am

Unfortunately no such thing as 80% silencer parts.

skychaser53 · Post by **skychaser53** » Thu Mar 05, 2009 1:10 am

THEY only put 80% of your rear end in jail for 80% parts..

MAJ MALFUNCTION · Post by **MAJ MALFUNCTION** » Thu Mar 05, 2009 3:02 am

skychaser53 wrote:THEY only put 80% of your rear end in jail for 80% parts..

And while you're locked up your cell-mate Bubba only violates you 80%.

CanNotHear · Post by **CanNotHear** » Thu Mar 05, 2009 3:04 am

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pneumagger · Post by **pneumagger** » Thu Mar 05, 2009 6:53 am

AAA wrote:Unfortunately no such thing as 80% silencer parts.

yeah, but the point I'm trying to make is how can it be illegal to place an order an order with a machine shop for silencer parts.
They are committing the crime by possessing unregistered silencers. When parts are given to you, your form 1 covers them.

I'm proposing that the risk exists soley for the machine shop.

Artful · Post by **Artful** » Thu Mar 05, 2009 7:15 am

pneumagger wrote:
AAA wrote:Unfortunately no such thing as 80% silencer parts.
yeah, but the point I'm trying to make is how can it be illegal to place an order an order with a machine shop for silencer parts.
They are committing the crime by possessing unregistered silencers. When parts are given to you, your form 1 covers them.

I'm proposing that the risk exists soley for the machine shop.

Remember, it's intent for ATFE as well, so if they know what they are working on and do any work wilth the intent of making a silencer part without a form 1 they have just stepped in it.

pneumagger · Post by **pneumagger** » Thu Mar 05, 2009 7:32 am

Artful wrote:
pneumagger wrote:
AAA wrote:Unfortunately no such thing as 80% silencer parts.
yeah, but the point I'm trying to make is how can it be illegal to place an order an order with a machine shop for silencer parts.
They are committing the crime by possessing unregistered silencers. When parts are given to you, your form 1 covers them.

I'm proposing that the risk exists soley for the machine shop.
Remember, it's intent for ATFE as well, so if they know what they are working on and do any work wilth the intent of making a silencer part without a form 1 they have just stepped in it.

True, but YOU as their customer have done nothing wrong. So wht if they could get in trouble...
You possess no unregistered parts and never gave the shop any parts to do work on (transfer of a registered item).
Once you take possession of a finished pieces from the shop, they are registered because of a valid Form 1.

Artful · Post by **Artful** » Thu Mar 05, 2009 8:39 am

So let's look at this from an agressive ATF agent's point of view you contracted to have these suppressor parts partially completed before you have your Form 1 approved, right? You duped the poor machine shop into making illegal parts for you - even thou not completed. The Machineshoip owner is no dummy and recognizes what you are doing and goes to the said agressive ATF agent - they work together to make the parts giving immunity to the machineshiop, and when they deliver the parts to you - the arrest is made, even though the part is only mostly completed you are intending to finish the process on your own and don't have legal permission to do so - right. And you think an ATF agent wouldn't want to make an arrest / notch in his file for someone making a can with out a stamp?

pneumagger · Post by **pneumagger** » Thu Mar 05, 2009 8:55 am

Artful wrote:So let's look at this from an agressive ATF agent's point of view you contracted to have these suppressor parts partially completed before you have your Form 1 approved, right? You duped the poor machine shop into making illegal parts for you - even thou not completed. The Machineshoip owner is no dummy and recognizes what you are doing and goes to the said agressive ATF agent - they work together to make the parts giving immunity to the machineshiop, and when they deliver the parts to you - the arrest is made, even though the part is only mostly completed you are intending to finish the process on your own and don't have legal permission to do so - right. And you think an ATF agent wouldn't want to make an arrest / notch in his file for someone making a can with out a stamp?

No no no... I'm saying what if you HAVE your form 1 in hand and then call a shop to have several parts made and then mailed to you.
The moment you take possesion, they are under registration of your approved form 1.

camoxjeep · Post by **camoxjeep** » Thu Mar 05, 2009 9:08 am

pneumagger wrote:
Artful wrote:So let's look at this from an agressive ATF agent's point of view you contracted to have these suppressor parts partially completed before you have your Form 1 approved, right? You duped the poor machine shop into making illegal parts for you - even thou not completed. The Machineshoip owner is no dummy and recognizes what you are doing and goes to the said agressive ATF agent - they work together to make the parts giving immunity to the machineshiop, and when they deliver the parts to you - the arrest is made, even though the part is only mostly completed you are intending to finish the process on your own and don't have legal permission to do so - right. And you think an ATF agent wouldn't want to make an arrest / notch in his file for someone making a can with out a stamp?
No no no... I'm saying what if you HAVE your form 1 in hand and then call a shop to have several parts made and then mailed to you.
The moment you take possesion, they are under registration of your approved form 1.

So basically your saying "%uck the machine shop" if they dont know their doing something wrong then thats their fault????? Just so you can reap the benifits and possibly not get into trouble????? ATF should throw your @ss in prison just on internet constructive intent alone

.....................

pneumagger · Post by **pneumagger** » Thu Mar 05, 2009 9:42 am

I never said I intend on doing this - it's just a hypothetcal question. I don't have a form 1, I haven't applied for one, I have a small mill and 20" lathe in my basement and work in a facility with about 2 dozen CNC machines (3,4 & 5 axis). I think it's safe to say I have access to any necessary equipment without skirting ATF regs. Way to get your panties a bunch there

To answer you're question... Yes, it's a F--k the machine shop mentality. Technically, one wouldn't be liable for the machine shop's actions and lack of registration.

Artful · Post by **Artful** » Thu Mar 05, 2009 8:52 pm

I'd say if your on site it would ok without issue with the form 1, but without the form 1 holder it would be a no go.

Now we all know that you could draw up spec's for something that will work in a suppressor and the machine shop would never know what it is for. Or just pick up standard parts to use with or without modification.

But to be safe for the machineshop if I was having anywork done I'd say I have to be on site with the form 1 (actually a copy) in case there was any investigation into what was going on.

bert01 · Post by **bert01** » Fri Mar 06, 2009 9:48 am

But if they just made K baffles with no hole bored in them then that is just a pretty paper wieght regardless of what it could be used for, it in no way will make a fire arm any quieter. so what would they get in trouble for? same goes for a threaded tube, i mean you can buy pipe nipples at any hardware store.

I dont see where any wrong could be proven as long as the form1 holder makes the part usable in the silencer, not the machine shop.

Artful · Post by **Artful** » Fri Mar 06, 2009 11:12 am

bert01 wrote:But if they just made K baffles with no hole bored in them then that is just a pretty paper wieght regardless of what it could be used for, it in no way will make a fire arm any quieter. so what would they get in trouble for? same goes for a threaded tube, i mean you can buy pipe nipples at any hardware store.

I dont see where any wrong could be proven as long as the form1 holder makes the part usable in the silencer, not the machine shop.

Aw, grasshopper you don't know your enforcement people very well do you, If you made a part that made your gun loader, do you think they could arrest you. - they have - there was someone trying to make a suppressor but it actually amplied the noise instead - but they got to put him in jail as his confessed attempt was to make something to quiet the gun. Remember Laws and Logic don't have to go hand in hand.

skychaser53 · Post by **skychaser53** » Fri Mar 06, 2009 1:28 pm

pneumagger wrote:
For example, say you have form 1 and send a shop some prints for K baffles without the bore drilled.
Or a tube with threaded ends.
.

Seriously though.... when the baffle is in the lathe and you have already shaped it. you want to do the bore then. You want everything concentric. It might make the lathing easier also if the bore is drilled first..

RavenArmament · Post by **RavenArmament** » Fri Mar 06, 2009 10:03 pm

Would you be in legal trouble? Probably not in the ATF's eyes.

Would this be unethical to sucker an innocent party into an illegal act for your personal gain? Most definitely.

Selectedmarksman · Post by **Selectedmarksman** » Fri Mar 06, 2009 10:54 pm

It took the ATF three years to reverse their decision that shoe strings were machine guns. If you think they'd let you go for attempting to skirt the 'spirit' of the law with a technicality like this you're playing a dangerous game.

The ATF really shouldn't exist, but as long as they do, do not F--k with them.

Diomed · Post by **Diomed** » Sat Mar 07, 2009 12:22 am

Artful wrote:Aw, grasshopper you don't know your enforcement people very well do you, If you made a part that made your gun loader, do you think they could arrest you. - they have - there was someone trying to make a suppressor but it actually amplied the noise instead - but they got to put him in jail as his confessed attempt was to make something to quiet the gun. Remember Laws and Logic don't have to go hand in hand.

Well, in fairness, the statute does take intent into account. So if you intend to make a silencer, you've made a silencer.

Now that makes all kinds of sense, doesn't it?

can you get in trouble for

can you get in trouble for

Re: can you get in trouble for