Well I just got back two approved form 1 SBR's and on the back of one of my forms it is highlited and says "consult counsel w/ the filing of your trust, proves to be invalid" So like yeah, does anyone know a good trust laywer in Maine? My first two went thru with no question in about a month. I am thinking it might be one of the co trustees is a minor? Well for like two more weeks she is. Anyways input would be appriciated. Thanks!

Interesting. They approved it still? Wow.

One of the lawyers on here said something about them approving it, has nothing to do with whether your trust is valid or not. I don't remember what he said though.

Let me be the first to say "contact an estate planning lawyer ASAP".

They approved it though? Interesting indeed.............prepare to be JBT'd!

Also the "Trust trolls" will be spreading this thread all over the internet in 3,2,1,...........

I just contacted a law firm in my state that specializes in trust and estate law. I will post up here as soon as I get it fixed with what was wrong with it. I am then going to send the amendment in to the atf so they have it on record too.

Right, because in light of this information, anybody who ever had any second thoughts about the complete and utter superiority of the trust transfer is CLEARLY a troll.

/ all my goodies on individual F1s and F4s ....

Cortland moves in to smack a bitch!! Did it hurt Arevalo?

It is a troll move, trust is allowed in the 1934 NFA Act...........

http://www.atf.gov/pub/fire-explo_pub/nfa.htm

Person. A partnership, company, association, trust, estate, or corporation, as well as a natural person.




Since this only applies to "individuals", Clearly any route besides the "individual" route is already better/less hassles:

(e) Identification of taxpayer. If the taxpayer is an individual, with the initial return such person shall securely attach to Form 5630.7 a photograph of the individual 2 x 2 inches in size, clearly showing a full front view of the features of the individual with head bare, with the distance from the top of the head to the point of the chin approximately 1 1/4 inches, and which shall have been taken within 6 months prior to the date of completion of the return. The individual shall also attach to the return a properly completed FBI Form FD-258 (Fingerprint Card). The fingerprints must be clear for accurate classification and should be taken by someone properly equipped to take them: Provided, That the provisions of this paragraph shall not apply to individuals who have filed with ATF a properly executed Application for License under 18 U.S.C. Chapter 44, Firearms, ATF Form 7 (5310.12)(12-93 edition), as specified in § 178.44(a).





It's on now bitches!

troll in Internet slang, is someone who posts controversial, inflammatory, irrelevant or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum or chat room, with the primary intent of provoking other users into an emotional response or to generally disrupt normal on-topic discussion




My comments are not aimed at you TypeR632 FWIW.

The "invalid but approved" thing is making my head hurt. I know the examiners aren't lawyers, but they have lawyers available - presumably they're the ones who decided it was invalid (and if they did, one hopes they were admitted to the Maine bar or something). And if it's invalid, it's unable to hold any property.

Head hurts so much.

Just get a competent lawyer and have your trust restated. Then send a copy to ATF for their records and all will be fine. Otherwise...

There's a reason why an NFA Trust should be set up by a lawyer who specializes in such things rather than using quicken.

I prefer individual ownership for now. But an LLC would be my alternate vehicle of choice. I've looked at all three. I would lawyer up for a trust or an LLC.

It's all bullshit anyway. The list of prohibited persons is the same for NFA and Title I. Why not just fast track through NICS and be done with it? Is anyone really going to straw purchase a $25k machine gun? I can't think why else they need fingerprints and a photo for every damn transfer (not on a trust or LLC).

You really *need* to determine why it was not valid. If it is an issue with a beneficiaries age, then, generally speaking, the trust is valid, but may be invalid because of the NFA if you died tomorrow. However, if it is something some serious where the trust, as it is currently, is invalid, then the transfer to the trust is invalid. You cannot transfer something into a trust that does not exist, and a trust does not exist if it wasn't established pursuant to your state's laws regarding trusts. Thus, if you have an invalid trust, you better fix it and request an official determination by the BATFE that your newly amended trust has the right to ownership/possession of the firearm. I know you aren't going to like this but if it was me, I would void the transfer to the trust (if it isn't merely the beneficiary age issue) and resubmit the transfer once you amend/establish your trust.

I will only say that issues like this are the sole reason I have been stating for a long time that people should be consulting an attorney.

Has anyone here ever had a lawyer look at a WillMaker trust?

We have had one amended by a well known NFA lawyer for a friend of mine that was headed to Iraq. The lawyer amended it so that my friend had someone in the states that could purchase/receive NFA items for the trust while he was gone.

When I first contacted the lawyer he didn't want to do it but he eventually said he would look at it since my friend was headed to Iraq. A week or so after sending it over I spoke with him and he said he could make the changes for him ( he did it at a great price also). While we were on the phone I asked him if he could see any reason that the trust wouldn't have been legal before he made the changes? He said it didn't have the NFA specific stuff he would of had in it but it was a legal trust in Florida. He makes his living making trust and told me he believes a lawyer should always do a trust so that you have someone to stand up for the trust if anyone ever challenges it but that he didn't see anything invalid about the WillMaker trust.

I don't know what's going on with TheCowboyofKhaos trust or anything about the laws in Maine but in Florida WilMaker is a valid trust as long as you do an individual trust and don't try to change it.

Yes, this has been an issue of debate many times in the past. Quicken isn't the only software with problems:

http://blog.princelaw.com/2009/3/3/can- ... -nfa-trust

OOPPS, never thought of it as a sting operation, HIDE YOUR DOGS NOW!!!!

Well over 7 items approved and on my trust using Quicken and which had a cursory glance by a competent lawyer including my military Office of Counsel.

Something is amiss here and I don't like it.

I have written an article , Using Quicken to prepare a trust: The good, the bad, and ugly!,on some of the problems with Quicken as an estate planning tool. There are even more problems in using Quicken for a NFA firearms Trust.

I have seen several invalid trusts that were approved by the ATF but this is the first time I have seen them approve a knowingly invalid trust or amendment as stated above. I would be interested in seeing the documents to find out what was done.

It would not surprise me if the ATF uses issues like this to try to justify a change in how they deal with Trusts.

Wow, that did not take long-

http://blog.princelaw.com/2009/4/20/bat ... id-u-trust

And DO NOT TRANSFER it or MAKE IT until you have it resolved. That is what the BATFE MAN is giving you heads up on, get your TRUST FIXED BEFORE you take possession of the NFA item.

Best advice so far, besides my own of course.

He shouldn't make it, PERIOD. If the trust is invalid, as the BATFE stated, then even by amending your trust and making the SBR, the approval would have been made to a non-legal entity because the trust was not properly established. Unless the issue is solely the co-trustee being a minor, you should void the transfer and resubmit. It just isn't worth taking the chance. If you void it, you will eventually get the $200 back and you won't have to worry about any issues in the future.

Another question is what should he do for other property "already possessed by the trust" if it's not valid(other than the minor beneficiary issue)?

The nice thing about a trust is that it can be fixed. You can amend and restate a trust with a new document that becomes effective the date the trust was originally created. We have amended and restated many invalid trusts. Once ATF has been provided with a copy of the corrected trust, transactions can resume.

Trust are very different than LLC's or Corporations. If you have an invalid corporation or LLC you must form a new valid entity. To change a trust there are often few statutory requirements including that it be in writing. A trust becomes valid upon both the creation of a valid trust agreement (oral or written) and funding.

Once a trust is modified, transfers can resume. Generally the principal of estoppel would cure defects in the past if the amendment was done through an amendment and restatement. In this type of case we would not recommend a separate amendment which did not restate the trust back to the date of creation.

While the trust laws are similar form state to state, each state has its own slight differences, That is why we have attorneys in more than 40 states to review the trusts and make changes necessary for validly creating trusts in your state.

Unfortunately some individuals are only concerned with receiving a Title II firearm and do not consider the effects of making a huge mistake like we are talking about here. Its one thing to color your own hair, you can always get a professional to fix it, cut it off, or let it grow out, but the only way to fix a trust is when you find out about it. Often this is too late as it happens after death. Then you cannot fix the trust or any criminal issues associated with it.

If the trust was invalid, the property was never owned by the trust. It should still be the property of the original owner. If the trust is valid as it pertains to any property currently held by the trust, then it can be disposed of according to the rules of the trust. If it's a $1 bill, who cares. If it's a firearm, then follow the rules to remove it from the trust.

Keep in mind all of this is coming from a guy that doesn't even have a trust established yet. Still trying to find a good lawyer in Montana that is competent in NFA matters.

My NFA-knowledgeable attorney friends have advised me to transfer my NFA goodies individually, and failing that to a corporation. YMMV.

Typically, you will find that attorneys that don't practice in a specific area, AKA Trusts, Corps...etc, won't advise a client to go that route. I am very cognizant of the claimed issues with a trust, but trusts have been around the legal arena for FAR longer than corporations. While a trust, in many states, does not need to be filed with the state (that's a plus in my book since no one needs to know of its existence), that does not make it less legitimate than a corp or an individual. All are legal entities. And like all legal entities, you need someone who can competently draft and institute it. In some states, where people are concerned with being able to sell the corporation without a transfer, they cannot form a trust that never ends because of the rule against perpetuities. In PA, we have done away with the rule against perpetuities and you can have a never ending trust. Moreover, unless you have a spendthrift provision in the trust, the beneficiary can sell his/her allotment to someone else. In a perpetual trust, the benefit that can be sold is merely a life estate in the use of the property.

Anyone besides me think it might be an era by BATFE?

I'm glad I live in TN and don't have to deal with that crap

As said before, DO NOT BUILD the SBR. Contact the NFA branch, tell them the SBRs were never built, ask them to initiate 2 tax refunds, and send them the forms so they can void them.

CYA. Draw up a valid trust, then start over.

First off, I already have two SBR's on the trust. Have had them for about a year, they form 1'd no problem. Second I don't understand why they would now decide there is something wrong with my trust. Also, how dumb would I have to be to build the SBR's when I have an issue with the paperwork. I will update again when I get the trust amended to fix whatever the problem was. Also whoever posted about this on their law page I do not appreciate it. For all we know this could be an error on the ATF's part. Why people are jumping to conclusions about this I don't know. I will hopefully know what the problem is in a few days. I am in Afghanistan and it's not like I can just drive to a legal office. Steven

Why you ask?

Becasue Trust Trolls have been waiting for a thread like this, they have been dying to jump all over something like this.....

I like the idea of a corporation because I can have the State Corporation Commission at my back telling the ATF, "yep, this bitch is a sho-nuff legal entity." With a trust, an ATF lawyer says it's invalid and then what? A legal battle. That might not make it any less valid, but it has the possibility to make it a much bigger hassle if I have to prove it to the ATF.

It's also much harder to have a corporation that you think is valid but is actually invalid than a trust which you think is valid but is actually invalid.

Bullshit............

Stop your pussy ass fear mongering.......

BUT I SAID SO!

I lol'd.

Thats exactly what it is.. People need to get over it.. ATF APPROVED the transfer.. Now 2 things have happened here. Either the examiner is a moron, and committed an illegal act by approving an invalid trust, or it is something simple like the OP said to where it just needs a quick provision and sent back to ATF...

Cortland, just so you are aware, don't expect your state to stand up for you at ALL if the BATFE decides to attack. It will be no different than a trust. You are going to spend the $'s fighting it. With trust's, you have your legislature that has enacted statutory provisions on exactly what you need to have for your trust to be valid. However, don't expect your state to stand up for you there either....

ArevaloSOCOM, you know that I have warned people of this exact occurrence for a long time. Moreover, this isn't the first trust the BATFE has declared invalid. I have seen 9 trusts so far that the BATFE has rejected. However, and more disconcerting, in this situation that BATFE is acknowledging the trust to be invalid (I don't know how that written language would be an error) but still approving the transfer. Of all the possible scenarios, in my mind, this is the second worst possible (the first being that they just approve it and then commence with a forfeiture action with no notice). Here, they have actually approved a transfer to a known non-legal entity. Seems like a trap to me...

Yep.

The BATFE was kind enough to give the guy the heads up.

He simply can correct it like dmgwork said to do........

But it's more fun to insit that "individual is bettter than shit and that, and thank god this and you should do that!".

Yeah you and me both.

Just because a state gives approval of a corporation does not mean there are not problems with the corporation. While states do some initial review of the Articles of Incorporation, it is possible to have a corporation created and not have a valid corporation for purposes of ATF and NFA purposes. Most corporations require specific formalities to maintain the corporate entity. As years go one, those documents may not be filed timely and thus the corporation may be administratively dissolved.

This is a real possibility with the disability or death of the shareholder or shareholders and can create significant liability and one of the major reasons why a trust is a much better entity to own NFA firearms than a Corporation or LLC ( IN MANY CASES). NOTE: Each persons goals and specific family situation must be evaluated to determine which entity is best for their situation and there are no absolutes with entity choices anyone who tells you otherwise should be suspect.

Please keep us posted.

I know what was said in my conversation with a lawyer and I hope yours go as well as mine did. I'm sorry we have members of this comunity that are enjoying your troubles.

Enough already. Call up your pal Rob Howard, get it straightened out and let us know the results.

This is twice he has made a liar of you.

1. You must submit your trust; and
2. The ATF does not determine if your trust is valid.

Assuming he restates the trust and all goes well, what should he do with the two items already in the (invalid) trust?

Sell them? Destroy them?

He should have his attorney contact the BATFE and request guidance. Any declaration of the BATFE MUST be in writing so that it will protect him in the future. I know one attorney who was told, only orally, the amending the trust would be sufficient.

I just got to look at my forms, i had my Bro scan and email them all to me. THEY ARE NOT APPROVED. They have the ATF number they stamp at the top of them, so my family told me they were aproved. They each have the paper with them saying that the trust is invalid, and to correct it and re submit to the atf address listed. I hopefully will have this fixed shortly.

Dude! You had everyone scratching their head.

Ha ha

I approve.

Well, that settles that. Scurry along now, Trust Trolls.

Damn internet has been down for awhile, I was just kidding with you Arevalo. Peace Out Bitches......

There are several NFA Trust / LLC lawyers in my area. That is their specialty just like some states have many, many PI lawyers (50 at last count).

They all use software to generate the boilerplate. But then they go in and insert the magic legal incantations to make it NFA specific.

They also all say that when you use a lawyer, if he screws up, you can sue for malpractice. If you use one of the software packages out there and you screw up, you are up some smelly creek without a locomotion device.

If I did a lot of transfers or my local CLEO stopped signing off, then I would certainly use either a trust or LLC. But I would also use an NFA lawyer to set it up.

Not so fast - what about the SBRs the allegedly-invalid trust owns?

Already up on AR15.com..........that didn't take too long.