Converting a Pistol to Rifle

JustAnotherName · **Joined:** Tue Mar 13, 2007 2:21 pm **Posts:** 433

I ran into this gun broker ad. At first I thought illegal AOW because of the butt stock and FVG. But than It looks like a 16 in barrel and the guy is only selling a "kit". So is it illegal?

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewIt ... 495214#PIC

Quote:

YOU ARE BIDDING ON "THE ULTIMATE SURVIVAL TOOL!" THIS ITEM DOES NOT REQUIRE A FFL, TURN YOUR GLOCK 22 INTO A FIREBREATING MACHINE.
THIS IS BRAND NEW IN THE BOX WITH FULL FACORY WARRANTY.

Finally, something truly new and exciting in the firearms market! Mech Tech is proud to present its innovative product line of Carbine Conversion Units.
The Mech Tech Carbine Conversion Unit (CCU) is a handgun accessory - technically not a firearm. The purpose of the CCU is to simply convert an autoloading pistol to a slick shooting shoulder stocked semi-auto carbine.

The Benefits: Greater range, accuracy, and up to 24% higher bullet velocity with the very same off the shelf ammo you now use in your pistol, and the
CCU will easily handle +P ammo. All of this makes our CCU - "THE ULTIMATE SURVIVAL TOOL!"

The conversion process is simple, requiring no gunsmithing or tools!
The pistol's frame slides neatly into the Carbine Conversion Unit. The pistol's disassembly mechanism is used to lock the frame securely to the CCU
body. The CCU functions as a straight blowback system and features a 16 1/4 inch barrel and standard Weaver style sight base. The assembled carbine uses the pistol's magazine and ammunition making it the most versatile handgun accessory!

WhisperFan · **Joined:** Sat Jun 16, 2007 9:08 pm **Posts:** 1204

A friend of mine got a letter that says that type of conversion kit is illegal

I think it is BS and it is just as legal as a the Thompson Conversion ... but I don't have the desire to make a kit like this or the money to fight with the ATF in court, should I ever get charged.

Snake-eater 1 · **Posted:** Wed May 20, 2009 6:07 pm

I would find it hard to believe that MechTech could be in business for as long as they have been if their product is illegal. They make these CCUs in a variety of calibers and use Glock, 1911 and other pistol frames. But I'm not an NFA lawyer, and I don't stay at Holiday Inns, so...?

cyclesarge · **Posted:** Wed May 20, 2009 6:51 pm

I think the carbine from the O.P. is legit because you CANNOT ad just the butt stock without the longer barrel. I have been trying to figure all this out because I'd like to be able to convert my Ruger Charger to a rifle and back.

Conqueror · **Posted:** Wed May 20, 2009 8:37 pm

The ATF's position that the opinion only applies to T/C is a giant bowl of bullshit. That's like saying DC v. Heller only applies to Dick Heller and no one else can have handguns in DC, or Brown v. Board of Education only applied to Oliver Brown and public schools can still keep other black kids out.

Diomed · **Posted:** Thu May 21, 2009 2:59 am

Conqueror wrote:

The ATF's position that the opinion only applies to T/C is a giant bowl of bullshit.

That's only part of their issue. The other part is that once you put the pistol into a rifle configuration, you cannot put it back without registering it. This is under the "rifle cannot become a pistol" doctrine, when you take the stock off and put the original barrel back in you've made a weapon made from a rifle, which is regulated under the NFA.

Do they prosecute? I'm not aware of it happening. But the possibility exists.

Crosshair · **Posted:** Mon May 25, 2009 11:36 pm

Diomed wrote:

That's only part of their issue. The other part is that once you put the pistol into a rifle configuration, you cannot put it back without registering it. This is under the "rifle cannot become a pistol" doctrine, when you take the stock off and put the original barrel back in you've made a weapon made from a rifle, which is regulated under the NFA.

That would go against all other ATF precedent. (Not that they would never do such a thing.) My T/C Encore was built and sold as a handgun. If I slap a Rifle barrel and stock on it and sell it, the receiver is still a handgun.

A shotgun that has had a stock on it at any time cannot be converted to an AOW because once a stocked shotgun, always a stocked shotgun acording to the ATF. It goes with the ATF position of "Once a machinegun, always a machinegun.

My 1911 frame was made, sold, and bought as a handgun. I attach the frame to my Mech-Tech upper and it becomes a handgun that has a 16" barrel and a stock. Just like the T/C kits.

Not to mention that in US vs Thompson Arms they cited a gun from the 1950's, I can't remember the name of it, that was a 22 handgun that could have the frame mated to a rifle upper receiver. The ATF declared that that gun was legal under the NFA.

Diomed · **Posted:** Tue May 26, 2009 2:34 am

Crosshair wrote:

That would go against all other ATF precedent. (Not that they would never do such a thing.) My T/C Encore was built and sold as a handgun. If I slap a Rifle barrel and stock on it and sell it, the receiver is still a handgun.

A shotgun that has had a stock on it at any time cannot be converted to an AOW because once a stocked shotgun, always a stocked shotgun acording to the ATF. It goes with the ATF position of "Once a machinegun, always a machinegun.

I can only offer my reading of the regulations, which is that once a rifle has been made, it cannot be returned to the status of a pistol. It becomes a firearm made from a rifle, which, insofar as ATF is concerned, is a short barreled rifle (it's not, but ATF doesn't see it that way. It doesn't really matter because both are regulated the same). From ATF's statements I think they read it the same way I do.

You have to read the definitions at 27 CFR Â§479.11, specifically those for "firearm", "make", "pistol" and "rifle".

Quote:

My 1911 frame was made, sold, and bought as a handgun. I attach the frame to my Mech-Tech upper and it becomes a handgun that has a 16" barrel and a stock. Just like the T/C kits.

You have made it a rifle. Once you have made it a rifle, anything else you do to it is making something from a rifle.

Quote:

Not to mention that in US vs Thompson Arms they cited a gun from the 1950's, I can't remember the name of it, that was a 22 handgun that could have the frame mated to a rifle upper receiver. The ATF declared that that gun was legal under the NFA.

I wouldn't put too much faith in ATF rulings from that era. The NFA of 1934 was a different beast from the NFA of 1968.

WhisperFan · **Joined:** Sat Jun 16, 2007 9:08 pm **Posts:** 1204

Crosshair wrote:

My 1911 frame was made, sold, and bought as a handgun. I attach the frame to my Mech-Tech upper and it becomes a handgun that has a 16" barrel and a stock. Just like the T/C kits.

Begin sarcasm .....

This is great news .... My AR was made, sold, and bought as a semi-auto. I can install a full auto sear and full auto bolt carrier group. Then it is just a semi-auto that can fire really fast.

End sarcasm. :wink:

Crosshair · **Posted:** Tue May 26, 2009 8:38 pm

If the T/C Encore and Contender guns aren't considered illegal, I don't see how they could declare these illegal. They would shut them down like they did with the Atkins Accelerator if they really were. The ATF is as consistent as the North Dakota spring, no surprise that they don't know what is legal.

Quote:

This is great news .... My AR was made, sold, and bought as a semi-auto. I can install a full auto sear and full auto bolt carrier group. Then it is just a semi-auto that can fire really fast.

My uncle has quite a few guns and personally owns a fully functional machine shop. The possession of any autoloading gun and a machine shop is probably constructive possession for a machine gun according to the ATF if you asked them. :roll:

Fudmottin · **Joined:** Sat Jan 31, 2009 7:36 pm **Posts:** 1166

Just the machine shop should be enough.

They work well enough in the UK.

Crosshair · **Posted:** Tue May 26, 2009 8:52 pm

Fudmottin wrote:

Just the machine shop should be enough.

They work well enough in the UK.

Just wait and see what happens when they realize that he has access to massive amounts of fertilizer, diesel fuel, and large trucks. :shock:

/He's a farmer.

YugoRPK · **Joined:** Wed Apr 02, 2008 3:56 am **Posts:** 5287

Snake-eater 1 wrote:

I would find it hard to believe that MechTech could be in business for as long as they have been if their product is illegal. They make these CCUs in a variety of calibers and use Glock, 1911 and other pistol frames. But I'm not an NFA lawyer, and I don't stay at Holiday Inns, so...?

MechTech doesnt sell guns, they sell parts. Nothing they sell is illegal. According the ATF it is completely legal to build a pistol into a rifle. Going back again is the problem and would require a form 4 to build a weapon made from a rifle.

Crosshair · **Posted:** Tue May 26, 2009 10:02 pm

YugoRPK wrote:

MechTech doesnt sell guns, they sell parts. Nothing they sell is illegal. According the ATF it is completely legal to build a pistol into a rifle. Going back again is the problem and would require a form 4 to build a weapon made from a rifle.

So in other words, it's like 922(r). A law that is on the books, but cannot and is not enforced.

YugoRPK · **Joined:** Wed Apr 02, 2008 3:56 am **Posts:** 5287

Crosshair wrote:

YugoRPK wrote:

MechTech doesnt sell guns, they sell parts. Nothing they sell is illegal. According the ATF it is completely legal to build a pistol into a rifle. Going back again is the problem and would require a form 4 to build a weapon made from a rifle.

So in other words, it's like 922(r). A law that is on the books, but cannot and is not enforced.

Its not a 922(r) thing . Its NFA. Same deal as the NFA in the real world if you think about it. Build yourself a non papered SBR and shoot it all you want until you get caught. Chances are you won't be. How about a nice silenced machinegun. No ones the wiser . It all up to YOUR level of respect for the law and level of precaution. Calculated risk. Some people have stronger stomachs for it than the rest of us. Bubba in the shower is more of a threat to some people than others.

Fudmottin · **Joined:** Sat Jan 31, 2009 7:36 pm **Posts:** 1166

The risks may be low. But the consequences pretty much make up for them with room to spare. Unlike the States, the Feds don't tend to give out minimum sentences and fines. And they don't let you out early.

At least that is what I hear.

And once you're out, you have no vote and not gun rights. Good luck finding a job too.

YugoRPK · **Joined:** Wed Apr 02, 2008 3:56 am **Posts:** 5287

Fudmottin wrote:

The risks may be low. But the consequences pretty much make up for them with room to spare. Unlike the States, the Feds don't tend to give out minimum sentences and fines. And they don't let you out early.

At least that is what I hear.

And once you're out, you have no vote and not gun rights. Good luck finding a job too.

Reality time. Ive personally known two people go to federal jail on NFA charges. You hear about 10 years 10.000 fine per violation. Thats the maximum sentence. One guy got 2 years for one gun. The other got 8 years for over 40 NFA violations including explosives. What they both had in common was they were trying to sell them and EVERYONE knew what they had so the "buyers" ended up being undercover informants. Too rich for my blood but that that 10 year thing with a grain of salt. That said Federal time is no possibility of parole hard time.

Gun rights after a felony? Just get your wife to buy them. Works for G. Gordon Liddy.

Fudmottin · **Joined:** Sat Jan 31, 2009 7:36 pm **Posts:** 1166

I've heard G. Gordon Liddy say that his wife has quite an arms collection.

I don't know what a minimum sentence is. But even if it was one year in prison and no fine, that is more than I'm willing to take. A year of life is a long time.

The felony thing still applies. You are still a prohibited person. You still can not own or carry a firearm and you still can not vote.

And short of getting a radio talk show, jobs are likely to be hard to come by.

Abiqua · **Posted:** Wed May 27, 2009 12:14 pm

The loss of voting rights also depends on what state you live in. Some states still allow you to vote and some don't.

Crosshair · **Posted:** Wed May 27, 2009 11:36 pm

Fudmottin wrote:

Its not a 922(r) thing . Its NFA.

No, my point was that it is similar issue that 922(r). I've seen plenty of guns in stores all over that are not 922(r) compliant or are very likely not 922(r) compliant. SKS rifles and AKs mainly. It is something that is not enforced. That being said, don't go shooting your mouth off about that sort of stuff you have because they will then selectively enforce it on whoever they don't like.

YugoRPK wrote:

Reality time. Ive personally known two people go to federal jail on NFA charges. You hear about 10 years 10.000 fine per violation. Thats the maximum sentence. One guy got 2 years for one gun. The other got 8 years for over 40 NFA violations including explosives. What they both had in common was they were trying to sell them and EVERYONE knew what they had so the "buyers" ended up being undercover informants.

The same happens in the drug business, they only catch the stupid ones. You never hear about the smart ones.

The same can be said about why there are so few murders and so many missing persons in the midwest.

Diomed · **Posted:** Thu May 28, 2009 3:05 am

Crosshair wrote:

The same can be said about why there are so few murders and so many missing persons in the midwest.

Oooh, that sounds like a fun story. Care to elaborate?

Calibur6918 · **Joined:** Tue Mar 20, 2007 9:43 pm **Posts:** 61

what if you created a frame from a casting. then you can mount a conversion on it. it would have never been a pistol. correct me if im wrong.

YugoRPK · **Joined:** Wed Apr 02, 2008 3:56 am **Posts:** 5287

Calibur6918 wrote:

what if you created a frame from a casting. then you can mount a conversion on it. it would have never been a pistol. correct me if im wrong.

So whats the question? No, it wouldnt have been a pistol but that doesnt matter. You can turn a pistol into a rifle . You can do that with any pistol. You just can't ( according to the letter of the silly law ) make it a pistol again. You can pay $200 and make it a weapon made from a rifle AKA an SBR and then you can go back and forth but you'd REALLY have to into law obedience to do something like that.

Crosshair · **Posted:** Thu May 28, 2009 8:46 pm

Diomed wrote:

Crosshair wrote:

The same can be said about why there are so few murders and so many missing persons in the midwest.

Oooh, that sounds like a fun story. Care to elaborate?

I work in jails across 5 states. Just an observation on the number of missing persons posters I see vs the murder rate.

Diomed · **Posted:** Fri May 29, 2009 2:37 am

Calibur6918 wrote:

what if you created a frame from a casting. then you can mount a conversion on it. it would have never been a pistol. correct me if im wrong.

That's no different from bending an AK flat and building it into a rifle. The only difference is that there's no paper trail on the receiver. It doesn't get you out of the NFA.

In practice, Yugo is correct. No one's going to care unless you give them a reason to.

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Converting a Pistol to Rifle

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