runaway Toyota Prius == dumb drivers

Crosshair · Post by **Crosshair** » Tue Mar 09, 2010 8:05 pm

My guess:

1% Floor mats
1% Legitimate mechanical or software failure.
98% stupid drivers and/or attention whores.

This probably falls falls into the latter category.

LavaRed · Post by **LavaRed** » Tue Mar 09, 2010 10:05 pm

What about a dead man's switch that simply cuts power to the engine while leaving other functions intact?

I mean, if it's battery powered, surely there's a wire that feeds power to the engine? And if its an internal combustion engine, it still uses spark plugs that, once disabled, would shut it down without interfering other functions?

Twinsen · Post by **Twinsen** » Tue Mar 09, 2010 10:36 pm

Complete "by wire" brakes?! Horrifying. Somehow I didn't even think of that. They'd have to put motors everywhere. I can't recall ever seeing that done, but I haven't worked on any terrible, terrible, overcomplicated new cars. Terrible old cars, sure. But they can't even compete with the crappiness of this stuff.

LavaRed wrote:What about a dead man's switch that simply cuts power to the engine while leaving other functions intact?

I mean, if it's battery powered, surely there's a wire that feeds power to the engine? And if its an internal combustion engine, it still uses spark plugs that, once disabled, would shut it down without interfering other functions?

Absolutely. I was thinking a switch to the fuel pump would be easiest. You don't have to splice plug wires or even have to bother with worrying about heat or the firewall. Nobody buying one of these cars would do it, and Toyota won't allow a perfect or simple fix to be done. They will give the computers more RAM or faster processors in the future to hide it and fix one of 1,000 potential software issues (the best sounding one or maybe actually the scariest) and say they solved it. There is no way in hell they'd ever EVER come up with a simple or effective solution. Partially because doing so is admittance of screwing up and of the continued lack of quality of the over complicated mechanicals. But mostly because it would lower the perceived level of quality to the public. Pretty much any big car company would rather XXX people die than to put a dead man's switch into a production car in a manner that it is obviously a dead man's switch. They were ok with the key settings of "off-accessories-on-start" until just recently. Because giving people the power to turn the car off was just too much. They had to change that to a button so that you get a "when you get around to it, I'd like it if you would shut off" button.

BWT · Post by **BWT** » Wed Mar 10, 2010 8:46 am

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lZ4PtafRB9c

So I saw this over M4Carbine.net by a board member and I thought I'd share it.

That being said,

Priceless.

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=49183

gunham · Post by **gunham** » Wed Mar 10, 2010 10:37 am

If he did not cuss so much, I would have posted the link elsewhere.

JohnInNH · Post by **JohnInNH** » Wed Mar 10, 2010 10:51 am

YEA... BUT.... Will it shift into neutral if the SW glitches and holds the throttle wide open and you are over X MPH.

If it's all SW related who knows if it will shift into neutral.. Maybe it does.. maybe it does not. My PC will let me shut it off when it's running right... but when if starts to act funky it no longer responds... The Prius could be doing the same thing.

So his video is BS.

Post by **silencertalk** » Wed Mar 10, 2010 11:05 am

I actually feel bad for Toyota that the lawsuits are expected to cost them $3 billion.

People are suing because the resale value of their cars is lower. Give me a break. If you buy a gun, and later some people complain about it online that it is not as reliable as another brand, should you sue the gunmaker because the resale value of the gun is now lower?

Twinsen · Post by **Twinsen** » Wed Mar 10, 2010 11:28 am

You lose a lot less money in that case. But considering that Toyota has been going out of their way to make cars scarier and scarier, F--k them and their $3,000,000,000.

BWT · Post by **BWT** » Wed Mar 10, 2010 12:31 pm

JohnInNH wrote:YEA... BUT.... Will it shift into neutral if the SW glitches and holds the throttle wide open and you are over X MPH.

If it's all SW related who knows if it will shift into neutral.. Maybe it does.. maybe it does not. My PC will let me shut it off when it's running right... but when if starts to act funky it no longer responds... The Prius could be doing the same thing.

So his video is BS.

Hold the power button for 3 seconds, it will turn off, or pull out the battery, or pull out the plug.

Will. Same as the car, I thought the video was funny, that's all it really is, that and a rant. I didn't read too much into it, but really, if it's life or death, throw it in neutral. I mean, there's nothing else you can do, I mean if you're worried about the transmission, that sucks, but, I'd be more worried about losing control of the vehicle and dieing.

Just my opinion.

He also displayed shifting into neutral won't do anything to the transmission as far as damage, and turning it off won't cause anything to lock up.

silentobsession · Post by **silentobsession** » Wed Mar 10, 2010 1:39 pm

http://www.toyotasimulator.com

Requires volume to maximize entertainment level.

JohnInNH · Post by **JohnInNH** » Wed Mar 10, 2010 1:49 pm

Is the shifter "fly by wire"?

I got a few links of people replicating the issue.. One had the throttle and brakes do something weird... a WTF moment.

None of the u-tube vids replicate the problem None show a malfunctioning ECU and show if the shift lever is then deactivated.

One vid showed that the throttle is disabled when she hit the brakes. When she had it floored.. as soon as she let off the brakes the car JUMPED forward. The throttle went from deactivated to active instantly. Scared the crap out of her.

Obviously the brakes and throttle talk to each other... I do not know if the shifter is also involved in a system crash.

The driver in one case could not shift into neutral till the car was going slower... maybe after speed X the shifter will lock out neutral.

Lots of speculation and not a lot of first hand facts. To many unanswered questions.

Twinsen · Post by **Twinsen** » Thu Mar 11, 2010 4:44 pm

As far as I know all automatic shifters are just switches that look like shifters. I've never used one that did anything mechanically. I've shoved several of them in reverse while going highway speeds. They just click on up to that position and keep doing what they were doing.

delmccormick · Post by **delmccormick** » Sat Mar 13, 2010 5:26 pm

Didn't Mercedes do full brakes "by wire" and kill some people maybe 10 or so years ago? I think I remember reading that. If the car lost power, no computer, no brakes. They were working on steering by wire also, IIRC, as part of a safety/crash avoidance program, but went away from it after the deaths from the brakes. Now I am going to have to go find an article on it...

Twinsen · Post by **Twinsen** » Sat Mar 13, 2010 7:36 pm

Twinsen wrote:As far as I know all automatic shifters are just switches that look like shifters. I've never used one that did anything mechanically. I've shoved several of them in reverse while going highway speeds. They just click on up to that position and keep doing what they were doing.

Apparently old auto trannies had shifters that did something mechanical.

Crosshair · Post by **Crosshair** » Sat Mar 13, 2010 8:29 pm

Twinsen wrote:As far as I know all automatic shifters are just switches that look like shifters. I've never used one that did anything mechanically. I've shoved several of them in reverse while going highway speeds. They just click on up to that position and keep doing what they were doing.

No offense, but you don't know what you're talking about. Only recently have they become switches with no mechanical linkages. My 89 Escort had mechanical linkages. My 98 Contour has mechanical linkages.

They reason you can shove the car into reverse and not trash your transmission is because the auto designers designed the cars with idiots in mind and put interlocks in that prevent the gearbox from.

chrismartin · Post by **chrismartin** » Sat Mar 13, 2010 8:48 pm

As far as the San Deigo guy Sikes...

How many ways can you spell hoax?

http://www.forbes.com/2010/03/12/toyota ... mento.html

The biggest question is... Why hasn't the media questioned anything about this story? Every other time anything comes up it is "alleged" this and "alleged" that. In this case, everything he said he did was taken as fact and not questioned.

1. Can you reach your gas pedal with your hand? While driving?
2. If you are too scared to attempt to shift into neutral while driving would you ever attempt #1?
3. It is interesting that he filed for bankruptcy and one of the items is for his Toyota Prius lease.
4. The bumpers of the cop car and prius never touched, the prius slowed down on it's own.

If you read the article, the driver really comes off as a wuss of the first degree. The shifter (as pictured previously) is right next to the steering wheel, yet he was too scared to take his hand off the wheel, even though he was yapping on the phone with 911.

Libertarian_Geek · Post by **Libertarian_Geek** » Mon Mar 15, 2010 4:17 pm

I too feel bad for Toyota. They've really put the engineers on this problem, but it may not help.

Non-technical news reporters are smelling blood in the water... God help us.

I just watched at least 3 very well spoken engineers describe the problem with the misleading hatchet job that ABC did.

These engineers described how the accelerator has redundant sensors, signal, ground and power lines between the pedal and ECU (6 in total). They reproduced and accurately described Dr. Chris Gerdes rewired the throttle pedal in his test in order to get the results that he wanted to get. They also performed his "Test" on various other cars including: Chevy Malibu, Honda Accord, Mercedes, BMW, Ford. They showed the exact same results. They showed how this "scenario" required a 200 Ohm resistor (exactly 200 Ohms) between two signal wires (skipping over other conductors). They also explained how any other short or break in any of the wires, or impedance between the two specific wires it would put the car into "limp mode".

After a lengthy news conference, reporters just couldn't grasp the concept and asked questions like "but what if it happened in the real world, what would cause it?". UggghhH! "Is your system infallible?" The media doesn't understand how engineers think. This is just sad. I've got my own gripes with dealerships and tech support, but this is turning into the Spanish inquisition.

I swear, I think that I saw at least 5 reporters drinking Brawndo.

More info:

Toyota answered all of the questions that I had about the scenarios and throttle system.

http://pressroom.toyota.com/pr/tms/toyo ... ncid=11092

As someone else mentioned above, I'm thinking 1-2% floor mat the rest is bad drivers or publicity seekers.

YugoRPK · Post by **YugoRPK** » Mon Mar 15, 2010 4:27 pm

I still think this is a campaign waged by Government Motors to throw Toyota under the bus to boost domestic (GM ) car sales.

Libertarian_Geek · Post by **Libertarian_Geek** » Mon Mar 15, 2010 4:35 pm

YugoRPK wrote:I still think this is a campaign waged by Government Motors to throw Toyota under the bus to boost domestic (GM ) car sales.

When a buddy of mine first mentioned your theory, I told him to go find his tinfoil hat. I'm thinking of buying stock in Reynolds aluminum foil now.

YugoRPK · Post by **YugoRPK** » Mon Mar 15, 2010 5:21 pm

Libertarian_Geek wrote:
YugoRPK wrote:I still think this is a campaign waged by Government Motors to throw Toyota under the bus to boost domestic (GM ) car sales.
When a buddy of mine first mentioned your theory, I told him to go find his tinfoil hat. I'm thinking of buying stock in Reynolds aluminum foil now.

Its all too convenient, overblown and the alleged Toyota problems are almost 100% un-provable. It couldn't have been scripted better.

Schulze · Post by **Schulze** » Mon Mar 15, 2010 5:31 pm

Twinsen wrote: Toyota brakes would not be able to stop a car if it was trying to accelerate. They'd overheat immediately. Especially in a hybrid where they rely on the battery charge tech to slow down. I bet they saw that as an excuse to put even shittier brakes on the car..

Oh please. Car and Driver stopped a 260HP Toyota Camry at full throttle from 100 mph.

BWT · Post by **BWT** » Mon Mar 15, 2010 9:15 pm

YugoRPK wrote:I still think this is a campaign waged by Government Motors to throw Toyota under the bus to boost domestic (GM ) car sales.

http://www.automotive.com/new-cars/reca ... index.html

GMC's list of current recalls.

That's 6 2009 models and 1 2010 models.

I'm inclined to agree.

Where's the news now?

chrismartin · Post by **chrismartin** » Mon Mar 15, 2010 9:21 pm

Schulze wrote:
Twinsen wrote: Toyota brakes would not be able to stop a car if it was trying to accelerate. They'd overheat immediately. Especially in a hybrid where they rely on the battery charge tech to slow down. I bet they saw that as an excuse to put even shittier brakes on the car..
Oh please. Car and Driver stopped a 260HP Toyota Camry at full throttle from 100 mph.

It should also be noted that the Prius kills power to the wheels when the brake is depressed. So, even if you mash the gas down, hold it down, when you hit the brake, it cuts power to the wheels.

From the toyota link provided above:

All Prius vehicles have a brake system program that reduces gasoline engine power if both the throttle and brake pedals are depressed at the same time.

tuckerrnr1 · Post by **tuckerrnr1** » Sat Mar 20, 2010 8:46 am

http://toyotasimulator.com/

YugoRPK · Post by **YugoRPK** » Sat Mar 20, 2010 10:36 am

chrismartin wrote:
Schulze wrote:
Twinsen wrote: Toyota brakes would not be able to stop a car if it was trying to accelerate. They'd overheat immediately. Especially in a hybrid where they rely on the battery charge tech to slow down. I bet they saw that as an excuse to put even shittier brakes on the car..
Oh please. Car and Driver stopped a 260HP Toyota Camry at full throttle from 100 mph.
It should also be noted that the Prius kills power to the wheels when the brake is depressed. So, even if you mash the gas down, hold it down, when you hit the brake, it cuts power to the wheels.

From the toyota link provided above:

All Prius vehicles have a brake system program that reduces gasoline engine power if both the throttle and brake pedals are depressed at the same time.

Thats what its supposed to do if the computer isnt locked up. Computers don't always do what theyre supposed to.