My run-in with the law

[Zephyr]

Shouldn't we ask soccer_dad if he wants to do this first?

If you write a petition, I'll probably sign it after review.


Frank

[GlockandRoll]

Shouldn't we ask soccer_dad if he wants to do this first?

If you write a petition, I'll probably sign in after review.
Frank

Agreed... his permission withholding.

[P99guy]

The picture taking bit was odd, as many said showing the form 4 and IDing yourself should have been enough in most juresdictions, and circumstances.
I have been called in on before for shooting full auto weapons out at a friends farm where where it was ok to shoot.....it got to be so regular at first, we simply started calling the Sheriff's deptment dispatcher to let them know we would be out at the farm blasting away with the Ultimax MKIII, and the SAR21's. We were allways treated very well on the visits.
The S.O. would show up with 2-3 cars the first time and were cautious
till they knew what the deal was(justly so)...but we didnt give them any reason too be other than nice either.....the guns were made safe and put down and we had paperwork and ID's in hand when they came though the gate and down to where we were. The reason you carry paperwork with you (realistically)is not for the possibility of showing it to a highup in the ATF or IRS....its to have proof that these guns that most have never seen before in real life,are leagally possesed by you. If they are called they have to go investigate and that is reasonable. If one is going to be difficult about showing the ATF form
why even bother to carry a copy? No need to even have it right?
If you know a bondman and like urine smelling holding cells there is no reason to ever carry it. I think of it as nothing more than the reletionship of having a drivers license for the car you own.
And it never hurts to be nice, and educate the officer about our hobby
(I allways invite them to burn some ammo if they wish) and that goes a long way in that officers reaction to a NFA owner the next time. Being
a jail house lawyer and spouting case law, "P.O.ing the po-lice" and being
a rear end will make things more difficult for you , doesnt help the hobby or the next NFA owner one little bit.
By having that good reletionship with the deputies, and as a curtesy calling the dispatcher and letting them know we would be out at the farm,
they didnt even bother coming out anymore and yes we were called in on still...They would tell the callers...yes it is a machinegun you hear, and yes they can have them. and that would be the end of it. even gained a new friend or two from it. There is no downside to being a likeable person in this type of situation. And if something does go wrong
and you have reason to complain, wait and take it up with the brass and get your justice there as you wont win a urinating contest with a streetcop on the roadside..he has far more practice dealing with jackasses everyday than you do...and being a jackass himself if need be.

[GlockandRoll]

Good post!

I've got a question however, what happens if you carry, say for example, a supressed USP tactical concealed?

[cyclone72]

Good post!

I've got a question however, what happens if you carry, say for example, a supressed USP tactical concealed?

I know in FL you can't carry a suppressor with your gun for CWP purposes.

[Stupid Redneck]

I've seen a few references to folks keeping color copies of their Form 4s in this thread.

I didn't realize a black and white copy is unacceptable. Can somebody clue me in on this? I wasted a lot of time and money copying and laminating if black and white copies don't make the cut.

[GlockandRoll]

Yes, inquiring minds want to know.

[raymond-]

i dont think it matters much, color v b/w, since it's a copy. even if you
notorize it (as some have done) it means little. the notory simply signifies
that the copy you made is off of something that looks like an original. the
notory has no ability to verify the authenticity of the document which you're
showing them as the orignal. so, the notorized stamp not much more than
a feel good document.

i'd like to know the foundation to claim that the color reproduction is better in
some way than b/w. i've not come across this one before.

(oh, i just reread the thread and the issue was Kinko's staff rejected making
this print in color, citing illegality. i'll have to look into this.)

[WLCHARM]

Here is how I do copies of my Form 4's!!!!!!!

[bp_968]

Good post!

I've got a question however, what happens if you carry, say for example, a supressed USP tactical concealed?

I know in FL you can't carry a suppressor with your gun for CWP purposes.

I can carry a suppressed CCW weapon in Kentucky. Actually I could carry an MP5 or a M249SAW if I could somehow conceal it. <lol>

[Madsmiley]

I would not be angry that I was confronted, in fact I think that given general lack of understanding of federal law regarding NFA items among the public AND within the law enforcement community I would expect to be confronted. I would simply disagree for my photograph and tax record to be made part of a field report.

Since I am waiting on my 1st suppressor to come in, I am more interested in preparing my response for when I get questioned. I hunt regularly in South Texas and intend to use my suppressor when hunting hogs. It is not uncommon for game wardens to come onto our property and they will almost surely have an initially negative reaction to me hunting non-game animals with a suppressor (in Texas you can't hunt "Game Animals" with a machine gun or suppressor, but non-game animals are OK). I am prepared to cite the specific regulation that permits me to hunt certain animals legally in Texas with my suppressor and would certainly expect to produce my Form 4 on request.

I think the general lack of knowledge of federal and state laws by most law enforecement is just a byproduct of there being relatively few NFA items in use by the general public. Part of the fun in having NFA items is that very few people have them and when people see them they are either naturally interested or frightened.

Do yourself a favor and give the local game warden a courtsey call before hunting with a supressor..Even though shooting hogs with them is leagal,if he walks up on you and finds a supressor, hes going to naturally assume its being used for deer.This is especiaaly true if you plan on spotlighting them at night..

[cyclone72]

Good post!

I've got a question however, what happens if you carry, say for example, a supressed USP tactical concealed?

I know in FL you can't carry a suppressor with your gun for CWP purposes.

I can carry a suppressed CCW weapon in Kentucky. Actually I could carry an MP5 or a M249SAW if I could somehow conceal it. <lol>

we cant do that either,Florida sucks with CWP's

[ArevaloSOCOM]

Took my SWR Warlock out yeasterday, 500 rounds later i'm still in love.


anway...........bunch of Fudds I educated on it's legailty loved it.

and the DNR guy that showed up thought it was cool too.

He and the fudds thought that "silencers were illegal".

I edcuadted them and didn't have to show a form 4 to do it.....................b/c I don't take my Form 4.

[Zephyr]

Took my SWR Warlock out yeasterday, 500 rounds later i'm still in love.


anway...........bunch of Fudds I educated on it's legailty loved it.

and the DNR guy that showed up thought it was cool too.

He and the fudds thought that "silencers were illegal".

I edcuadted them and didn't have to show a form 4 to do it.....................b/c I don't take my Form 4.

Good job, Arevalo! Maybe the people you helped educate will end up on this forum.

All you have to do now is do something about that profile pic LOL


Frank

[ArevaloSOCOM]

I'll take a picture of my Avatar with me and show it as proof of ownership if ever asked.........

Then they will really think I'm nuts.

[GHEN]

First of all what happened sucks plain & simple.

But before we go crucifying "Barney Fife" let me say a few things from a cop perspective:

1) It is not harrasment if the officer is responding to a call from a member of the public about a questionable person/practice etc. I know that suppressors are legal but the fact that they are a highly controlled item gives enough reason for the police to respond to such a call. Plus if the PD blew off the call you never know who is going to call in and complain/monday morning quarterback (happens a lot in policing).

2) The responding officer was reportedly polite, and only took a report because of policy, not because he felt there was any wrongdoing. These shortsighted policies tie up valuable police time and tend to piss off the poor guy who did nothing wrong, but he would get called on the carpet if he didn't follow policy and after all this is his job, this is how he feeds his family. I can almost assure you the poor patrol officer didn't make the policy (and doesn't want to take the BS report anyway) but how many of you don't follow the rules at your work?

3) Lets remember that "Barney Fife" is in fact the guy that gets called when things go wrong, and he has to run TOWARD trouble when everyone else around hin gets to run AWAY. I think he is warranted a little respect (plus he wasn't a dick).

4) The true "bad guy" here is the ass hat who called the PD in the 1st place, I hope he catches something itchy.

%) To show that I am not 1 sided, you have a nice civil case against the department for violating your 5th Amendment rights of illegal search & seizure by capturing an image of your tax form without a warrant, or your permission. Also PDs are supposed to redact personal identifying info (ie SSN) from copies of reports given to the public. I would talk to a lawyer about filing suit and as part of your damages ask for legal fees...or write a well thought out letter to the cities attorney explaining the situation and threaten to file suit unless all copies of your tax form are returned to you, and your personal information is redacted from any copies given to the public. I am certain the response will be favorable.

Again guys I know some cops can be absolute jackasses but most of us are just trying to get the job done and catch bad guys; from this report this cop seemed OK, probably kind of new and his supervisor wasn't much better.

[smallchange]

Do yourself a favor and give the local game warden a courtsey call before hunting with a supressor..Even though shooting hogs with them is leagal,if he walks up on you and finds a supressor, hes going to naturally assume its being used for deer.This is especiaaly true if you plan on spotlighting them at night..

I've never understood this mindset. I've hunted hogs at night with a silencer many times, and have yet to call the game warden (or be bothered by them). IMO, doing so is just asking for a visit, and subsequent disruption to my hunt.

I've spotlighted dozens of deer during my hog hunts and just watched them pass by. How can a game warden assume I'm hunting deer unless I actually shoot at one, or have a deer carcass in my possession?

[ArevaloSOCOM]

Do yourself a favor and give the local game warden a courtsey call before hunting with a supressor..Even though shooting hogs with them is leagal,if he walks up on you and finds a supressor, hes going to naturally assume its being used for deer.This is especiaaly true if you plan on spotlighting them at night..

I've never understood this mindset. I've hunted hogs at night with a silencer many times, and have yet to call the game warden (or be bothered by them). IMO, doing so is just asking for a visit, and subsequent disruption to my hunt.

I've spotlighted dozens of deer during my hog hunts and just watched them pass by. How can a game warden assume I'm hunting deer unless I actually shoot at one, or have a deer carcass in my possession?

I think it's b/c many in the NFA world tend to side on the side of caution way to much..........

It's almost a parnoia........

They don't have any facts or laws to back up such wild claims......

[3 weelin geezer]

I've never understood this mindset. I've hunted hogs at night with a silencer many times, and have yet to call the game warden (or be bothered by them). IMO, doing so is just asking for a visit, and subsequent disruption to my hunt.

I've spotlighted dozens of deer during my hog hunts and just watched them pass by. How can a game warden assume I'm hunting deer unless I actually shoot at one, or have a deer carcass in my possession?

Well, you know what they say about the law...You aren't guilty unless you get caught and if he sees you at night (when crooks USUALLY work) he figgers you are up to no good. Its real easy to spot a light in the dark which brings em in like moths to the porchlight.

[Tactical Joe]

Here is how I do copies of my Form 4's!!!!!!!

If I were you I would make an extra copy so to put away in my car's compartment. Because you never know what will happen when you get pull over and some cops decide to search your car and you happen to have one with you that you forget to bring the copies of the Form 4's. Just to be on the safe side!!!!

[raymond-]

though i understand the caution, i question whether having that safety net is
really a good plan. my car is more likely to be stolen than my forgetting the
forms. in addition, the forms are simply shrunken copies and assuage only
the mildly curious of LEOs. I dont think I want some car thief to know that
much info.

[sofltodd]

I keep a gmail.com email account for only NFA stuff

I scan in and email a copy (both sides) of my forms to my gmail account in the event of an emergency. If I ever find myself without a form or in dire need to prove I'm not a bad guy I simply login to the gmail account and print them out. Since it is ony NFA stuff in that account if I had to I could give the login info to an officer or dispatcher who could login and check the forms him/her self as well.

[zach h]

Do yourself a favor and give the local game warden a courtsey call before hunting with a supressor..Even though shooting hogs with them is leagal,if he walks up on you and finds a supressor, hes going to naturally assume its being used for deer.This is especiaaly true if you plan on spotlighting them at night..

I've never understood this mindset. I've hunted hogs at night with a silencer many times, and have yet to call the game warden (or be bothered by them). IMO, doing so is just asking for a visit, and subsequent disruption to my hunt.

I've spotlighted dozens of deer during my hog hunts and just watched them pass by. How can a game warden assume I'm hunting deer unless I actually shoot at one, or have a deer carcass in my possession?

in Tn shining a light on deer is spotlighting. shooting one is poaching. no gun but still shine is harrasment of wildlife. we've hunted cyotiees at night and we call the game warden just to let them know.

kinda like calling up the local sherrifs office before 10 guys with MG's go shooting at a local farm . calls that do come in get a polite " its legal ,we know who it is ,thanks for the call".

[Johnson]

While the thread begins with a poor experience from one of our members, it is very helpful to educate the rest of us.

Where I am from officers are just as anal, but holding a firm grasp of the relevant law and your rights while discussing any event in a polite and professional manner goes a very very long way.
If the PO called out wants to be an ass, a trip back to the station to speak with the superior officers (your instigation) normally ends the confrontation as no one ever wants their boss to know they are screwing up royally not when it will end in formal complaint.

Thanks Soccer Dad, it sucks that it happened but I am sure we are all richer for the discussion surrounding it.

[tiggy]

Truth is most LE's don't know ALL the laws regarding firearms in Massachusetts. The last amendment to MGL (Massachusetts General Law) regarding guns was HUGE. Like all laws they are always changing. There are lawyers out there that specialize in that field and they can't know it all and do not know it all. The trick is to be as educated as possible and to be using your equipment legally. Stay calm, be polite and educated. Do not give the Officer an opportunity to make a case that gives shooters a bad image. I do not know what the constitutional take on picture taking is in FLA. But in Ma. your good to go, anyone can be photographed in public. You can also be photographed in your home as long as the photographer is on public land (not trespassing). This is not true of video taping; the sound on a video tape violates the wiretap statute. (5 year felony) Remember that the guy (officer) coming to the range is usually called there, and he is just doing his job. He would also be coming to your house if your baby was choking or if someone was breaking into your home. Think about it, most cops are in your business, but isn’t that their jobs?