Suppressor questions from a match director

[jameydan]

Hello,
First off, if I have posted these questions in the wrong forum please advise me of where I should head to.

I have been running the high power matches in Missoula, MT for a little over a year. Missoula has a 1000yd range that hosts National Match type NRA and CMP matches and Long Range matches, including Palma format and 1000yds. Last Sept 24-26, we held a NRA long Range Regional and attracted 43 shooters. I hope to drum up a few more for next year. In an effort to be more inclusive of other shooters, I am looking to add a tactical rifle division into the mix. The basic premise is to have a division that is for rifles along the lines of the M24/M40 series, and separate it from the F-TR division where the bipods are not folding, barrels are in excess of 28-30", etc. Basically, the intent is to have a "practical" rifle division, using rifles much like you see at tactical matches.

There are a number of shooters that have Cans and would like to use them in the matches. I am of the opinion: "if they want to use them great!" I love shooting next to them on the firing line! However, the NRA rules specifically ban the use of suppressors. I have seen them used in NRA matches, but I do not know if the match directors turned a blind eye, or they did not report their scores to the NRA. I can make a separate, unrecognized class where the suppressor users compete against themselves.

I also see where I could structure the division so that you could use a Can if you have one, and compete with those that do not. Now, my question(s): Does using a suppressor provide advantages over the unsuppressed shooters? (consider all other variables the same, and the rifles are .35 cal or less, and the shooter is capable of firing 80 rounds a day)

Is recoil reduced compared to a similar unsuppressed rifle, without a muzzle brake?

Is recoil less than a rifle with a muzzle brake? (a lot of different brakes out there, I know)

Is a suppressed rifle more accurate than unsuppressed?

I realize the questions will require some generalizations. I am trying to decide whether to allow Cans, and if they can fairly share a division with other rifles that are not suppressed.

Thanks for your time,

[CKOD]

Is recoil reduced compared to a similar unsuppressed rifle, without a muzzle brake?

Yes, definitely, it catches and slows the gasses exiting, so any rifle where the powder charge is significant compared to the projectile mass, it will make a difference. Its definitely noticeable on my 5.56 AR when I add and remove the suppressor, but not so much on my 300 fireball (55 grain bullet with 20 some grains of powder, vs 200 grain bullet with 16-20 grains of powder)

Is recoil less than a rifle with a muzzle brake? (a lot of different brakes out there, I know)

Depends on the brake. A can should be on par with one which stops the gasses and sends them sideways. A Barrett style brake where it sends the gasses backwards could be more effective than a can

Is a suppressed rifle more accurate than unsuppressed?

Again, depends, Ive heard of some people claiming a 1/4-1/2 MOA improvment, but I wouldnt expect a 1/2MOA improvement on an already sub moa rifle.

[MAJ MALFUNCTION]

CKOD pretty much nailed it.

The only thing I'd add is on the accuracy piece - generally speaking a can SHOULD tighten up groups. But you never know how everthing is going to perform together as a system until you mount the suppressor on the weapon and go shoot (its performance is dependant on so many variables and how well they will work together - i.e.: barrel harmonics, weight added to the end of the barrel, etc.).

Bryon

[Bandit]

Hello,

Is recoil reduced compared to a similar unsuppressed rifle, without a muzzle brake?

Is recoil less than a rifle with a muzzle brake? (a lot of different brakes out there, I know)

Is a suppressed rifle more accurate than unsuppressed?

Thanks for your time,

First off, I shoot highpower matches in the master class and have been for 20+ years.
We were never allowed to shoot with cans.
Seperate "silencer only" matches would be great but, after 10 years of asking for it we never got it.

Recoil is less with a can attached in every case I have fired rifles using them.
If you want better accuracy using a silencer on a rifle, get a direct thread on silencer, as the quick detach systems have more parts that mate together.

[jameydan]

Major and CKOD,

Thank you for your informed responses. It helps me guide what I may allow at the matches.

Bandit: Thanks for your response. I doubt there would be enough entrants to have a suppressed only match, but there are a handful of shooters expressing to me a desire to shoot with them in matches. We make the match program state there needs to be 3-5 shooters in a class, in-order to make awards for that class. I can have them compete amongst themselves if there is enough, and not send their scores into the NRA. The couple extra dollars that are saved from the NRA match fees would just go to the club for supplies, etc.

Besides the NRA issues, it seems the use of a suppressor gives multiple advantages and they should be grouped together and not with other unsuppressed shooters- for fairness.

Maybe with Trey Tuggle running the tactical aspect of high power at the NRA, we might see a change down the road. For the last few years they have allowed the use of optics in accross the course matches (not just F-class LR). So, change can happen.

Thanks everyone.

[Conqueror]

My guess is that it's a PR question for NRA, and they don't want pictures of a bunch of competitors with silencers making it into the local rag. The benefits of a silencer on an already-accurate rifle are minimal compared to the same rifle with a muzzle brake. NRA sells out the NFA crowd on a regular basis.

[Davo5o]

I'm a life member of the NRA, but F--k THEM!

They threw us under the bus in 1986 and I will forever hold that against them.

I'm a long range rifle competitor and shot the ITRC last year for the first time.

I also shoot the long range matches up in Patomic, MT. Suppressors are more than welcome up there. Especially considering Dale the owner of Elite Iron is local and almost always in attendance.

Anything you can do to get more people interested and competing in long range shooting the better.

Shooting with a suppressor is much SAFER than shooting without. If the NRA was interested in actually making shooting sports safer instead of PC, then they would launch a huge national campaign to normalize suppressor use, but instead they sit on their thumbs and spin.

There is absolutely no reason to keep people from practicing and training with the tools they own and use. To do so is absolutely unAmerican. Once the suppressor shooters start destroying the score card then the non can owners will wise up and get on board.

If you decide to allow suppressor use I'll be there.

[Wicked]

I'm not holding my breath for the NRA or the CMP to warm up to anything involving NFA. No need to wait around for permission from the NRA though. Shooters in many places are already involved in organized 'tactical' precision rifle matches. They are: (1.) shooting at ranges of up to 1600+ yds, (2.) shooting at steel, and (2.) shooting with suppressors. Check out the organized shoots at Sniper's Hide http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthr ... =28&page=1

Until you get official word, could you have the suppressor shooters compete against each other in the Directors Match? Score won't officially count, but who cares? I've done it in High Power matches with non-regulation rifles just for kicks.

Camp Perry hosts a "Pop-Up" target rifle and pistol shoot twice each year. Last time I shot the rifle targets with a 11.5" SBR. But, I really don't think anyone noticed. I might take a can next time, just to see what they say.

[jameydan]

I'm not holding my breath for the NRA or the CMP to warm up to anything involving NFA. No need to wait around for permission from the NRA though. Shooters in many places are already involved in organized 'tactical' precision rifle matches. They are: (1.) shooting at ranges of up to 1600+ yds, (2.) shooting at steel, and (2.) shooting with suppressors. Check out the organized shoots at Sniper's Hide http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthr ... =28&page=1

Until you get official word, could you have the suppressor shooters compete against each other in the Directors Match? Score won't officially count, but who cares? I've done it in High Power matches with non-regulation rifles just for kicks.

Camp Perry hosts a "Pop-Up" target rifle and pistol shoot twice each year. Last time I shot the rifle targets with a 11.5" SBR. But, I really don't think anyone noticed. I might take a can next time, just to see what they say.

Wicked,
That is pretty much what I am going to do, is have a separate division for suppressed rifles. They will compete side-by-side with the other shooters at our LR matches. No, I am not holding my breath for the NRA to do anything, but they are making some gradual shifts. I just want to be inclusive and provide another venue for those wanting to shoot.



Davo5o - I sent you a PM.


Thanks again for all the responses.

[Wicked]

It's great that you are being proactive and want to include something 'outside the box' in your matches. I anticipate you will have lots more interest at those matches once things get started and the word gets out. Good luck.

[jack burton]

I planned on shooting a few 600 yard matches next year. I really don't care about official scoring. I'm really shooting against myself and trying to improve my skills. Jameydan, if I show up to an F-class(I think that's the name), with a silencer-do you think they'll let me shoot it just for fun?

[jameydan]

I planned on shooting a few 600 yard matches next year. I really don't care about official scoring. I'm really shooting against myself and trying to improve my skills. Jameydan, if I show up to an F-class(I think that's the name), with a silencer-do you think they'll let me shoot it just for fun?

Jack,

If you contacted me to shoot in one of the matches I hold in Missoula, MT - I would be glad to have you shoot. I bet the other match directors in this state would not care either (I know most of them). Since you are in Missouri, I would contact the match director at the ranges you would like to shoot at and tell him what you said above. Ask him if you can fire "out of competition".

And, F-Class is what you want. I shoot a M14 for LR and the basic difference is that I use iron sights and a sling. F-Class is scoped and with a bipod or rests. The F-Class target has smaller inner scoring rings. The X-ring is 1/2 min, and the 10 ring is 1 min.

What a few of us are trying to do, is put together a class where you can bring your Tactical/duty rifle out and shoot at our LR matches. Use a silencer, if you want, and have fun.

Link to some news about this Sept's matches: http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/201 ... eek-range/

[jack burton]

Thank you for your assistance. I think I'll do that.

[Schulze]

Is recoil less than a rifle with a muzzle brake? (a lot of different brakes out there, I know)

No. A good muzzle brake (i.e., not a Battlecomp.) is far superior in recoil reduction than a can.

And I'll say that a suppressed gun has inferior shooting characteristics to a braked gun in any competition.

[continuity]

...No. A good muzzle brake (i.e., not a Battlecomp.) is far superior in recoil reduction than a can.

And I'll say that a suppressed gun has inferior shooting characteristics to a braked gun in any competition.

Do you smoke pot all the time or just while you're posting?

[Schulze]

...No. A good muzzle brake (i.e., not a Battlecomp.) is far superior in recoil reduction than a can.

And I'll say that a suppressed gun has inferior shooting characteristics to a braked gun in any competition.

Do you smoke pot all the time or just while you're posting?

If you think what I have posted is wrong, you simply lack shooting experience.

[robpiat]

...No. A good muzzle brake (i.e., not a Battlecomp.) is far superior in recoil reduction than a can.

And I'll say that a suppressed gun has inferior shooting characteristics to a braked gun in any competition.

Do you smoke pot all the time or just while you're posting?

If you think what I have posted is wrong, you simply lack shooting experience.

....But he read it on the internet!!!

I find most people on these forums that have a strong opinion have not tried the alternative.

[continuity]

...No. A good muzzle brake (i.e., not a Battlecomp.) is far superior in recoil reduction than a can.

And I'll say that a suppressed gun has inferior shooting characteristics to a braked gun in any competition.

Do you smoke pot all the time or just while you're posting?

If you think what I have posted is wrong, you simply lack shooting experience.

Fair enough....

In my experience, limited though it may be relative to others, compensator's can tend to reduce recoil by redirecting the muzzle gasses. This provides other dynamics like slew or chop associated with the blast redirection that, in my experience, requires practice with that specific setup to be able to control the muzzle.

With a muzzle brake attached on a MAC10, the recoil and associated muzzle flip/movement is less harsh than without one. With a suppressor attached, the system becomes much more aimable/ controllable. While a Smiths compensator on a M1A helped with the recoil/muzzle flip, a suppressor reduced the recoil dramatically. On my .308 bolt action, adding the suppressor reduced the recoil significantly, over a bare muzzle. (To be fair, I've never had a brake on it.). I'm sure the added weight of a suppressor helps by adding inertial resistance.

Since suppressors more capture the blast gasses, and allow them to expand prior to release reducing the energy of the final system exit, it seems the answer is somewhere in how the muzzle blast energy is addressed. If it's mitigated by contained expansion, a firearm recoil more follows the equal and opposite physics laws of force. Much more than when the muzzle blast is simply redirected.

I'll stand by my experience and call your statement, at the least, an exaggeration.

[Schulze]

A good brake is superior. If you think "far superior" is an exaggeration, I will modify it to be simply "superior". A can falls in between a naked muzzle and a good brake. Not only does a good brake design give the best shooting characteristics, but on a crowded line it can perform the role of noise terrorism toward the opponent sitting next to you.

I see that you are bringing up a Mac 10. Go back read the original question and you'll see it was a direct question about RIFLES. Now read my response with the new knowledge that it is talking about rifles.

[continuity]

A good brake is superior. If you think "far superior" is an exaggeration, I will modify it to be simply "superior". A can falls in between a naked muzzle and a good brake. Not only does a good brake design give the best shooting characteristics, but on a crowded line it can perform the role of noise terrorism toward the opponent sitting next to you.

I see that you are bringing up a Mac 10. Go back read the original question and you'll see it was a direct question about RIFLES. Now read my response with the new knowledge that it is talking about rifles.

Whatever. The obvious escaped understanding was to include a range of weapon experience relative the subject. You seem to be experienced, would you mind sharing with what system(s)? How do you get to your conclusion? Airsoft stuff doesn't count, nor do capguns or supersoakers.

Help me understand that you aren't either a prepubescent teen troll that has retarded comprehension skills, or just plain ignorant and enjoy acting stupidly (noise terrorism).