Prodigy Keyholing Thread

[JohnInNH]

Can we please post info on the Prodigy Keyholing just in one place.

I have an early old AAC Prodigy that was re-cored the first week the new cores were available (thanks MIKE!!)

I get key-holing but it is mostly limited to the FRP shot. This is on my High Standard & P-22.

If I tape the muzzle end after the FRP shot the hole in the tape is centered perfectly... EVERY TIME on my High Standard. (my CZ is *slightly* off center but does not key-hole and is not baffle strike territory)

The FRP shots show on the tape as a slightly oblong hole sometimes.

At 20 feet I got a full sideways bullet strike with a FRP shot. (open the core and re-close to make it go BANG!)

I have to wear ear protection as the FRP is so loud in mine it rings my ears it is SERIOUSLY loud inside. This makes me think that may be the cause.

Maybe AAC should look at THAT as the cause... Turbulence caused by the FRP?

Most of my shots after the FRP are nice round holes in my cardboard test sheets. But FRP shots are a crap shoot. Some keyhole others are OK or slightly off round. I may test 20 or so shots and figure the %

To those who are having the accuracy and Key-holing issue PLEASE try this and see if you are ALSO getting key-holing more so with FRP shots.


Note: rifle so far seems to be OK ... note FRP is almost nothing with subs on my 16" CZ.

Let's try to collect some objective non-emotional data. Let's try to help AAC by collecting some data.

Thanks.

[chrismartin]

Have you tried shooting it wet to remove the FRP and see if it keyholes?
I would think a squirt of gel or a bit of greese/clp/water/whatever may reduce the frp enough to prove your theory.

[NoHair]

Copy and paste below.

It would be nice to at least get a response from AAC here on this subject -at least on mine -be it "We are working on it", "We know and are still looking into it", "We don't care about the .22 stuff as we have too much stuff going on right now", or "Quit bitching on the internet as it does no good but make you look like a bunch of whiners"

Do, I need to call and leave more messages?

So, I bought an Aviator, it was approved -early 2009 I think- and I let my 7yr old son shoot it around the house most of the time and hadn't noticed a problem -I thought he was a worse shot than he is . . October 2009 - Once I finally joined a range and put it on paper I found it was hitting the paper sideways and low with both P22s and my Ruger 22/45 with a Tac upper. So , I stopped by Tornado Tech. and had Mike look at it, he said to send it back to AAC and to tell Mike Mers it was a mount issue. Sure enough, Mr. Mers called me to inform me it was a issue with the can and that I could upgrade to a Prodigy, Element or keep another Aviator. I opted to go with the Prodigy since I had bought 3 QD mounts, P22, Sig Mosquito and a 1/2x28 adapter.
Waited for the Form 3 to my dealer.
Of course, the Sheriff decided to stop signing for a few months and it was finally approved in October 2010. I promptly took it to the range the first day -October 27th 2010-I had it and found this.
Shot at 21ft. quick, and the more I shot the more pissed off I got.

Top left is a Ruger 22/45, no can, top right W/ Prodigy - 2 out of 10 hit sideways, Bottom left W/ SWR Spectre, bottom right W/TAC65.

Top left is P22#1 with an AAC QD Adapter and no can, top right W Prodigy - 8 out of 10 hit sideways, bottom left W/ SWR Spectre, bottom right W/ TAC65.

Top left is P22#2 with a GemTech adapter and no can, top right W Prodigy - 6 out of 10 hit sideways, bottom left W/ SWR Spectre, bottom right W/ TAC65.


I contacted Mr. Mers again and he said that they had a fix for this in 4-6 weeks and to call back to get it swapped out.
I have called and left 2 messages with no return calls.
So for those who think they have waited a bit to get theirs fixed, I give you mine, both cans worth, and still I cant shoot an AAC .22 can on my pistols going on better than 2 years.

NoHair

[JohnInNH]

Have you tried shooting it wet to remove the FRP and see if it keyholes?
I would think a squirt of gel or a bit of greese/clp/water/whatever may reduce the frp enough to prove your theory.

I will try that tomorrow.. I ran out of time today as I was to meet up with Trey_Phish to go to the Gun Show and after shoot our machineguns.

It was 40 mph winds and 18 so we did not spend much time outside shooting but managed to rip off a few mags.. I really LOVE my Cyclone-K on my 16" upper full auto. Sweet..

Dave in his wheel chair ripped a nice burst and blasted the target in 1/2 Excellent control. His M11 was a hoot.

I will use my nose spray bottle trick and see if I get keyholing with the first shot but with H2O mist in the baffles.

More to follow. Lets be OBJECTIVE and collect good date to use/give to AAC. It may or may not help them. I woudl rather work WITH them than just bitch.

Barrel length may have something to do with it as well. I will try my P-22, the shortest then use the 4" then the 5" Then I have two 16" barrels I can use a well. Unfortunately, I have nothing between 5" and 16" Maybe some of you other Prodigy owners have something in that range to test.

[JohnInNH]

Pistol Key-holing samples.

All pistols tape tested and are not getting end cap or baffle strikes Threading is good and concentric:

TacSol 1911 .22 Conversion.. 25% keyholed with an additional off round hit.


P-22 with AAC fast attach adapter This has 50% keyholed at 20' full sideways impact.


Sig .22 Conversion also had a oblong partial keyhole impact .. Best of the 4 4 shot test groups.


High Standard with 4" barrel .. this has 2 keyholed


The P-22 has the shortest barrel, the High Standard is next at 4" The Sig Has a 4.5" but the thread adapter extends it to about 5". The TacSol 1911 conversion kit has a 5" barrel.

The "Bad" shots were the first and second shots. Apparently barrel length seems to be the significant factor causing more FRP with the shorter barrels..

The POI shift is BAD on the P-22 with the shots WAY off to the lower right.

Rifle targets:

My 16" barrels have NO key-holing CZ Bolt & 10/11 with TacSol 16" threaded barrel.


Hopefully AAC will make a comment on this post.

It is a nice can on a rifle but it is not working on my pistols. This was at ONLY 20' .. How about an Element exchange program? At least that shoots straight. It may not be a mono core but it got to be better than this.

AAC will you FIX this or are we stuck?

[NoHair]

So, my daughter wants to snuff the raccoon that keep bothering our dog, I wonder if hitting it with the P22 and Prodigy will have a better effect - bullet hitting it sideways - than just putting a .22 hole in it?
Maybe it was designed like that for stopping power without over penetration.

My boy with the Raccoon slayer setup, 90 rds of quietness in the dark.



NoHair

[smcharchan]

I noticed that the Prodigy 1.2 is listed as having a 2011 update here: http://www.aacblog.com/?p=9012

[trey_phish83]

fun indeed.

what that weaver a 30mm or a 1 inch tube?

can't say i didn't leave smiling.

[JasonAAC]

In the interest of responding in the thread, i wish I had more info, but yes, we are aware of this on some cans on some guns. and, yes, we have been working on a remedy. That's all I have right now, I'll see if I can find out more.

[JasonAAC]

I noticed that the Prodigy 1.2 is listed as having a 2011 update here: http://www.aacblog.com/?p=9012

The noted update was simply an inline change during last year that included new tubes with machining that matched the current core's.

[JohnInNH]

In the interest of responding in the thread, i wish I had more info, but yes, we are aware of this on some cans on some guns. and, yes, we have been working on a remedy. That's all I have right now, I'll see if I can find out more.

Jason,

Thanks for the reply. But "Some cans on some guns" may really be "all cans on most/all short barreled guns"

I really believe it is an inherent design characteristic. See below.. and I concur.

Short barrels have SEVERE FRP and also the worst stability problems. A great rifle can but unusable on my pistols. I chose the Prodigy because it had good dB performance on both rifle and pistols but if on the pistols it keyholes what good it it? I have tried everything and can't make it work. I have spent hours screwing around with this silencer. It is not my hosts. They shoot fine with other .22 silencers.

I like it on my CZ but the tight bore causes a lot of blowback making my 10/22 jam. So it's now only a one host silencer for me.

Add me to the list of people to contact when you get a resolution (maybe I will call Mike and make it official) Or if you have some sort of trade in program for the element.

I do appreciate the efforts you have gone through with the new core and the efforts to correct the higher than advertised dB but unfortunately the new core has other different problems as a result. (FRP, blowback, instability on short pistol barrels) I will continue working with you to help figure out the problems.. Hopefully you can come up with either a fix or an exchange program of some sorts.

I will see if sandblasting it and bringing it back to squeaky clean will hep to reduce the keyholing. I don't have one but I will try to borrow one. Jason, any other things you may want me to test?

---------------------------
"The blast baffle is a tight .25" aperture. Leading of any significant quantity could result in closing it to the point of bullet contact. (My blast baffle does have some leading but is not causing a strike/contact as I brush the bore passage to insure it remains fully open and is not an issue on all shots or on rifles)

The blast chamber is a tiny .466"x~.7" approximately so it could even be that blast is so intense inside the tiny chamber that it destabilizes the bullet. If that's the case, you'd have to see how short the barrel could get before you started to see keyholing.

The other thing going on is the front side of the blast baffle is aggressively asymmetric to get gas flowing sideways, and there again, with short barrels the flow of gas asymmetric to the bullet will act to destabilize flight. Opening the blast baffle aperture will probably reduce that, but will also reduce performance. In fact the gas moving through the hole in the baffle and across the first slant baffle, combined with this asymmetry would probably promote instability. Gas on one end is tipping the front of the projectile opposite the direction gas is pushing the base on the other end. A picture to give you an idea of what I'm talking about.


http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/1133/p ... erandp.jpg


The problem is that every attempt to promote stability will rob performance from the unit. All the asymmetric functions supporting high performance sound reduction are also probably supporting bullet instability." ("Green0" quote)

[JasonAAC]

Jason,
Thanks for the reply. But "Some cans on some guns" may really be "all cans on most/all short barreled guns"

First, I am not arguing with you, but certainly not all, or most. I am not engineering of course, so i can't comment on the tech aspects. But i can say I don't see high FRP or keyholing on any of my hosts.

That all said, I know the folks smarter than me are working on this and there will be resolution. Thanks for the input John!

[JohnInNH]

Jason,
Thanks for the reply. But "Some cans on some guns" may really be "all cans on most/all short barreled guns"

First, I am not arguing with you, but certainly not all, or most. I am not engineering of course, so i can't comment on the tech aspects. But i can say I don't see high FRP or keyholing on any of my hosts.

That all said, I know the folks smarter than me are working on this and there will be resolution. Thanks for the input John!

Jason thanks..

I was sorta in the dark .. I have not been really happy with the Prodigy on my pistols and have honestly reduced shooting it on my pistols because of how fast it leads up (PITA to clean the blast baffle I believe the only way it to sand blast it and I don't have one) Plus it mungs up my semi autos and caused malfunctioning after a few mags.. SOOOOOO I mostly only shoot it on my Bolt rifle..

It was not till I saw the 2 posts of the key holing did I set up a scientific test to see what was up. I spent a few hrs with ALL my hosts tape testing each to see if the cans were concentric. Some were dead on others were a slight bit off My CZ for example is the most off but is the most accurate so it's not a problem. I then tested for bullet impact at 20' Low and behold I found the result I posted. It looks like 5.5" or 6" is where the problem may start to go away. But 4" and under it is a problem. It is more of a problem with FRP shots and the following shot.. Once the O2 is purged it is less and may not be noticeable.

I honestly believe if even you tested yours in your short barreled hosts you too will see the problem. What people may think is the P-22 is really the Prodigy causing the larger groups and keyholing. (mine is an AAC fast attach adapter and tested concentric) It is fairly accurate but is keyholing a LOT.

Maybe you can keep your blast baffle cleaner since you have access to bead blasters and folks like me don't.

Like Hep C the medical community does not know the # or % of people that got it and cleared it and are immune to it.. BECAUSE they have not tested all the people.. Same here.. Until or unless you test all the Prodigies you don't know what is going on. So far 3 of us have sat down and tested for it and we all discovered it. How many here have sat down and seriously tested all their pistol hosts for keyholing? My bet not many at all .. as more test the more will see the problem. since it might only be the first 2 shots in a string people have not noticed or written it off as something else. (like the paper ripping funny or what ever.)

I have also not tested more than 2 types of ammo so far.. WHY .. If Winchester Dyna point and CCI do it probably most will follow suit. Regardless if the ammo that does not go super sonic does it and ammo that is super sonic does not I don't want to be limited to super sonic ammo.

I really think MORE people need to test and post here for you. AAC could also do some more testing.. New + used leaded up a bit silencers on a myriad of hosts and see if the 3", 4", and 5" are at what rate.. Then verify the length where the instability drops off. My bet is 6" or 7" length is where all FRP shots do not keyhole.

Jason.. I don't mind doing this.. I will continue to post my findings and working with you.. I will try to see If I can get my silencer bead blasted and redo my tests to see if the lead buildup I have is the issue. If it is corrected than I will have to make arrangements to use one often. (or get one at Tractor Supply)

Again thanks.. I will post my 2nd pass of testing after I get the blast baffle cleaned. (it does have some lead in there)

John

[NoHair]

In the interest of responding in the thread, i wish I had more info, but yes, we are aware of this on some cans on some guns. and, yes, we have been working on a remedy. That's all I have right now, I'll see if I can find out more.

THANK YOU !!!!!
THAT is all I was looking for.
NoHair

[JasonAAC]

...snip...

Thanks for the input, please do add anything else you find as it will all help. More as i hear it.

[JohnInNH]

Jason.. Long day. I tried to find a shop with a bead blaster.. No luck all running course media... So I purchased a 50 lb bag of fine smooth glass media for $60 ... No one would let me use their guns.. So I purchased a bead blast cabinet & gun.. Spent some time putting it together w/o any directions... Sweet

Wheeled it from the barn to the garage where I have my compressor. It did not work would not suck up the media... Hummmm.

Checked all the fittings etc... Turning it down from 120 PSI to 80 PSI fixed it.

I then removed ALL the lead and carbon fouling in the core. The blast baffle had the scallop full of lead and the mouse hole was 1/2 filled

Once back to brand new condition I ran out to test fire.

First off to my pleasant surprise the FRP was about 1/2 of what it was yesterday!

Unfortunately, it had even worse stability. P-22 two out of 4 were sideways AND the SIG had 4 out of 4 sideways? Very odd since yesterday it was one of the better performers. My 4" High Standard had one sideways and one off round.

The TacSol 1911 all hit the tape on the box but looked OK.. I was rushing and was loosing light. I need to re-shoot the TacSol.

I will do a more controlled complete test tomorrow. But it appears the stability went down along with the dB.

I really wanted to provide you with good data with a squeaky clean core as Mike thought the leading was the problem.

I really did not want to spent $175 for media and a sand blast cabinet.. But could not find one to use and wanted to provide the data as promised.

Now I have one.

Jason, if you see Mike Mers please tell him John in NH cleaned his core and had no improvement and probably a decline in stability .. BUT improved dB reduction.. This explains why I was having such viscous FRP. It was very pleasant today...

Take note.... if people have bad FRP make sure they remove ALL leading in the Blast Baffle I did not think it would have THAT much of an effect.

Let me know if you want me to try or test anything else. (I will post my full result tomorrow)

I hope this helps...

John.

[JasonAAC]

...snip...

Awesome work, thanks.

We need to get you on the payroll...

[J Krammes]

John. Turn down the PSI a bit more for Al cores. You could probably get away with 30 or 40 PSI. I did my Outback II at 75 PSI and was told that was way to much. It has been a while, but 40 worked good for me.

Jeremy

[JohnInNH]

John. Turn down the PSI a bit more for Al cores. You could probably get away with 30 or 40 PSI. I did my Outback II at 75 PSI and was told that was way to much. It has been a while, but 40 worked good for me.

Jeremy

Jeremy .. Thanks.. I will try that next time.. It was my 1st time using this unit.

[JohnInNH]

Prodigy CLEAN testing

It appears cleaning the Prodigy did not help and may have actually made it a little worse.

I now get the 1st shot SLIGHTLY off center with the 16" rifle. Like with the pistols the 1st shot of 4 in a string it the offender. This is very interesting. If you look at the pictures closely the Xed shots are a different color and have a slight "tip" during entrance in the cardboard. This was NOT the case when the Prodigy was dirty with the blast baffle scallop filled with lead. You can see in my dirty Prodigy tests all 16" barrels shots were OK>

Pics of the test shots 4 shots per pistol per target and 4 shots with the 2 rifles on one target at the end.

The SIG had 2 fully keyholed in my first test the day before as reported earlier, but not yesterday. It got only 1.











Summery... It appears that the First run of Gen 2 cores may have the instability issue. If you have an early production Prodigy Gen II core test it and see. IF you have different results please post them.. The Clean vs dirty resulted in no or a slight increase of the instability in my testing. FRP was less in the clean core. It seems the FRP is no the cause but probably rather the increased muzzle pressure.

Jason I'm sorry I did not get this posted yesterday like I said I would.. I had a crew come to bring my new safe into the house. It took up more time than I expected.

Please keep me posted

Thanks.

[JasonAAC]

...snip...

Thanks John!