Conjugal visit for cans? and SBR bring home early?

[JDrin]

warning: someone on the internet (me) may be wrong.


I have a couple cans i'm doing the paperwork on now. While I wait for the 6 month sentencing of what I own to be released to my custody, my dealer and I talked about doing some weekend plinking to include my cans.

I'm curious. Am I just lucky to have a dealer that likes to play?



#2. ok, it's my understanding that if I own a SBR (AR), and my buddy "joe" would like to play with his new upper. I can take my under 16' upper off my SBR'ed lower, hand it to joe, joe mounts his 16+ upper, and everybody is happy as NO transfer of a SBR ever took place......humm?

If? say I was to order a 300blk full AR SBR's from AAC. I build 1 of my spare lowers as a pistol.

would I be out of line to assume I could go to the dealer on the day of delivery, mount the short upper on my pistol lower, mount a 16+ upper on the AAC lower, do the form 4, take them home (no stupid questions right? this may be close), wait for the forms approval, and then and only then, let the 2 halves meet again?

I have 0, none, nada intentions to do anything outside of the scope of regulations provided by the NFA process, or bend, flex, skate by, any rules or regulations federal or state.

[gunguy]

No it legit, I have also done this on all my pending cans. The sbr on the other hand I just had waiting for when the paper work showed up and couldnt shoot it.

[quiet 1]

I shoot my pending trannsfers with my dealer all the time.

Now the SBR. Not sure about the upper. You deff can't take the lower home, it is already a manufactured/registered SBR.

[yamatitan]

You can have the upper but not the lower until its transferred.

[JDrin]

I shoot my pending trannsfers with my dealer all the time.

Now the SBR. I would think you could take the upper to put on a pistol but like I said.....I think. You deff can't take the lower home, it is already a manufactured/registered SBR.

I logically follow you. I then question the legitimacy of being able to take my form 1 SBR AR, remove the short barrel, mount a 16+ upper, and let "joe" go play.

If the law is based on the configuration or capabilities of a device, one can then remove said capabilities and render the item non NFA controlled.

It just sound ambiguous in my head. (past experiences tell me not to proceed until all the voices in my head reach a consensus)

[quiet 1]

I shoot my pending trannsfers with my dealer all the time.

Now the SBR. I would think you could take the upper to put on a pistol but like I said.....I think. You deff can't take the lower home, it is already a manufactured/registered SBR.

I logically follow you. I then question the legitimacy of being able to take my form 1 SBR AR, remove the short barrel, mount a 16+ upper, and let "joe" go play.

If the law is based on the configuration or capabilities of a device, one can then remove said capabilities and render the item non NFA controlled.

It just sound ambiguous in my head. (past experiences tell me not to proceed until all the voices in my head reach a consensus)

An SBR lower is still a SBR even if you put a 16" barrel on it temporarily. Can your friend shoot it with you there? YES Can he take it home with him? NO

[JDrin]

An SBR lower is still a SBR even if you put a 16" barrel on it temporarily. Can your friend shoot it with you there? YES Can he take it home with him? NO

alright, thank you for the clarification! I was misinformed. I have been corrected.<--edit----spoke to soon keep reading

[JasonM]

An SBR lower is still a SBR even if you put a 16" barrel on it temporarily. Can your friend shoot it with you there? YES Can he take it home with him? NO

That's actually not true.

Check out the first two or 3 questions and answers here:

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/nationa ... a-transfer

If the qualifying features are changed on an SBR (a 16+" upper is put on, and the short upper is locked away separately), the gun is no longer under the control of the NFA.

This is useful if you are say going out of state and want to bring the lower. as long as it wears a 16+" upper, and you leave any SBR uppers at home, you can travel with the gun just like any other non-NFA gun.

You cannot legally throw another Short upper on it while out of state without having an approved travel form from the ATF... and if you had one of those, you most likely would have traveled with the short upper.

Once you get back home, replace the upper with the short one, and now it is in an SBR config and back under the NFA.

[quiet 1]

An SBR lower is still a SBR even if you put a 16" barrel on it temporarily. Can your friend shoot it with you there? YES Can he take it home with him? NO

That's actually not true.

Check out the first two or 3 questions and answers here:

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/nationa ... a-transfer

If the qualifying features are changed on an SBR (a 16+" upper is put on, and the short upper is locked away separately), the gun is no longer under the control of the NFA.

This is useful if you are say going out of state and want to bring the lower. as long as it wears a 16+" upper, and you leave any SBR uppers at home, you can travel with the gun just like any other non-NFA gun.

You cannot legally throw another Short upper on it while out of state without having an approved travel form from the ATF... and if you had one of those, you most likely would have traveled with the short upper.

Once you get back home, replace the upper with the short one, and now it is in an SBR config and back under the NFA.

"Installation of a barrel greater than 16 inches in length (SBR) or 18 inches in length (SBS) will remove the firearm from the purview of the NFA provided the registrant does not maintain control over the parts necessary to reconfigure the firearm as a SBR or SBS."

If it's locked up in your safe is it not still under your control regardless of your location? I thought you had to always "maintain control" over all of your NFA items. Seems like a gray area to me. I personaly would not risk it. Perhaps I'm incorrect but I tend to lean towards caution with my NFA items.

[quiet 1]

The more I read that the more it sounds like I'm wrong. My appologies if I am. Too much contradictory imformation with the ATF

[JDrin]

So the bureau of alcohol tobacco firearms explosives and ambiguity answer the following: "A weapon that does not meet the definition of a NFA “firearm” is not subject to the NFA and a possessor or transferor needn’t comply with NFA requirements"


if I do a form4 on a sbr lower (lets say an AAC, or maybe "ABC") then I could have it in my possession. this would be the same legalities as doing a form1 as it is in my possession. (obviously no assembly of an SBR by NFA parameters prior to form approval)

if I order a SBR Lower from "ABC" but only the lower, then it does not meet the NFA definition as an SBR, and does not need to go thru a class3, and can be sent thru FFL......
(then who does the form4?)<---I'm not really asking or think this is plausible, this is a definitions vs reality statement.


If I can cross state lines with my un-configured SBR, then joe could take my SBR lower with a 16+ upper home.

[SRM]

Wouldn`t that suck if your buddy Joe took the gun and pawned it.

[JDrin]

Wouldn`t that suck if your buddy Joe took the gun and pawned it.

LOL.... I don't really give a s--t about "Joe", and I have other lowers he can screw around with.

I'm just trying to wrap my mind around the legalities by using "joe" as a hypothetical proxy.

....you know? what would I do?

Report it stolen as just a lower? Or, report it stolen as a registered NFA? It may not be in a NFA configuration but it is in the system.


(hypothetically speaking, if I had access to Joe, how does one find somebody to sell kidneys to?)

[JasonM]

if I do a form4 on a sbr lower (lets say an AAC, or maybe "ABC") then I could have it in my possession. this would be the same legalities as doing a form1 as it is in my possession. (obviously no assembly of an SBR by NFA parameters prior to form approval)

Yes, but this isa letter of the law thing that is really convoluted- a lower, even once registered, is only an SBR when it is configured as one. And a gun must be complete (upper and lower) to be the SBR... maybe reading what i add below will be clearer:

if I order a SBR Lower from "ABC" but only the lower, then it does not meet the NFA definition as an SBR, and does not need to go thru a class3, and can be sent thru FFL......
(then who does the form4?)<---I'm not really asking or think this is plausible, this is a definitions vs reality statement.

You cannot order JUST an SBR-registered lower from a manufacturer. It must be a complete gun. BEcause on the ATF form (1 or 4), it must have a listed barrel length and overall length... both measurements are impossible to get without having a complete gun.

If you DO buy a registered SBR lower from a private sale that is NOT in an SBR configuration, then you do not have to go through a class 3 dealer. BUT, then in order for you to take said gun and run it as an SBR, you would need to file a form 1 and engrave your info on it. In essence, you are now making a new SBR.

The way around it is to transfer a complete SBR to yourself from the seller, but that would of course require a form 4 and tax.

If I can cross state lines with my un-configured SBR, then joe could take my SBR lower with a 16+ upper home.

yes. Provided joe does not have any parts to make it back into an SBR config.

[markm]

Yeah.. I test fired/zeroed one of my SBR uppers on a buddy's SBR lower while I was waiting for my Stamp.

[O2HeN2]

So I'm confused (no surprise). Would this work?

I order a SBR, either just a lower or full rifle. Once my local FFL gets it and I've submitted the Form 4, can I bring the lower home without the short upper and put a long upper on it and therefore possess it while waiting for the form to come back?

O2

[JDrin]

You cannot order JUST an SBR-registered lower from a manufacturer. It must be a complete gun. BEcause on the ATF form (1 or 4), it must have a listed barrel length and overall length... both measurements are impossible to get without having a complete gun.

I got to that question myself, I think JasonM knocked that one

[JasonM]

So I'm confused (no surprise). Would this work?

I order a SBR, either just a lower or full rifle. Once my local FFL gets it and I've submitted the Form 4, can I bring the lower home without the short upper and put a long upper on it and therefore possess it while waiting for the form to come back?

O2

1- you have to order a complete SBR, no factory SBR can be sold as just the lower.

2- I have no idea how your early transfer situation would work... the gun has to transfer to you from your dealer some how, so i don't think they could transfer it to you as a non SBR while they are waiting on approval of a transfer as an SBR...

The only way I could see is the dealer switches the upper to a 16+ upper, and transfers it to you as a non-SBR rifle. Then, you register it on a FORM 1 as an SBR. You can use it as a non-SBR while you are waiting on approval. But then , you are the MAKER and need to have the lower engraved with your info as part of the registration.

I don't think that is worth it, and I don't think any dealers would be willing to do that, on the off chance that a customer DID put on a short upper and get in trouble... the dealer could then be on the hook for facilitating and illegal SBR transfer.

Everyone is better off if you leave the gun complete and enjoy your SBR once it is approved.

This crap is confusing.