Prove clean barrels are more accurate.

[doubloon]

In airguns "dirty" barrels are often more consistent than clean barrels.

There is no "fouling" to speak of in airguns but I am a believer that significant copper fouling can negatively impact accuracy.

I am considering rescinding my statement about copper negatively affecting accuracy.

Clean Bore vs. Cold Bore
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SICfh6iYkpQ

edited to update video link http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvQInq_aBbk

[JohnInNH]

Cold Bore Shot = first shot out of a COLD barrel it usually will have a repeatable poi shift

Not talking about a stripped clean bore first shot poi shift. It can take 10 shots to settle in. I found the video link frustrating due to the misuse of CBS. Smack The Smilely was a contest where knowing your CBS was the test. This contest was run for quite some time over on the Hide. It is not the shooter there is a poi shift in a true CBS.

I very rarely clean copper out. I do clean powder/carbon out, and will run a rust inhibitor "oil" of sorts if i am storing.

Funny in the video he says he breaks in his barrels.... IMHO his was very excessive. He agrees a barrel cleaned of copper shoots less accurately than one that is settled in. But now we have some confusion. What is "clean"? He says he DOES clean the powder/carbon out, but does not clean his bore- To me that is cleaning the gun.

So the general statement "a clean gun is not as accurate", means what? A carbon fouled rifle can have severe pressures from a carbon ring just in front of the throat. It is important to clean your rifle, but not take the copper out. The cleaning is to remove the carbon buildup and to prevent pitting/rust. A few patches with a friendly solvent/clp that is not a copper cleaner makes for a happy rifle. Your pre clean poi and accuracy is restored by one "fouling" shot. One shot into the bullet trap at home, pre out call, will insure an accurate predictable CBS.

I think we almost need two different words for cleaning. To me cleaning does not include copper stripping, but seems to mean that to some people. "I never clean my gun" but then later find out they do clean carbon out. So what do we call that? I have always called it "cleaning" should I call it a Quick clean, or Partial cleaning? I rarely if ever strip the copper out after my initial, less than 10 shot, break in. Break in may not be the correct term.

The only time I strip copper is when groups start to open up. This may be after a season of heavy shooting. With a custom barrel maybe never, not "yet" is more accurate. At the rate i shoot ant the lack of any appreciable buildup my FNSPR an GAP rifles I may never need to.

[doubloon]

I agree if the video were scripted and more instructional than conversational it would probably be more consistent in its use of terminology.

But I think the message is clear. Clean carbon not copper unless you have a barrel that strips a lot of copper off the jacket then, as you say, clean it when the groups open up.

He uses the word "clean" by itself differently depending on context but early on he does clarify he cleans only carbon every session and not copper, he never or rarely cleans copper out of a bore.

When he's talking about CBS he seems to be saying the shift between CBS with copper build up and CBS without copper are significantly different and not necessarily the fault of the shooter not sticking to routine. It's a little confusing but I think what he's trying to say is if you strip the copper out every day you'll get a bigger CBS shift than if you don't clean the copper regardless of whether or not you do your part as the shooter.

He actually goes so far as to specifically say, and repeat, if you don't clean the copper out of your weapon you will see minimal CBS POI shift if you do your part on the fist shot. Around 7 minutes into the video he makes a distinction between "clean cold bore" as opposed to just "cold bore".

Overall it seems he is basically saying, with a quality barrel and a carbon only cleaning routine, equipment related CBS POI shift is a myth and is primarily caused by the shooter not the rifle.

As for the break in, he says what everybody other reasonable person says about break ins. It may not help but it can't hurt, kinda like going to church every Sunday.

[Jim Keeney]

My name is Jim Keeney. This is my first post on these forums, so I hope to not come across as a dunce. It has been my experience that barrel cleaning and the benefits it has are VERY gun-to-gun, caliber-to-caliber or purpose-to-purpose.

I now have four .22lr rifles: A CZ 452 Varmint that has been fairly heavily worked over and wears a TBA Peacemaker suppressor, a Browning 52 (Win 52 clone) with nothing more than a very good trigger overhaul, a Winchester 52C, and a Remington 40-X that is currently at my gunsmith's shop awaiting a barrel setback, rechambering, threading for suppressor, and recrowning.

For accuracy/target I shoot only Wolf Match Extra, Wolf Match Target, and Federal UM1 (I have a fair enough supply for my own occasional use still and no concern for sale/collector value unless I am offered dumb money for it). I use CCI Standard Velocity for fouling shots and in cases where targets are not requiring precision.

The CZ 452 shoots the Wolf of both types fair when very clean 3/4" max at 50 yards and riding 2" steel plates easily at 100, but tightens up considerably after about 20-25rds, dropping to 1/2" max groups at 50 and hitting 1.5" steel plates at 100 about 90% of the time. After 250 rounds or so, things get very erratic, flyers come out of the blue, and hits on steel drop to 40% or less. Time to clean, gently, down to bare bore. It's also a whole heckuva lot easier to clean my suppressor on this same interval. Any longer and the caked goo is a beast.

The Browning 52 will not shoot under 1.5", usually about 1.75", at 50 until it has about 50rds through it. After 50rds it gets pretty good, about 7/8-1" at 50 is the norm for 5rds. It will hold this, occasionally getting tighter, up until you can barely make out the rifling, which is when it opens up again, then gets cleaned. Repeat poor accuracy up to first 50rds or so.

The Winchester likes 2-5 fouling shots to settle in, will often one-hole at 50, and I do not recall missing a plate at 100yds. On paper, it starts to open up after 200rds or so. Can't give you numbers, but going from one hole to a group where you can count rounds is enough to tell. That said, it does not get shot often. I used to have an Anschutz 1710D-HB that performed about the same, but, sadly, sold it.

My 40-x, sadly, is probably one of the few bad ones that made it out. The chamber is out of spec, and the crown isn't bad but certainly not what I'd call match, which is why it's being worked on. That said, much like the Browning 52, it shot well only after it got caked, but not like most 40-x I have shot. The CZ put it to shame, for sure.

Of my centerfire rifles, they have different opinions, too.

I have a factory Howa 1500 .243 that does not shoot well cleaned to bare bore, 2" being par, but is 1.25" or less at 100yds with most any 95gr bullet/load after a dozen or more rounds, so I simply tear it down and flush it with the solvent in my cleaning tank and run a nylon brush through it a few times every so often just to keep it from aging prematurely. It is a 400yd max deer rifle, so match accuracy is of little concern.

My Howa .308 was a different story. It fouled like mad and gobbled up copper fouling to the point of having a purely orange bore after 4-5 rounds, and accuracy was never consistent enough to really appreciate whether it liked clean, one fouling shot, a fouling group, or dirty bore. I had my gunsmith, Dave Sams, lap it HEAVILY to get it super smooth, and it shoots 1/2" at 100yds now with 168 or 175 Fed GMM all day, every day. The bore doesn't look like a copper pipe after a few rounds or a 50 rd session, and there is zero difference, to me, in group sizes clean or dirty.

My trued/blueprinted Remington 700 in .260 wears a 26" Kreiger barrel. I did a 1x10, 2x5, 5x5, 10x1 break-in sequence just to be safe, and I now clean at least every 25rds to keep the throat clean and help slow erosion more than anything. It is my "pet" rifle, so I prefer to keep it on the safe side rather than risk finding out the hard way. Given that I did the break-in sequence with factory Remington 140gr Core-Lokt and got 1/2-3/4" 100yd groups at each stage with no POI shift, I figured cleaning couldn't hurt and this rifle was going to perform.

I have a Remington 760 Carbine in .30-06 given to me by my grandfather before he passed. It will shoot any brand ammo with any type from 150-180gr into 3" or less at 100yards, and has taken more deer for me, my uncle, and my grandfather than I can imagine. From what I know, it has been cleaned but once in its 40-50 something year history, and that was when I had it refinished and restocked (rusting a bit with broken stock). Lo' and behold, it was still a consistent 3" rifle. Cleaning it, or not, was likely a choice based on the tedious nature of cleaning from the muzzle or using pull-through cables rather than laziness or lack of concern.

I will say, lack of cleaning, especially carbon and powder residue, will speed throat erosion, but not as much as super-hot loads. Barrels tend to last longer when we don't try to turn a .308 into a .300WM.

Leaving oil in the bore before shooting IS a bad idea, as this will either turn to carbon or have a slight hydraulic effect on the bore as the bullet passes through. Something will have to give, even if it's not easily measurable on a shot to shot basis.

Choosing your cleaning equipment and chemicals wisely and using them properly is the only way to really see what helps and what doesn't. Dragging a steel rod, especially sectioned surplus GI field kit types, through a bore without a bore guide, will do damage one way or another.

I tend to think going with a bore guide, carbon fiber rod, and a nylon brush soaked in a decent copper solvent is the best way, but shooting is always more fun than cleaning.

Sorry for the long post. Just my experiences.

~Jim Keeney

[JohnnyC]

As for the break in, he says what everybody other reasonable person says about break ins. It may not help but it can't hurt, kinda like going to church every Sunday.

Gale McMillan would certainly disagree with this statement, and aside from being anecdotal, the evidence is pretty well documented.

[doubloon]

As for the break in, he says what everybody other reasonable person says about break ins. It may not help but it can't hurt, kinda like going to church every Sunday.

Gale McMillan would certainly disagree with this statement, and aside from being anecdotal, the evidence is pretty well documented.

But isn't he talking mainly about excessive break in firing and not break in cleaning? As in firing some magical number of rounds like 100, 200 or 500 to break in the barrel? If his claim is that a 5 round break in does more harm than good then that seems to say every barrel is only good for one shot.

Mainly what he's talking about is the wear on the barrel that happens with each shot and not giving any consideration to the copper that might be left behind as a good thing. Copper left behind seems like something "physical" that takes place.

[JohnnyC]

As for the break in, he says what everybody other reasonable person says about break ins. It may not help but it can't hurt, kinda like going to church every Sunday.

Gale McMillan would certainly disagree with this statement, and aside from being anecdotal, the evidence is pretty well documented.

But isn't he talking mainly about excessive break in firing and not break in cleaning? As in firing some magical number of rounds like 100, 200 or 500 to break in the barrel? If his claim is that a 5 round break in does more harm than good then that seems to say every barrel is only good for one shot.

Mainly what he's talking about is the wear on the barrel that happens with each shot and not giving any consideration to the copper that might be left behind as a good thing. Copper left behind seems like something "physical" that takes place.

What I was able to glean from his postings on the subject, anything you put down the bore is going to diminish it to some level from factory perfect (custom barrel, not Remington factory). Obviously this can take the form of either excessive round count, or as I've seen in one post, excessive cleaning also falls underneath the same purview. I don't disagree with getting rid of excess copper fouling, and getting rid of carbon, but I certainly don't see any logic behind the goofy "fire one then clean until spotless patch, fire again, repeat cleaning, fire five, repeat cleaning, fire 10 repeat cleaning, etc." He even mentions excessive cleaning as some chemicals, brushes, rods, etc. can damage the barrel, although certainly not to the extent as firing the gun. He also mentions those goofy Tubbs "final finish" as quickly accelerating barrel wear.

Best I can understand is that there's no benefit to any firing/cleaning schedule other than cleaning when accuracy begins to diminish. If it takes a couple fouling shots to get the best accuracy that's fine, and once there you continue shooting until you notice a degradation in accuracy, clean, fouling shots, then continue business as usual.

[doubloon]

The only rationalization I can put on the shoot one, clean all the carbon/copper/fouling down to the bare metal then repeat procedure is maybe someone is trying to argue that if there is a stubborn burr/bump/whatever left on one of the lands that any copper hanging up on it will "protect" it but if you clean the copper out you have a chance of knocking the burr down. I can't say that really makes much sense to me, just trying to guess the logic.

I thoroughly clean every gun I buy before I ever shoot the first round through it because I'm paranoid about some piece of junk or a shaving sitting in the bore waiting for a projectile to jam it into the rifling.

After that, I clean/lube it with a bore snake before I put it in the safe. Sometimes I'll run a bore snake through it when I take it out of the safe if it's been sitting a while before I shoot.

I'm somewhere in the middle of the guy who cleans his gun every time he touches it and the guy thinks he owns a cleaning kit but can't remember where he left it.

All that final finish type stuff gives me the heebie jeebies. Why the hell do I want to run sandpaper down my bore at 2500+fps?

[eric10mm]

So, take a 6mm benchrest shooter.

Fire 30 rounds on a clean barrel.

Fire 470 more rounds.

Do another 30 round group.

Do you have any idea how many months this test will take a benchrest shooter?

[doubloon]

Factoring in all the collecting, cleaning, resizing, turning and trimming of brass required to reload one round. Not to mention the primer weighing, primer seating, powder measuring, bullet selecting, temperature reading, etc.

Are you sure months isn't too fine a granularity for measuring the time?

[JohnInNH]

As stated earlier.. a shoot 3 n clean to bare metal and shoot 3 repeat. does change the surface and makes a barrel clean faster, and foul less. But does it effect accuracy .. Regular usage will do the same anyway.

I do a VERY abbreviated break in.. It is biased on "feel" shoot 3 and clean 3x was all it took to have the "change" in the surface in my FN barrel.. My Customs took about 4-5 cycles.. I did not use a bronze bore brush only patches and bore guide. Very minimal procedure.. My end result is faster cleaning (when I do clean) and less fouling.

I do not claim increased accuracy. I rarely strip all the copper out. No point. I do clean the carbon. Shooting reduced loads (subs) cruds up a barrel. The 260 is prone to a buildup of a "carbon ring" which will cause higher pressures.

[Hoop]

The whole idea is to eliminate as many variables as you can. You add a cheekpiece to eliminate shadowing the scope causing parallax.

You bed the rifle to allow for consistent action screw torque.

You float the barrel to assure the barrel harmonics are the same each shot.

You cut a perfect crown so the pressures following the bullet apply themselves equally to the rear of the bullet.

You clean the barrel during break in to provide the best surface inside the bore for the projectile to ride on. If you did not clean it, the projectile would skim over/through the copper and other fouling during the break in process as it tried to wear off the machine marks from the manufacturing process.
Granted, most custom barrels are already lapped in.

All this will allow more shots to be fired between cleanings and a more consistent friction surface in the bore.

I have seen more than a few of these "No Clean" folks on the boards who rarely see a rifle make 1k rounds before they trade it off for the next best thing.

I tend to listen to my data and anal folks who shoot barrels out on 308 winchester chambered rifles. Both tell me to do everything consistently. Cleaning, all the way to fundamentals of shooting.

With the proper cleaning rod and solvents, you can easily clean a rifle bore without damaging its integrity.

If its a Factory Remington Barrel, just shoot it. It will foul up in 50 rounds anyway. No matter what you do. Boresnake and go.lol

[ChimeraPrecision]

When I had a factory rem 700 barrel I would take a break and snake the barrel every 20 rounds. It seemed to hold up nicely after many rounds

[markm]

I'll try to get the carbon out every 50 rounds. I'll finish up that cleaning with some Bore Tech to keep the copper build up minimal. I don't clean til there's NO green on the patch, I just try to keep the copper fouling at bay.