Got my first form back / ATF doctored it!
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- Silent But Deadly
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Got my first form back / ATF doctored it!
ATF received my SBR registration on Sept 15, 2011. Finally got it back today...after 6months 6 days. I did it under a trust. Under the trusts name and address I wrote 'U/A/D August 30, 2011' This was when the trust was formed. ATF whited out 'U/A/D August 30, 2011'. I would think the date would be an important identifier, as a similar trust could be named, but would have a different dated date.
Anyway, don't really care. They can white out whatever they like. Just glad to get the first one back. Got 7 more out there. Now got to mail SBR for engraving. It would be something if the SBR gets lost in the mail after all this hassle!
Anyway, don't really care. They can white out whatever they like. Just glad to get the first one back. Got 7 more out there. Now got to mail SBR for engraving. It would be something if the SBR gets lost in the mail after all this hassle!
- Bendersquint
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Re: Got my first form back / ATF doctored it!
Date the trust made means nothing, it never should have been put in there. If they wanted to know when it was created there would be a block for it or they would call and ask.slackercruster wrote:ATF received my SBR registration on Sept 15, 2011. Finally got it back today...after 6months 6 days. I did it under a trust. Under the trusts name and address I wrote 'U/A/D August 30, 2011' This was when the trust was formed. ATF whited out 'U/A/D August 30, 2011'. I would think the date would be an important identifier, as a similar trust could be named, but would have a different dated date.
Anyway, don't really care. They can white out whatever they like. Just glad to get the first one back. Got 7 more out there. Now got to mail SBR for engraving. It would be something if the SBR gets lost in the mail after all this hassle!
You should have had it engraved when it was a Title1 item, alot easier and alot more people that can work on it.
Re: Got my first form back / ATF doctored it!
That's a good question, regarding an SBR, is it still considered Title 1 while in Title 1 "form"? Say for instance you have an AR pistol, you are going to SBR it so you send off the form 1. Form 1 is approved, in hand. The AR is still in pistol form, no stock on it. Is it now considered Title 2 since you have the approved form 1 or is it still Title 1 until you put the stock on there and actually "convert" it to an SBR?
- Bendersquint
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Re: Got my first form back / ATF doctored it!
It is title2 as soon as you have the approved Form in hand.Wahnsinn wrote:That's a good question, regarding an SBR, is it still considered Title 1 while in Title 1 "form"? Say for instance you have an AR pistol, you are going to SBR it so you send off the form 1. Form 1 is approved, in hand. The AR is still in pistol form, no stock on it. Is it now considered Title 2 since you have the approved form 1 or is it still Title 1 until you put the stock on there and actually "convert" it to an SBR?
Re: Got my first form back / ATF doctored it!
I have what has to be the most butchered form 4 ever approved. Between the dealer and the ATF I still do not believe it came back with a stamp on it. Looks like it was done buy a group of third graders. The stamp and the serial number and my name are all ok so I will take it. I sure was not going to send it back for them to do over...
"If you carry a gun, people call you paranoid. That's ridiculous. If I have a gun, what in the hell do I have to be paranoid about?"
Clint Smith
Clint Smith
Re: Got my first form back / ATF doctored it!
That would drive me nuts!!!rogerme wrote:I have what has to be the most butchered form 4 ever approved. Between the dealer and the ATF I still do not believe it came back with a stamp on it. Looks like it was done buy a group of third graders. The stamp and the serial number and my name are all ok so I will take it. I sure was not going to send it back for them to do over...
- kalikraven
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Re: Got my first form back / ATF doctored it!
Is it really? I thought you could get a refund if you never made the rifle or pistol into a SBR. Is the tax stamp non-refundable after it's issued?It is title2 as soon as you have the approved Form in hand.
Going a little more discrete here due to some of my opinions...
- Bendersquint
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Re: Got my first form back / ATF doctored it!
Yes you can get a refund but until the refund check is issued it is Title2 still. If ATF came looking for it even if you hadn't "converted" it, it would still be accountable as a Title2 firearm. They left the provision in there for a refund if you didn't actually convert it.kalikraven wrote:Is it really? I thought you could get a refund if you never made the rifle or pistol into a SBR. Is the tax stamp non-refundable after it's issued?It is title2 as soon as you have the approved Form in hand.
- kalikraven
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Re: Got my first form back / ATF doctored it!
Ok thanks, thats what I thought with reguards to the refund.
Going a little more discrete here due to some of my opinions...
Re: Got my first form back / ATF doctored it!
A SBR is a Title 2 firearm as soon as you have the approved Form in hand and attach a short barreled upper to the lower. Remove the short barreled upper and you have a Title 1 lower.Bendersquint wrote:It is title2 as soon as you have the approved Form in hand.Wahnsinn wrote:That's a good question, regarding an SBR, is it still considered Title 1 while in Title 1 "form"? Say for instance you have an AR pistol, you are going to SBR it so you send off the form 1. Form 1 is approved, in hand. The AR is still in pistol form, no stock on it. Is it now considered Title 2 since you have the approved form 1 or is it still Title 1 until you put the stock on there and actually "convert" it to an SBR?
Re: Got my first form back / ATF doctored it!
thats fine for the FAL but not for the AR-15 there is the serial number thing thats sort of imprinted on the lower and it seems that number is also in the form and the ATF seems to have it recorded as a SBRTEXMEX wrote:
A SBR is a Title 2 firearm as soon as you have the approved Form in hand and attach a short barreled upper to the lower. Remove the short barreled upper and you have a Title 1 lower.
explain how you say its not so
I have two hobbies. Shooting and reloading. The more I do of one the more I can do of the other.
Re: Got my first form back / ATF doctored it!
It appears you can place a 16+" barrel on an SBR and sell it without notification of NFA, the ask you too but don't require it.
From BATFE
Q: I possess a properly registered SBR or SBS. I intend to strip the receiver and remove the barrel prior to selling the receiver. Is the bare receiver still subject to regulation under the NFA as a SBR or SBS?
A stripped receiver without a barrel does not meet the definition of a SBR or SBS under the NFA. Although the previously registered firearm would remain registered unless the possessor notified the NFA Branch of the change, there is no provision in statute or regulation requiring registration of a firearm without a barrel because its physical characteristics would make it only a GCA “firearm” pursuant to 18 U.S.C. § 921(a)(3)(B). If the subsequent owner buys the receiver as a GCA firearm and installs a barrel less than 16 inches in length (SBR) or 18 inches in length (SBS), the firearm would be subject to a $200 making tax and registration under the NFA by the manufacturer or maker of the SBR or SBS. Because registration depends upon the stated intent of the applicant, there is no provision to allow registration of a NFA firearm by anyone other than the maker or manufacturer.
Q: If I remove the short barrel from the registered SBR or SBS, is the receiver still subject to NFA transfer and possession regulations?
If the possessor retains control over the barrel or other parts required to assemble the SBR or SBS, the firearm would still be subject to NFA transfer and possession regulations. ATF recommends contacting State law enforcement officials to ensure compliance with state and local law.
Q: Does the installation of a barrel over 16 inches in length (SBR) or 18 inches in length (SBS) remove the firearm from the purview of the NFA? If so, is this considered a permanent change?
Installation of a barrel greater than 16 inches in length (SBR) or 18 inches in length (SBS) will remove the firearm from the purview of the NFA provided the registrant does not maintain control over the parts necessary to reconfigure the firearm as a SBR or SBS.
Q: Is it necessary to send notification to ATF and receive acknowledgement that the SBR or SBS has been removed from the purview of the NFA before it may be sold as a GCA firearm?
There is no requirement for the possessor of a registered NFA firearm to notify ATF that the firearm has been removed from the purview of the NFA. However, ATF recommends the possessor notify the NFA Branch of such changes in writing so that the possessor is not mistakenly identified as the owner if the firearm is later used in a crime. If, at the time of transfer, the firearm does not meet the definition of a SBR, it should be transferred without filing the NFA transfer application and without payment of the transfer tax.
From BATFE
Q: I possess a properly registered SBR or SBS. I intend to strip the receiver and remove the barrel prior to selling the receiver. Is the bare receiver still subject to regulation under the NFA as a SBR or SBS?
A stripped receiver without a barrel does not meet the definition of a SBR or SBS under the NFA. Although the previously registered firearm would remain registered unless the possessor notified the NFA Branch of the change, there is no provision in statute or regulation requiring registration of a firearm without a barrel because its physical characteristics would make it only a GCA “firearm” pursuant to 18 U.S.C. § 921(a)(3)(B). If the subsequent owner buys the receiver as a GCA firearm and installs a barrel less than 16 inches in length (SBR) or 18 inches in length (SBS), the firearm would be subject to a $200 making tax and registration under the NFA by the manufacturer or maker of the SBR or SBS. Because registration depends upon the stated intent of the applicant, there is no provision to allow registration of a NFA firearm by anyone other than the maker or manufacturer.
Q: If I remove the short barrel from the registered SBR or SBS, is the receiver still subject to NFA transfer and possession regulations?
If the possessor retains control over the barrel or other parts required to assemble the SBR or SBS, the firearm would still be subject to NFA transfer and possession regulations. ATF recommends contacting State law enforcement officials to ensure compliance with state and local law.
Q: Does the installation of a barrel over 16 inches in length (SBR) or 18 inches in length (SBS) remove the firearm from the purview of the NFA? If so, is this considered a permanent change?
Installation of a barrel greater than 16 inches in length (SBR) or 18 inches in length (SBS) will remove the firearm from the purview of the NFA provided the registrant does not maintain control over the parts necessary to reconfigure the firearm as a SBR or SBS.
Q: Is it necessary to send notification to ATF and receive acknowledgement that the SBR or SBS has been removed from the purview of the NFA before it may be sold as a GCA firearm?
There is no requirement for the possessor of a registered NFA firearm to notify ATF that the firearm has been removed from the purview of the NFA. However, ATF recommends the possessor notify the NFA Branch of such changes in writing so that the possessor is not mistakenly identified as the owner if the firearm is later used in a crime. If, at the time of transfer, the firearm does not meet the definition of a SBR, it should be transferred without filing the NFA transfer application and without payment of the transfer tax.
Re: Got my first form back / ATF doctored it!
Can and should are not the same.glocker17 wrote:It appears you can place a 16+" barrel on an SBR and sell it without notification of NFA, the ask you too but don't require it.
"If you carry a gun, people call you paranoid. That's ridiculous. If I have a gun, what in the hell do I have to be paranoid about?"
Clint Smith
Clint Smith
Re: Got my first form back / ATF doctored it!
Regardless, if it's a receiver with no barrel, it's considered Title 1 in the eyes of the law. Once the short barrel is attached, it becomes a SBR. In the case of an AR, you can have a 16" upper to install on it if you want to take it out of state without doing a 5320.20 and it is perfectly legal.rogerme wrote:Can and should are not the same.glocker17 wrote:It appears you can place a 16+" barrel on an SBR and sell it without notification of NFA, the ask you too but don't require it.
If you aren't absolutely certain about something, don't parrot misinformation or perpetuate it the same.
Re: Got my first form back / ATF doctored it!
I do not recall saying anything about anything absolute. Just because something is LEGAL to do does not mean it is prudent to do so.Surly wrote:Regardless, if it's a receiver with no barrel, it's considered Title 1 in the eyes of the law. Once the short barrel is attached, it becomes a SBR. In the case of an AR, you can have a 16" upper to install on it if you want to take it out of state without doing a 5320.20 and it is perfectly legal.rogerme wrote:Can and should are not the same.glocker17 wrote:It appears you can place a 16+" barrel on an SBR and sell it without notification of NFA, the ask you too but don't require it.
If you aren't absolutely certain about something, don't parrot misinformation or perpetuate it the same.
"If you carry a gun, people call you paranoid. That's ridiculous. If I have a gun, what in the hell do I have to be paranoid about?"
Clint Smith
Clint Smith
Re: Got my first form back / ATF doctored it!
If it is LEGAL, it is prudent to do it. If it's ILLEGAL, it's prudent to do it if you're a criminal. There a definite black and white difference and they can be expressed in absolutes.rogerme wrote:Surly wrote:I do not recall saying anything about anything absolute. Just because something is LEGAL to do does not mean it is prudent to do so.rogerme wrote:Regardless, if it's a receiver with no barrel, it's considered Title 1 in the eyes of the law. Once the short barrel is attached, it becomes a SBR. In the case of an AR, you can have a 16" upper to install on it if you want to take it out of state without doing a 5320.20 and it is perfectly legal.
If you aren't absolutely certain about something, don't parrot misinformation or perpetuate it the same.
- Bendersquint
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Re: Got my first form back / ATF doctored it!
Especially when it comes to the ATF looking for an item. When we got our manufacturers FFL years ago the ATF came with a list of all of my personally owned NFA items and wanted to verify I still had them.rogerme wrote:I do not recall saying anything about anything absolute. Just because something is LEGAL to do does not mean it is prudent to do so.
I asked the same question and was told that if they came looking for the SBR/SBS and I couldn't provide the weapon that it would be considered LOST unless they had proof that it was asked to be removed as it was in Title1 configuration via signed documentation. I was also told that a hand receipt from a private sale did not suffice.
Re: Got my first form back / ATF doctored it!
Surly wrote:
If it is LEGAL, it is prudent to do it. If it's ILLEGAL, it's prudent to do it if you're a criminal. There a definite black and white difference and they can be expressed in absolutes.
Well you go right ahead and tell that to the ATF folks who show up if they do at your house. See how that goes over. When they ask where is this SBR and you reply well I put a 16+ barrel on it and sold the thing they are going to say "you did not notify us of that" Then you go ahead and say I do not have to. This is the difference between prudent and legal. But you do as you wish.
"If you carry a gun, people call you paranoid. That's ridiculous. If I have a gun, what in the hell do I have to be paranoid about?"
Clint Smith
Clint Smith
Re: Got my first form back / ATF doctored it!
+1If you aren't absolutely certain about something, don't parrot misinformation or perpetuate it the same.
lots of incorrect info in here.
it is only an SBR if it meets the definition of one. If it is configured in such a way that does not meet the definition then it is a title 1 firearm and may be treated as such.
if you have a stripped lower and you get your approved form back then you have the same exact thing as you had the day before you got your form back. nothing has changed except the fact that you can legally build it into an SBR if you want.
Re: Got my first form back / ATF doctored it!
aggiez28 wrote:+1If you aren't absolutely certain about something, don't parrot misinformation or perpetuate it the same.
lots of incorrect info in here.
it is only an SBR if it meets the definition of one. If it is configured in such a way that does not meet the definition then it is a title 1 firearm and may be treated as such.
if you have a stripped lower and you get your approved form back then you have the same exact thing as you had the day before you got your form back. nothing has changed except the fact that you can legally build it into an SBR if you want.
As far as the law is on the books I agree. However living in the real world and having dealt with the ATF I personally would both notify them if the status of the item changed ( required to or not ) and keep very detailed records of the sale of the item if it was sold legally in a non NFA configuration. Again this is NOT required by law however these steps EVEN THOUGH NOT REQUIRED BY LAW would be prudent to avoid possible problems.
"If you carry a gun, people call you paranoid. That's ridiculous. If I have a gun, what in the hell do I have to be paranoid about?"
Clint Smith
Clint Smith
Re: Got my first form back / ATF doctored it!
Correct.aggiez28 wrote:+1If you aren't absolutely certain about something, don't parrot misinformation or perpetuate it the same.
lots of incorrect info in here.
it is only an SBR if it meets the definition of one. If it is configured in such a way that does not meet the definition then it is a title 1 firearm and may be treated as such.
if you have a stripped lower and you get your approved form back then you have the same exact thing as you had the day before you got your form back. nothing has changed except the fact that you can legally build it into an SBR if you want.
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Re: Got my first form back / ATF doctored it!
Rogerme,
I like the dead horse picture! LOL.
I'm thinking why would someone spend $200 for a tax stamp, not "make" the SBR and then sell it as a standard Title 1 lower receiver??? It seems like a lot of hassle for nothing and a big waste of time and money.
Carl
I like the dead horse picture! LOL.
I'm thinking why would someone spend $200 for a tax stamp, not "make" the SBR and then sell it as a standard Title 1 lower receiver??? It seems like a lot of hassle for nothing and a big waste of time and money.
Carl
Re: Got my first form back / ATF doctored it!
carlwilkey wrote:Rogerme,
I like the dead horse picture! LOL.
I'm thinking why would someone spend $200 for a tax stamp, not "make" the SBR and then sell it as a standard Title 1 lower receiver??? It seems like a lot of hassle for nothing and a big waste of time and money.
Carl
Because it is most times a quick and easy way to sell a lower/ rifle you do not want/ need anymore. Why would people sell a MG for half what they COULD get if they waited for a buyer? People do all kinds of odd things when they NEED cash. This is why pawnshops exist.
"If you carry a gun, people call you paranoid. That's ridiculous. If I have a gun, what in the hell do I have to be paranoid about?"
Clint Smith
Clint Smith
Re: Got my first form back / ATF doctored it!
Now let me bounce off that statement. Lets say you want to go to a shoot that is out of state and do not have time to send in a 5320.20 and have it approved before the trip, can you take the shorty upper off, travel to the shoot states away then re-assemble the SBR, is that legal?Surly wrote:Regardless, if it's a receiver with no barrel, it's considered Title 1 in the eyes of the law. Once the short barrel is attached, it becomes a SBR. In the case of an AR, you can have a 16" upper to install on it if you want to take it out of state without doing a 5320.20 and it is perfectly legal.
As far as many are concerned, once a receiver/firearm is listed in the NFA registry as a SBR/SBS it will always be a NFA firearm regardless if it has the short barrel or not. The only way for it to return to a Title I firearm is to write the ATF and have it removed from the registry.
Re: Got my first form back / ATF doctored it!
If you have the 5320 that says you can have the SBR in and to the state listed. The 5320 makes it legal to have it IN it's NFA configuration. If you have the 5320 you do not have to break it down. You could have any upper you want on it. As long as your have have the 5320 when it reverts to it's less then 16 inch barrel length. If you where to put a standard 20 inch ( or anything over 16 ) on it and leave the short upper at home then you woudl not need a 5320 though again I would recommend it JIC...Kramer wrote:Now let me bounce off that statement. Lets say you want to go to a shoot that is out of state and do not have time to send in a 5320.20 and have it approved before the trip, can you take the shorty upper off, travel to the shoot states away then re-assemble the SBR, is that legal?Surly wrote:Regardless, if it's a receiver with no barrel, it's considered Title 1 in the eyes of the law. Once the short barrel is attached, it becomes a SBR. In the case of an AR, you can have a 16" upper to install on it if you want to take it out of state without doing a 5320.20 and it is perfectly legal.
As far as many are concerned, once a receiver/firearm is listed in the NFA registry as a SBR/SBS it will always be a NFA firearm regardless if it has the short barrel or not. The only way for it to return to a Title I firearm is to write the ATF and have it removed from the registry.
You second statement in regards to this matter is SBR is false. There is NO LEGAL requirement to do so. Thus this debate.
"If you carry a gun, people call you paranoid. That's ridiculous. If I have a gun, what in the hell do I have to be paranoid about?"
Clint Smith
Clint Smith