ATF/NFA Trust Trouble
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ATF/NFA Trust Trouble
Found this on another forum
http://www.texasguntalk.com/forums/clas ... ouble.html
Guess that answers the question if you should post your new NFA item on your your Schedule A. I do not think I would but I see that a lot of people do put the new item on the Schedule A before it has been approved.
http://www.texasguntalk.com/forums/clas ... ouble.html
Guess that answers the question if you should post your new NFA item on your your Schedule A. I do not think I would but I see that a lot of people do put the new item on the Schedule A before it has been approved.
- Libertarian_Geek
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Re: ATF/NFA Trust Trouble
I always add to my Schedule A when it gets approved. I do an assignment of property form, update my Schedule A and go pick up my item. This always works for me this way. You'd think that the trust pays for it, and owns it even before the trustees may possess it but I guess it's viewed differently by the Bureau of All Things Fun.bdeardorf wrote:Found this on another forum
http://www.texasguntalk.com/forums/clas ... ouble.html
Guess that answers the question if you should post your new NFA item on your your Schedule A. I do not think I would but I see that a lot of people do put the new item on the Schedule A before it has been approved.
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- urban assault
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Re: ATF/NFA Trust Trouble
When I had my AK-74 SBR'd by the builder I put it into the schedule A before it was approved. Used Quicken 08 to make my own Trust for Oregon.
Got the stamp back in 57 days, no problems whatsoever.
Looks like the times they are a changing'... and not for the better.
-urban
Got the stamp back in 57 days, no problems whatsoever.
Looks like the times they are a changing'... and not for the better.
-urban
Re: ATF/NFA Trust Trouble
Read what the MOD says about this issue.
http://www.texasguntalk.com/forums/clas ... ble-3.html
Personally, this is exactly how I do mine and I haven't had the least bit of trouble in the last 3 transfers. My NFA lawyer also said to do it this way. Just like the MOD says in that topic, and I agree 100% with him.
It might be a new inspector or he has a hair over his buttocks, who can understand these guys. Some transfers go 2 months others last over a year, WHY?
They are never wrong in doing their jobs, have you noticed?
http://www.texasguntalk.com/forums/clas ... ble-3.html
Personally, this is exactly how I do mine and I haven't had the least bit of trouble in the last 3 transfers. My NFA lawyer also said to do it this way. Just like the MOD says in that topic, and I agree 100% with him.
It might be a new inspector or he has a hair over his buttocks, who can understand these guys. Some transfers go 2 months others last over a year, WHY?
They are never wrong in doing their jobs, have you noticed?
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Re: ATF/NFA Trust Trouble
I always advise my customers to never list anything in there Schedule A or assignment of personal property until the have the approved Forms in there hands. I also do this personally and have never had a issue with mine or any customers. If they are return customers that are adding a new item to the trust I always try to check to make sure that if they have any other items in there trust they are listed(ie:Make/Model/Serial#) I have had a call from the ATF saying that "in there records the John Doe Trust has X items that are not listed in the schedule A and they will need an updated version of it before they can approve the new item."
Randall Durham
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Greenville,SC 29609
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Fax-864-271-0806
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NFA SALES
Allen Arms Inc.
1210 Poinsett Hwy
Greenville,SC 29609
Ph-864-250-2007
Fax-864-271-0806
[email protected]
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Re: ATF/NFA Trust Trouble
I have customers with 5+ NFA items registered to their trust- but are not listed on their Schedule A. It only lists their initial property transfer. Like others have said- depends on the examiner.
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FFL/SOT
Madison, AL
256-783-5309
"Not the biggest- Just the best!"
Proud AAC SWR Silencerco Stocking Dealer
In einer Welt der Kompromisse Einige Männer Dont.
Re: ATF/NFA Trust Trouble
The new nfa item cannot be trust property until the transfer is approved
Just the nature of a trust
Until the transfer is approved, title to the item remains with the prior owner--how can the trust list it as trust property prior to approval?
Once approved, the item is trust property. The schedule a is just a convenient housekeeping item to list trust property. It is not a requirement except for a state's requirement under the duties of the trustee to "account" for trust property.
A schedule A can be considered part of an accounting...
It's not a requirement of the nfa or batfe, but so many people do it that it may have become part and parcel to what an examiner wants to see for future transfers.
I have 10 stamps and no sch a
My clients (just a few) have no sch a
But the "something is missing" batfe checkbox worksheet they send you has as an option and a missing sch a is one of them
I got this for including my name as trustee on a new trust instead of just the trust name in box 2a.
That same examiner approved 5 stamps of mine in 2009 with my name as trustee under the trust name in box 2a
So go figure
Just the nature of a trust
Until the transfer is approved, title to the item remains with the prior owner--how can the trust list it as trust property prior to approval?
Once approved, the item is trust property. The schedule a is just a convenient housekeeping item to list trust property. It is not a requirement except for a state's requirement under the duties of the trustee to "account" for trust property.
A schedule A can be considered part of an accounting...
It's not a requirement of the nfa or batfe, but so many people do it that it may have become part and parcel to what an examiner wants to see for future transfers.
I have 10 stamps and no sch a
My clients (just a few) have no sch a
But the "something is missing" batfe checkbox worksheet they send you has as an option and a missing sch a is one of them
I got this for including my name as trustee on a new trust instead of just the trust name in box 2a.
That same examiner approved 5 stamps of mine in 2009 with my name as trustee under the trust name in box 2a
So go figure
Re: ATF/NFA Trust Trouble
I have always gone by the theory that the MOD stated. Both my transfers were done with the item already on the schedule A. Last one was approved 4 Jan. I did however have my most recent form 4 returned because I didn't include copies of my schedule B or C (neither one have anything in them). I really think it is just luck of the draw on which examiner you get and how they interpret things.
Re: ATF/NFA Trust Trouble
We know that they have returned them for having the new item on the Sch A but does anyone know if one has ever been returned for NOT having the new item on the Sch A? Sounds like they have no set rule for it either, just depends on the examiner. Guess it comes down to which one has the best chance of not being returned.
Re: ATF/NFA Trust Trouble
Could A Guy Cover Himself BOTH WAYS....For The Possibility That You Might Get An Examiner Who Thinks the 'New' Can NEEDS To Be Listed On The Schedule, Versus An Examiner Who Thinks It Should NOT Be....
By Listing The 'NEW' Can Then Writing----(PENDING APPROVAL) ?
WYOGUY
By Listing The 'NEW' Can Then Writing----(PENDING APPROVAL) ?
WYOGUY
85% of all statistics are made up...and the other 30% are wrong!
Re: ATF/NFA Trust Trouble
pierre1631 wrote:I have customers with 5+ NFA items registered to their trust- but are not listed on their Schedule A. It only lists their initial property transfer. Like others have said- depends on the examiner.
If you never do an assignment of property and "sign in" your NFA item into your trust you are in violation. Your NFA items are contraband if not signed into your trust in a "reasonable amount of time" .... PERIOD!
Reasonable = Pick it up on a Friday... Sign it in the following week.. (I don't mess around and only let 1-2 working days at the most go by.)
Not reasonable = A month later.
Intentionally not signing them in is a direct violation. (they are still contraband if you forgot to sign it in and you could use it as a defense, but intentionally not signing them in is bad mogo!)
I called and asked. It is a direct violation to NOT sign the property into your trust.
Ok Ok the answer to HOW DO THEY KNOW... They Don't.... They can't tell.
But .. I suspect if you continue to to use the trust route and do not have any NFA items in a Schedule A that you used the trust to buy previously they could tell..
If you continue to use a trust and do not sign them in at some time I would expect an AFT agent may ask for to produce your trust documents and if you could not show them they would absolutely be in the right if they arrested you for possession of contraband.
Why a person would DELIBERATELY not sign a NFA item into their trust if they used the trust to buy it is beyond me. It's clearly breaking the law.
Be advised it is a FELONY. They are risking a LOT by not signing the items into their trust via an Assignment of Property.
I don;t screw around with this. I send in copies of my assignments of property to show the examiner I am following the law. A copy of my trust = Original trust documents + all Assignments of Property and CURRENT Schedule A
Long distance, the next best thing to being there!
Re: ATF/NFA Trust Trouble
Not that it matters as everyone does these trusts differently, but here are my specific instructions, copied and pasted word for word from my trust. My trust was made by a lawyer, and he charged me $750.00
One of the reasons I love Connecticut so much.......As I said above, this has worked 3 times so far, by 2 different examiners.
Assignment Page / Weapon Purchase
You should fill out an Assignment page (the last page of this document) for each purchase of
a firearm restricted by the NFA. We recommend printing and using a new copy each time and only
including the item(s) on the Form 4 or Form 1 you are sending in.
One of the reasons I love Connecticut so much.......As I said above, this has worked 3 times so far, by 2 different examiners.
Assignment Page / Weapon Purchase
You should fill out an Assignment page (the last page of this document) for each purchase of
a firearm restricted by the NFA. We recommend printing and using a new copy each time and only
including the item(s) on the Form 4 or Form 1 you are sending in.
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Re: ATF/NFA Trust Trouble
As long as it's listed before you physically take possession of it, you're good. The rest is just splitting hairs.
I subscribe to the belief that there is no "title" involved in NFA goodies, only a permission slip from the ATF as to who is authorized to be in possession of the item. So, if you pay for the item, it then belongs to you. Since there is no legal "title" involved, you do not have to wait for title work to be done. But even if there was, when does a car become yours? A: When you pay for it. The seller prepares a bill of sale and signs the title over to you when the money changes hands. The vehicle technically belongs to you even though the title is not yet in your name. So, IMHO, you should be able to list the item on your trust as soon as you pay for it. The only drawback I see there is if there is a mixup with the serial number, or if for some reason you do not get approved, then you have to remove the item from your trust.
Either way, as long as you add it to your trust before taking it home, you won't wind up on the wrong side of the law...
I subscribe to the belief that there is no "title" involved in NFA goodies, only a permission slip from the ATF as to who is authorized to be in possession of the item. So, if you pay for the item, it then belongs to you. Since there is no legal "title" involved, you do not have to wait for title work to be done. But even if there was, when does a car become yours? A: When you pay for it. The seller prepares a bill of sale and signs the title over to you when the money changes hands. The vehicle technically belongs to you even though the title is not yet in your name. So, IMHO, you should be able to list the item on your trust as soon as you pay for it. The only drawback I see there is if there is a mixup with the serial number, or if for some reason you do not get approved, then you have to remove the item from your trust.
Either way, as long as you add it to your trust before taking it home, you won't wind up on the wrong side of the law...
"And by the way, if you're gonna take up a hobby of letter writing, you might want to learn how to spell "writing" you stupid F--k." - Nighthawk re kwikrnu
Re: ATF/NFA Trust Trouble
My schedule A has only one item; "All NFA Items". Three form 4's processed with no issues. I sent a form 1 out last week so we'll see if any issues are raised.
Re: ATF/NFA Trust Trouble
This is my first time(posting) so be nice
I have been working on the side for a Class III dealer in Mississippi for the last 6 years. I have seen Form 4s come back. At first if the Trust was notarized it was signed off on and the Stamp issued (very simple). In the last Year and a Half. We got Forms back because they lacked being filed with the Chancery Clerk in the county of residence. Then it was a lack of a Schedule A and Schedule B. We were told we had to list an asset on Schedule A but it could not be the NFA item in question because, although it was payed for it did not belong to the Trust until the Stamp for that item was issued.
I am guessing that the requirement for filing with the Chancery Clerk is based off of our state law that requires it to be valid. Our state law also, requires any new items be listed in writing and filed with the Chancery Clerk.
However, we have not had the issue come up (with the ATF) about a complete list of Trust owned items not listed on a Schedule A presented with a new Form 4.
Time will tell
P.S. I am no lawyer, just a dumb LEO
P.S.S I also believe that a lot of this is a direct relationship to the mood of the examiner
I have been working on the side for a Class III dealer in Mississippi for the last 6 years. I have seen Form 4s come back. At first if the Trust was notarized it was signed off on and the Stamp issued (very simple). In the last Year and a Half. We got Forms back because they lacked being filed with the Chancery Clerk in the county of residence. Then it was a lack of a Schedule A and Schedule B. We were told we had to list an asset on Schedule A but it could not be the NFA item in question because, although it was payed for it did not belong to the Trust until the Stamp for that item was issued.
I am guessing that the requirement for filing with the Chancery Clerk is based off of our state law that requires it to be valid. Our state law also, requires any new items be listed in writing and filed with the Chancery Clerk.
However, we have not had the issue come up (with the ATF) about a complete list of Trust owned items not listed on a Schedule A presented with a new Form 4.
Time will tell
P.S. I am no lawyer, just a dumb LEO
P.S.S I also believe that a lot of this is a direct relationship to the mood of the examiner
Re: ATF/NFA Trust Trouble
That is right. The trust owns it when it's paid for. You are just applying for permission to possess the item. I have seven transfers, three more pending. Every one of my forms were sent in with the item being transferred already listed in the schedule "A". As a matter of fact, when I created the trust the first item in the Schedule "A" was the then unapproved SBR that was being Form 1ed. An Assignment of Property is just a waste of paper. Just go back into your computer program and add the item to the Schedule "A". The items in the Trust are whatever you say they are.Blaubart wrote:As long as it's listed before you physically take possession of it, you're good. The rest is just splitting hairs.
I subscribe to the belief that there is no "title" involved in NFA goodies, only a permission slip from the ATF as to who is authorized to be in possession of the item. So, if you pay for the item, it then belongs to you. Since there is no legal "title" involved, you do not have to wait for title work to be done.
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Re: ATF/NFA Trust Trouble
The ownership interest can be created before the right to posses is vested
But do you really want to argue with a bureaucrat?
But do you really want to argue with a bureaucrat?
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Re: ATF/NFA Trust Trouble
The ownership interest can be created before the right to posses is vested
But do you really want to argue with a bureaucrat?
But do you really want to argue with a bureaucrat?
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Re: ATF/NFA Trust Trouble
OK ... am new to the Trust thing. Did one through GunTrustLawyer recently. Have not applied for a Form 4 transfer yet, but expect to do so shortly.
For the first use of the Trust, do you include an empty Assignment Sheet in the Trust document, and then add the item to the assignment sheet when the transfer is approved?
Thanks!
For the first use of the Trust, do you include an empty Assignment Sheet in the Trust document, and then add the item to the assignment sheet when the transfer is approved?
Thanks!
Re: ATF/NFA Trust Trouble
add something to it like a 5 dollar bill to make it a valid trust. Then when you get the form 4 back add the item and take the 5 dollar bill out.eastern_hunter wrote:OK ... am new to the Trust thing. Did one through GunTrustLawyer recently. Have not applied for a Form 4 transfer yet, but expect to do so shortly.
For the first use of the Trust, do you include an empty Assignment Sheet in the Trust document, and then add the item to the assignment sheet when the transfer is approved?
Thanks!
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Re: ATF/NFA Trust Trouble
I added one of my pistols to my trust as the first item to validate it.
While reading that link, I came across something that caught my attention. Is it true that if you call to check the status of your transfer, it delays the transfer?
While reading that link, I came across something that caught my attention. Is it true that if you call to check the status of your transfer, it delays the transfer?
It's not what you have; it's what you know.
Re: ATF/NFA Trust Trouble
no not trueSupradedupra wrote:I added one of my pistols to my trust as the first item to validate it.
While reading that link, I came across something that caught my attention. Is it true that if you call to check the status of your transfer, it delays the transfer?
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Re: ATF/NFA Trust Trouble
A trust must have proeprty in it to be valid in Texas (and this is generalyl true for all trusts in all states).
It is not true that it delayes your approval if you call to check the status. I tell all of my clients and customers to call after 3.5 months.
It is not true that it delayes your approval if you call to check the status. I tell all of my clients and customers to call after 3.5 months.
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Re: ATF/NFA Trust Trouble
Can the schedule A be a simple inventory sheet of the trusts assets that is signed by the trustee? Or must it be a special form?
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Re: ATF/NFA Trust Trouble
Not sure, but mine is a simple inventory sheet that I print from a spreadsheet and it's served me well.slackercruster wrote:Can the schedule A be a simple inventory sheet of the trusts assets that is signed by the trustee? Or must it be a special form?
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