Tungsten as a Baffle Material in rifle suppressors
Tungsten as a Baffle Material in rifle suppressors
So tungsten is known for its high resistance to heat and abrasion as well as its density. Other than the excess weight, what are your thoughts about using this material in rifle suppressor baffles, in place of, say, inconel?
Thanks,
Lava
Thanks,
Lava
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Re: Tungsten as a Baffle Material in rifle suppressors
Tungsten is also known for being brittle. Probably not the best plan.
Re: Tungsten as a Baffle Material in rifle suppressors
Please elaborateshockbottle wrote:Tungsten is also known for being brittle. Probably not the best plan.
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Re: Tungsten as a Baffle Material in rifle suppressors
I suppose if you could get pure elemental Tungsten, it isn't all that brittle. Sourcing it is going to be fun as most of what's available as "pure" is "99.5% commercially pure" sintered material.
Most of the time tungsten-containing (or not) steel alloys are so much better overall there's not much point.
http://chemistry.about.com/od/elementfa ... olfram.htm
Most of the time tungsten-containing (or not) steel alloys are so much better overall there's not much point.
http://chemistry.about.com/od/elementfa ... olfram.htm
Re: Tungsten as a Baffle Material in rifle suppressors
All I can say is HEAVY.
Re: Tungsten as a Baffle Material in rifle suppressors
Tungsten is brittle, heavy, and it makes Inconel look like Brass as far as machining goes. You'd have to mold/sinter it. And you'd run the risk of shattering a baffle if you dropped the can. I'd also think you may shatter it from the shockwave of the projectile/powder. Though I haven't looked into it that far due to the requirement of Sintering, and the weight.
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Re: Tungsten as a Baffle Material in rifle suppressors
If you are going to go through the trouble of sintering anything, it might as well be a cobalt-chromium alloy like stellite.
There's a reason GE has been using it for jet nozzles for years.
There's a reason GE has been using it for jet nozzles for years.
Re: Tungsten as a Baffle Material in rifle suppressors
Point taken. I'll stick to Inconel.
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Re: Tungsten as a Baffle Material in rifle suppressors
I think Gunny had the idea of using stellite welding rod as a surface treatment.{hard facing} I don't know if its economical or available locally.57fairlane wrote:If you are going to go through the trouble of sintering anything, it might as well be a cobalt-chromium alloy like stellite.
There's a reason GE has been using it for jet nozzles for years.
Different alloys can be used as bore sleeves to increase life of suppressors in FA use.The heat finds the thinnest weakest part and erodes that first and then the whole stack goes in a belch of sparkly molten metal.The good news is the bore liners normally survive.
The only reason after 243 years the government now wants to disarm you is they intend to do something you would shoot them for!
http://www.silencertalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=79895
http://www.silencertalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=79895
Re: Tungsten as a Baffle Material in rifle suppressors
Wheels turning......How about automated Spray Welding the blast faces? Most likely not cost effective.....Capt. Link. wrote:I think Gunny had the idea of using stellite welding rod as a surface treatment.{hard facing} I don't know if its economical or available locally.57fairlane wrote:If you are going to go through the trouble of sintering anything, it might as well be a cobalt-chromium alloy like stellite.
There's a reason GE has been using it for jet nozzles for years.
Different alloys can be used as bore sleeves to increase life of suppressors in FA use.The heat finds the thinnest weakest part and erodes that first and then the whole stack goes in a belch of sparkly molten metal.The good news is the bore liners normally survive.
Re: Tungsten as a Baffle Material in rifle suppressors
Hi, hope you guy don't mind if I comment but, has anyone used ceramic, it's fairly light and is very heat resistant. Merrlin
Re: Tungsten as a Baffle Material in rifle suppressors
It just takes $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$!Merrlin wrote:Hi, hope you guy don't mind if I comment but, has anyone used ceramic, it's fairly light and is very heat resistant. Merrlin
How do you perceive the manufacturing of ceramic baffles?
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Re: Tungsten as a Baffle Material in rifle suppressors
I was going to hard face some baffles but I had no way of grinding the bore if it was occluded by the hard facing
Keep calm, and suppress on
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Re: Tungsten as a Baffle Material in rifle suppressors
The same way ceramic armor plates are made. Moulded and baked or sintered until hard. Then ground.hotbrass wrote:How do you perceive the manufacturing of ceramic baffles?Merrlin wrote:Hi, hope you guy don't mind if I comment but, has anyone used ceramic, it's fairly light and is very heat resistant. Merrlin
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cermet
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ceramic_armor
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trauma_plate#Ceramic
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Small_Arm ... ive_Insert
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silencertalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=135314
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Re: Tungsten as a Baffle Material in rifle suppressors
Yeah, that $200 tax stamp is starting to look real cheap compared to the $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ it would cost to make one baffle.whiterussian1974 wrote:The same way ceramic armor plates are made. Moulded and baked or sintered until hard. Then ground.hotbrass wrote:How do you perceive the manufacturing of ceramic baffles?Merrlin wrote:Hi, hope you guy don't mind if I comment but, has anyone used ceramic, it's fairly light and is very heat resistant. Merrlin
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cermet
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ceramic_armor
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trauma_plate#Ceramic
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Small_Arm ... ive_Insert
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Re: Tungsten as a Baffle Material in rifle suppressors
wire EDMChimeraPrecision wrote:I was going to hard face some baffles but I had no way of grinding the bore if it was occluded by the hard facing
Re: Tungsten as a Baffle Material in rifle suppressors
Grinding is not the hard part.57fairlane wrote:wire EDMChimeraPrecision wrote:I was going to hard face some baffles but I had no way of grinding the bore if it was occluded by the hard facing
Stellite facing is not to difficult, TIG wire and rods are available.
link is to a page that is NOT in english but pictures explain a lot.
http://www.cnc.info.pl/topics56/szlifow ... t26544.htm
Gunny
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Re: Tungsten as a Baffle Material in rifle suppressors
That would be preferable. If you have access to such a wonderful piece of machinery57fairlane wrote:wire EDMChimeraPrecision wrote:I was going to hard face some baffles but I had no way of grinding the bore if it was occluded by the hard facing
Keep calm, and suppress on
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Re: Tungsten as a Baffle Material in rifle suppressors
Hey now,ChimeraPrecision wrote:That would be preferable. If you have access to such a wonderful piece of machinery57fairlane wrote:wire EDMChimeraPrecision wrote:I was going to hard face some baffles but I had no way of grinding the bore if it was occluded by the hard facing
if you have the $$$ for DMLS baffles made of stellite you surely could afford someone to EDM them?
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Re: Tungsten as a Baffle Material in rifle suppressors
+p+57fairlane wrote: if you have the $$$ for DMLS baffles made of stellite you surely could afford someone to EDM them?
The only reason after 243 years the government now wants to disarm you is they intend to do something you would shoot them for!
http://www.silencertalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=79895
http://www.silencertalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=79895
Re: Tungsten as a Baffle Material in rifle suppressors
I've pondered the validity of cladding baffle surfaces but haven't actually done it. GTAW welding would likely put too much heat into the part causing excessive distortion. My shop uses lasers to apply Stellite #6, cobalt alloys and other wear-heat-corrosive resistant alloys to many different base metals. A SS baffle would be no problem to surface with whatever material you choose, using lasers.
This is the face of a punch that is 1/2" in diameter to give you some idea of how small we can go. The build-up is +.010" to .012" thick of M-2 tool steel.
Going around a diameter is no problem either. This is a build-up around a diameter on a tapered section. We applied +.020" per side of hi-temp 321 SS to a solid copper core.
This is the face of a punch that is 1/2" in diameter to give you some idea of how small we can go. The build-up is +.010" to .012" thick of M-2 tool steel.
Going around a diameter is no problem either. This is a build-up around a diameter on a tapered section. We applied +.020" per side of hi-temp 321 SS to a solid copper core.
https://www.facebook.com/wickedweapons
Re: Tungsten as a Baffle Material in rifle suppressors
"Wicked"
Laser cladding is fantastic, you would not even need to grind the face as this is such a fine structure.
Just cost wise, laser will be more expensive and takes a bit longer to do than TIG
With TIG you can face the part and than machine the backside, that way distortion is not such a big problem.
I use laser welding for the Ti cans I make. Fully laser weld the core, than machine the part again, heat-shrink the tube, weld it and fill in the spots with laser welding.
Machine the outside and endproduct is super strong with no EDM needed for the bore.
Just need to start saving more to get my own laser welder with 4th axes, worked the machine a few times and boy is that a joy to work with.
However, I really do like how my own shop made TIG welding lathe with backing gas true center spindle, safes lots of time and gives fantastic welds. Great for all my non Ti cans.
For Ti its just to much heat buildup with the TIG setup, I would have to EDM the bore after that way.
Gunny
Laser cladding is fantastic, you would not even need to grind the face as this is such a fine structure.
Just cost wise, laser will be more expensive and takes a bit longer to do than TIG
With TIG you can face the part and than machine the backside, that way distortion is not such a big problem.
I use laser welding for the Ti cans I make. Fully laser weld the core, than machine the part again, heat-shrink the tube, weld it and fill in the spots with laser welding.
Machine the outside and endproduct is super strong with no EDM needed for the bore.
Just need to start saving more to get my own laser welder with 4th axes, worked the machine a few times and boy is that a joy to work with.
However, I really do like how my own shop made TIG welding lathe with backing gas true center spindle, safes lots of time and gives fantastic welds. Great for all my non Ti cans.
For Ti its just to much heat buildup with the TIG setup, I would have to EDM the bore after that way.
Gunny
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Re: Tungsten as a Baffle Material in rifle suppressors
I think most of the responses about tungsten are confusing the metal itself with tungsten carbide. Tungsten carbide is extremely hard, brittle, and nigh impossible to machine.
Pure elemental tungsten is around 30 HRC, you can cut it with a file. If it's pure enough, it should be ductile, not brittle. It has the second highest melting temperature of any element, next to carbon, and the highest tensile strength of any metal in pure form. Consensus is it machines kind of like angry cast iron: certainly not easy, but you can do it without anything too special. It would make excellent baffles, perhaps the best, if it wasn't OUTRAGEOUSLY HEAVY! It's something like 60% more dense than lead. There's no good way to make a reasonably light can out of it. A washer-type blast baffle is the most I would call reasonable, and it would be pretty sweet. I'd use a tungsten alloy rather than pure if I were going that route.
Pure elemental tungsten is around 30 HRC, you can cut it with a file. If it's pure enough, it should be ductile, not brittle. It has the second highest melting temperature of any element, next to carbon, and the highest tensile strength of any metal in pure form. Consensus is it machines kind of like angry cast iron: certainly not easy, but you can do it without anything too special. It would make excellent baffles, perhaps the best, if it wasn't OUTRAGEOUSLY HEAVY! It's something like 60% more dense than lead. There's no good way to make a reasonably light can out of it. A washer-type blast baffle is the most I would call reasonable, and it would be pretty sweet. I'd use a tungsten alloy rather than pure if I were going that route.
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Re: Tungsten as a Baffle Material in rifle suppressors
Dunno about the others, but I meant Tungsten the metal, not the carbide.mysticofjesus wrote:I think most of the responses about tungsten are confusing the metal itself with tungsten carbide. Tungsten carbide is extremely hard, brittle, and nigh impossible to machine.
Pure elemental tungsten is around 30 HRC, you can cut it with a file. If it's pure enough, it should be ductile, not brittle. It has the second highest melting temperature of any element, next to carbon, and the highest tensile strength of any metal in pure form. Consensus is it machines kind of like angry cast iron: certainly not easy, but you can do it without anything too special. It would make excellent baffles, perhaps the best, if it wasn't OUTRAGEOUSLY HEAVY! It's something like 60% more dense than lead. There's no good way to make a reasonably light can out of it. A washer-type blast baffle is the most I would call reasonable, and it would be pretty sweet. I'd use a tungsten alloy rather than pure if I were going that route.
I've machined it in various forms. It's not a lot of fun as most of what's available is sintered and chips easily (not unlike cast iron) because it breaks along the sinter lines. Real, solid non-sintered pure metal is not easy to come by in the sizes needed for baffles last I looked, despite what various online sellers claim.
Tungsten-containing alloys (ie: steel) are far better suited. If you absolutely must have Tungsten-faced baffles, sputter some on after manufacture. Or maybe just go ahead and coat the baffles with polycrystalline diamond instead. Easier to clean and more street bling factor.
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Re: Tungsten as a Baffle Material in rifle suppressors
Yeah, I know you meant the metal . I'm actually not familiar with any steels that contain much tungsten other than the high speed steels, which alloys are you referring to?shockbottle wrote:Dunno about the others, but I meant Tungsten the metal, not the carbide.mysticofjesus wrote:I think most of the responses about tungsten are confusing the metal itself with tungsten carbide. Tungsten carbide is extremely hard, brittle, and nigh impossible to machine.
Pure elemental tungsten is around 30 HRC, you can cut it with a file. If it's pure enough, it should be ductile, not brittle. It has the second highest melting temperature of any element, next to carbon, and the highest tensile strength of any metal in pure form. Consensus is it machines kind of like angry cast iron: certainly not easy, but you can do it without anything too special. It would make excellent baffles, perhaps the best, if it wasn't OUTRAGEOUSLY HEAVY! It's something like 60% more dense than lead. There's no good way to make a reasonably light can out of it. A washer-type blast baffle is the most I would call reasonable, and it would be pretty sweet. I'd use a tungsten alloy rather than pure if I were going that route.
I've machined it in various forms. It's not a lot of fun as most of what's available is sintered and chips easily (not unlike cast iron) because it breaks along the sinter lines. Real, solid non-sintered pure metal is not easy to come by in the sizes needed for baffles last I looked, despite what various online sellers claim.
Tungsten-containing alloys (ie: steel) are far better suited. If you absolutely must have Tungsten-faced baffles, sputter some on after manufacture. Or maybe just go ahead and coat the baffles with polycrystalline diamond instead. Easier to clean and more street bling factor.
I've often thought about having baffles PVD coated...