Every where else I try to talk about this I get treated like some kind of criminal. Generally dealing with kids or hipsters printing their own toys, action figures, fashion accessories or what have you whos only experience with silencers is what they see movies or call of duty. Everyone just assumes they are illegal...
So my evil, devious, completely legal plan is to register 1 or 2 serial numbers.
One SN will be for straight up 3D printed top to bottom plastic 22LR silencer that gets cut in half down the length and put in a wood chipper or turned into plastic confetti by being put on a 5.56 after I am done with it or when it becomes clogged. Then I just print a new copy or try to improve it and print a new version.
I think this item will be more fun and entertaining. I can see how small I can go and still be effective, or how light or thin I can go with out it breaking apart, how tight I can make the bullet to baffle clearance before I get a baffle strike or maybe how quiet one can be with out worrying about how fat it is.
The second one, if I feel like coughing up another $200 will be an empty aluminum body or "can" that I fill with my choice of plastic, or metal "rocket nozzles" or big plastic monolith. This second one would be a more traditional, serviceable design with some plastic parts that may be consumable.
I would like to build my own so I am the manufacturer and I can repair, service, modify, destroy and remake them at any time and never have to worry about sending them off.
Has anyone tried anything like this?
Could I fill out a form 1 and put the length as say "6 inches +/- 1 inch" since there will be multiple generations of the all printed version?
(I have only ever done SBS on form 1 until now)
I am looking at the makerbot mini to make all my little parts and stuff.
Warning, if anyone just happens upon this in a google search or whatever and if you are in the US and you print an unregistered silencer or a part of a silencer you are typically looking at 1 to 3 years of federal prison time, and a bunch of fines when caught for the first offence even if you are not doing anything against the law with it and even if its only for a BB or pellet gun. So just register the dam thing and pay the $200, it will be a lot cheaper than a hiring a lawyer. Or don't bother with them at all.
3D Printing of 22LR supressor
3D Printing of 22LR supressor
So much has changed since my last form 1
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Re: 3D Printing of 22LR supressor
You were good until this point.748 wrote:This second one would be a more traditional, serviceable design with some plastic parts that may be consumable.
I would like to build my own so I am the manufacturer and I can repair, service, modify, destroy and remake them at any time and never have to worry about sending them off.
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Re: 3D Printing of 22LR supressor
Doesn't work that way.748 wrote: I would like to build my own so I am the manufacturer and I can repair, service, modify, destroy and remake them at any time and never have to worry about sending them off.
http://www.titleii.com/bardwell/atf_letter66.txt
If an individual made one of these parts, even for use as a
replacement part, the individual would be making a silencer. Under
the provisions of the National Firearms Act, any person must apply
for and receive permission to make a silencer and pay the making
tax for each silencer made. This would require the individual
owner to file an ATF Form 1 application for each silencer part to
be made with the payment of $200.00 for each application prior to
making any replacement part.
Re: 3D Printing of 22LR supressor
I thought this is where the plan went awry. The implication is that when it is no longer serviceable, the OP would destroy it and replace with another printing of the same SN.748 wrote: One SN will be for straight up 3D printed top to bottom plastic 22LR silencer that gets cut in half down the length and put in a wood chipper or turned into plastic confetti by being put on a 5.56 after I am done with it or when it becomes clogged. Then I just print a new copy or try to improve it and print a new version.
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Re: 3D Printing of 22LR supressor
You have a point. I took it as, this is where stamp #2 comes into play. Shame on me for assumingJC in SC wrote:I thought this is where the plan went awry. The implication is that when it is no longer serviceable, the OP would destroy it and replace with another printing of the same SN.748 wrote: One SN will be for straight up 3D printed top to bottom plastic 22LR silencer that gets cut in half down the length and put in a wood chipper or turned into plastic confetti by being put on a 5.56 after I am done with it or when it becomes clogged. Then I just print a new copy or try to improve it and print a new version.
Would you make a threaded insert, to be molded into the print, for the muzzle threading?
I guess, if T.I.R. is minimal, plastic threads may be enough for 22, no?
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Re: 3D Printing of 22LR supressor
With a good printer you could print undersized threads then run a tap through it. That should keep it in place well enough. I'd give the baffle bores some extra clearance.T-Rex wrote:
Would you make a threaded insert, to be molded into the print, for the muzzle threading?
I guess, if T.I.R. is minimal, plastic threads may be enough for 22, no?
Due to the unfortunate regulatory issues, I don't see much of a place for 3d printed plastic cans in the US. They're not going to be durable enough to make the tax and paperwork worth it.
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Re: 3D Printing of 22LR supressor
I know I am only allowed to have one of each.
Any part would be destroyed before being copied or remade. No blanks laying around, no spare parts, no stack of test parts. With the 3D printer I will have no need to keep spares around, I will save digital copies of each part, completely eliminating the need for duplicate physical parts.
If the threads tear off with 22LR then I guess it will be used with 22short or CB or make a metal bushing or base.
Any part would be destroyed before being copied or remade. No blanks laying around, no spare parts, no stack of test parts. With the 3D printer I will have no need to keep spares around, I will save digital copies of each part, completely eliminating the need for duplicate physical parts.
If the threads tear off with 22LR then I guess it will be used with 22short or CB or make a metal bushing or base.
So much has changed since my last form 1
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Re: 3D Printing of 22LR supressor
What you're proposing is illegal.748 wrote: Any part would be destroyed before being copied or remade.
Unless you are a licensed Manufacturer, you get ONE SHOT at building a suppressor, per stamp.
There is no, "Oops, I should have done this, let me fire up the printer and make another."
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Re: 3D Printing of 22LR supressor
I'm gonna share this link AGAIN.748 wrote:I know I am only allowed to have one of each.
Any part would be destroyed before being copied or remade. No blanks laying around, no spare parts, no stack of test parts. With the 3D printer I will have no need to keep spares around, I will save digital copies of each part, completely eliminating the need for duplicate physical parts.
If the threads tear off with 22LR then I guess it will be used with 22short or CB or make a metal bushing or base.
http://www.titleii.com/bardwell/atf_letter66.txt
But this time, I'm gonna quote the whole letter:
Emphasis mine.Dear Mr. Bardwell:
This is in response to your letter of June 28, 1999, regarding the
repair of a silencer by an individual owner. You ask "whether it
is lawful for the owner of a lawfully possessed silencer ... to
repair that silencer himself, by replacing unserialized internal
components with new components of his own making." You cited the
replacement of a worn out plastic "wipe" or damaged baffle as an
example.
As you are aware, the terms "firearm silencer" and "firearm
muffler" mean any device for silencing, muffling, or diminishing
the report of a portable firearm, including any combination of
parts, designed or redesigned, and intended for use in assembling
or fabricating a firearm silencer or firearm muffler, and any part
intended only for use in such assembly or fabrication. Thus,
certain internal components, intended only for use in a silencer,
are silencers as defined.
If an individual made one of these parts, even for use as a
replacement part, the individual would be making a silencer. Under
the provisions of the National Firearms Act, any person must apply
for and receive permission to make a silencer and pay the making
tax for each silencer made. This would require the individual
owner to file an ATF Form 1 application for each silencer part to
be made with the payment of $200.00 for each application prior to
making any replacement part.
In regard to the two parts in your cited example, we consider a
baffle to be a silencer, but a wipe, which is usually nothing more
than a rubber or plastic disc with a hole in it, is generally not
considered to be a silencer. Thus an individual owner could
replace a wipe.
- 2 -
Mr. Bardwell
For the replacement of a part or parts that meet the definition of
a silencer, the individual owner would need to arrange for the
transfer of the silencer to a Federal firearms licensee who is
qualified to manufacture silencers.
If you have questions about the classification of other silencer
components, please provide us with a description of them or should
any additional information be needed, please contact Gary Schiable
at (202) 927-8330.
Sincerely yours,
[signed]
Kent M. Cousins
Chief, National Firearms Act Branch
As a side note: Since you happen to be in Hampton, VA, we ought to take the stamps out to the range sometime.
Re: 3D Printing of 22LR supressor
Oh I need to update that I am no longer in Virginia.
A lot of stuff is blocked where I am, I could not open the link to that letter earlier.
But if that is the rules then those are the rules and only have one shot better make it count.
A lot of stuff is blocked where I am, I could not open the link to that letter earlier.
But if that is the rules then those are the rules and only have one shot better make it count.
So much has changed since my last form 1
Re: 3D Printing of 22LR supressor
If you just want to play with suppressors and your 3D printer, build a 22 cal airgun suppressor? IIRC (been discussed here many times, read up on it) airgun only builds are not federally regulated, so build and rebuild all you want. Just do NOT build a 22lr suppressor and call it a 22 airgun suppressor. Think non-standard (for firearms) mounts, pinned installs, etc. to make sure it is really used on and made for airguns.
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Re: 3D Printing of 22LR supressor
Was there a rule change?cdhknives wrote:If you just want to play with suppressors and your 3D printer, build a 22 cal airgun suppressor? IIRC (been discussed here many times, read up on it) airgun only builds are not federally regulated, so build and rebuild all you want. Just do NOT build a 22lr suppressor and call it a 22 airgun suppressor. Think non-standard (for firearms) mounts, pinned installs, etc. to make sure it is really used on and made for airguns.
Airgun and Paintball silencers are regulated devices, in the US.
From here:
"The terms “firearm silencer” and “firearm muffler” mean any device for silencing, muffling, or diminishing the report of a portable firearm, including any combination of parts, designed or redesigned, and intended for use in assembling or fabricating a firearm silencer or firearm muffler, and any part intended only for use in such assembly or fabrication.
Numerous paintball and airgun silencers tested by ATF’s Firearms Technology Branch have been determined to be, by nature of their design and function, firearm silencers. Because silencers are NFA weapons, an individual wishing to manufacture or transfer such a silencer must receive prior approval from ATF and pay the required tax."
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Re: 3D Printing of 22LR supressor
Don't know about any rule change, but http://tko22.com has been making and selling airgun silencers for a while and I've not heard about any legal issues arising for the many airgunners who've bought them. Even Canadians. Haven't bought one myself as they're a bit small and don't suppress quite as well as the stuff I build, but for the low price and apparently solid, lightweight, quality build, they seem a very solid value for those without machining skills. I know one guy who has been shooting through the 6.5" model for about a year with a 29fpe PCP and the thing is really quiet considering how tiny it is. And his groups are small and consistent, even at 75 yards, the same with or without it mounted.
I'm of course not advocating breaking your laws. Only saying that TKO22 and others (AirForce, for a rather prominent example in the USA) are selling baffles and suppressors for airguns which would certainly work on a .22lr firearm, at least for a little while, and no one in an official position seems to care.
I'm of course not advocating breaking your laws. Only saying that TKO22 and others (AirForce, for a rather prominent example in the USA) are selling baffles and suppressors for airguns which would certainly work on a .22lr firearm, at least for a little while, and no one in an official position seems to care.
Re: 3D Printing of 22LR supressor
IANAL, do your own research, etc. etc. etc. My understanding is that if a suppressor is capable of dual use, it is regulated as a firearm. An air rifle only silencer is not regulated. It is all in how you define "airgun only". Integrals are obviously one path. Making one with threads not commonly used on firearm suppressors would be another IMO.
Just because 'numerous tested airgun and paintball silencers' were also compatible with a firearm does not mean all airgun silencers are regulated or else the integral airgun silencers on the market currently would require paperwork.
We all know the ATF takes a stance on the near side of every fuzzy grey regulatory line in the sand. Proceed with due caution, but I think it's do-able.
Just because 'numerous tested airgun and paintball silencers' were also compatible with a firearm does not mean all airgun silencers are regulated or else the integral airgun silencers on the market currently would require paperwork.
We all know the ATF takes a stance on the near side of every fuzzy grey regulatory line in the sand. Proceed with due caution, but I think it's do-able.
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Re: 3D Printing of 22LR supressor
The airgun guys are currently operating with relative impunity because a few years ago a felon was charged with possessing a bunch of silencers. His defense was that they where made for airguns. The court found in his favor, which set a precedent saying that it's the intent and not the capability that makes it a firearm or airgun suppressor.
For all I know this has since been overturned, but that was the last thing I read about it.
For all I know this has since been overturned, but that was the last thing I read about it.
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Re: 3D Printing of 22LR supressor
Wow, that guy was either seriously lawyered up or incredibly lucky, or both.
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Re: 3D Printing of 22LR supressor
Did it go past the trial stage? IE: is there published case law regarding this? If so, that would be fantastic!Tony M. wrote:The airgun guys are currently operating with relative impunity because a few years ago a felon was charged with possessing a bunch of silencers. His defense was that they where made for airguns. The court found in his favor, which set a precedent saying that it's the intent and not the capability that makes it a firearm or airgun suppressor.
For all I know this has since been overturned, but that was the last thing I read about it.
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Re: 3D Printing of 22LR supressor
Maybe this one. If not, good info either way.
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