Spiral Baffle Design....yay or nay?
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Spiral Baffle Design....yay or nay?
Hey guys, Waiting on my form 1 to come back sometime in the next couple months, just FYI
So until it comes back, I'm stuck in the CAD phase. While looking up baffle designs, and reading as much as possible, I think I have an idea for a baffle design, but have not seen anyone make anything similar.
I am a machinist professionally, I DO have a lathe, a CNC mill, and it has a CNC rotary index head.
If I suggest I CAN cut it, rest assured I have modeled the toolpaths necessary to check to see if its possible.
So, on to the baffle design. Imagine a can, with stacked baffles, not monocore.
Each baffle being .75" thick. Each disk would be flat on one side, and instead of a bowl shape like a "freeze plug" style baffle, there would be a spiral, starting at the bore hole for the bullet, expanding outward towards the tube.
Using this design, each baffle will have about a .1875 wide path, almost 4.5" long, curled up around the bore hole. Also, the path could have small serrations, like a knife, facing the away from the tube, so when the gas starts to flow out and depressurize, there will buy hundreds of tiny pockets slowing it down.
I would attach a pic of the drawing, and a rendering to show exactly how its cut, but I cant see how to attach.
Any pros have any input?
So until it comes back, I'm stuck in the CAD phase. While looking up baffle designs, and reading as much as possible, I think I have an idea for a baffle design, but have not seen anyone make anything similar.
I am a machinist professionally, I DO have a lathe, a CNC mill, and it has a CNC rotary index head.
If I suggest I CAN cut it, rest assured I have modeled the toolpaths necessary to check to see if its possible.
So, on to the baffle design. Imagine a can, with stacked baffles, not monocore.
Each baffle being .75" thick. Each disk would be flat on one side, and instead of a bowl shape like a "freeze plug" style baffle, there would be a spiral, starting at the bore hole for the bullet, expanding outward towards the tube.
Using this design, each baffle will have about a .1875 wide path, almost 4.5" long, curled up around the bore hole. Also, the path could have small serrations, like a knife, facing the away from the tube, so when the gas starts to flow out and depressurize, there will buy hundreds of tiny pockets slowing it down.
I would attach a pic of the drawing, and a rendering to show exactly how its cut, but I cant see how to attach.
Any pros have any input?
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- Capt. Link.
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Re: Spiral Baffle Design....yay or nay?
Nay....spiral designs of all sorts have been tried over the years without success.A good baffle will strip HP gas away from the bore line and retard its continued flow forward to the next baffle.
-CL
-CL
The only reason after 243 years the government now wants to disarm you is they intend to do something you would shoot them for!
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Re: Spiral Baffle Design....yay or nay?
Agreed. There's merit in using a helix in certain applications and in very specific ways, but tight coils or attempting to direct the gas into a spiral perpendicular to the laminar flow has been tried with less than stellar results.Capt. Link. wrote:Nay....spiral designs of all sorts have been tried over the years without success.A good baffle will strip HP gas away from the bore line and retard its continued flow forward to the next baffle.
-CL
FFL07/02SOT Gunsmith & Machinist
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Re: Spiral Baffle Design....yay or nay?
Wow. I'm honestly a little surprised....lol
I couldn't really find any info about the topic, I was hoping to be innovative. Oh well.
Is there a book I can read or something? So I don't end up asking 500 stupid questions?
I couldn't really find any info about the topic, I was hoping to be innovative. Oh well.
Is there a book I can read or something? So I don't end up asking 500 stupid questions?
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Re: Spiral Baffle Design....yay or nay?
There are a lot of players in the game with lots of money to throw at R&D, and the basic technology has been around for over a century. The name of the game these days is chasing a few Bels (as in 1/10s of dBs) and minimizing weight while making them tough enough for a paratrooper to empty an entire belt of ammunition through them and then drop the thing while still 100 ft off the ground, pick it up after landing and go save the day.kutworksinc wrote: I was hoping to be innovative. Oh well.
Books, eh, not much. But you have the cumulative knowledge of this board and others. Try searching what you want to know here and elsewhere, and if you can't find your answer, make a thread about it!kutworksinc wrote: Is there a book I can read or something? So I don't end up asking 500 stupid questions?
FFL07/02SOT Gunsmith & Machinist
Re: Spiral Baffle Design....yay or nay?
People seem to like Paulson's books try looking at The Alan C. Paulson book Silencer History And Performance Vol.2kutworksinc wrote:...
Is there a book I can read or something? So I don't end up asking 500 stupid questions?
Other people may chime in with some other books they remember.
Other than that look at the link to Wicked's completed Form 1 thread in my signature and you'll find a lot of detailed info on various designs, I'm sure there's a spiral in there somewhere.
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Re: Spiral Baffle Design....yay or nay?
There are no stupid questions.
Of course, if you do think of one, I'm sure someone here will tell you it is.
Seriously, don't be afraid to ask a question here. You may get varying answers, but no one will make fun of you for it. You'd be surprised how many times someone thought they were asking a stupid question and it lead to really nice breakthroughs.
I always wanted to try something similar to what you're doing but basically would be more like a suppressor within a suppressor.
Basically the inner suppressor would be stacked baffles like most "normal suppressors" while the outer suppressor sleeve would be ported from the expansion chamber into a channel that was shaped like a large fat course thread screw so the gas would make a cork screw path around the outer tube. Every so often, there would be ports that would direct some of that gas back into the inner suppressor and across the flow near the bore that would kind of block some of the inner gas from having a direct path through the bore.
But, sigh.
See, I'm sure someone will come along shortly and tell me how stupid of an idea that is.
Of course, if you do think of one, I'm sure someone here will tell you it is.
Seriously, don't be afraid to ask a question here. You may get varying answers, but no one will make fun of you for it. You'd be surprised how many times someone thought they were asking a stupid question and it lead to really nice breakthroughs.
I always wanted to try something similar to what you're doing but basically would be more like a suppressor within a suppressor.
Basically the inner suppressor would be stacked baffles like most "normal suppressors" while the outer suppressor sleeve would be ported from the expansion chamber into a channel that was shaped like a large fat course thread screw so the gas would make a cork screw path around the outer tube. Every so often, there would be ports that would direct some of that gas back into the inner suppressor and across the flow near the bore that would kind of block some of the inner gas from having a direct path through the bore.
But, sigh.
See, I'm sure someone will come along shortly and tell me how stupid of an idea that is.
I don't care what your chart says
- T-Rex
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Re: Spiral Baffle Design....yay or nay?
There are patents from the very early 1900's, for silencers, which employ some form of spiral geometry. Tons of Russian designs have explored this avenue as well. The science is sound. It just happens to work much better with lower pressure continuous flows rather than hi-pressure impulse.
Id say the most recent design would be by OSS.
Reading through Wicked's compilation should be of great benefit.
Id say the most recent design would be by OSS.
Reading through Wicked's compilation should be of great benefit.
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Re: Spiral Baffle Design....yay or nay?
As a famous physicist who worked on the Manhattan Project saidkutworksinc wrote:Wow. I'm honestly a little surprised....lol
I couldn't really find any info about the topic, I was hoping to be innovative. Oh well.
Is there a book I can read or something? So I don't end up asking 500 stupid questions?
in 1956 physics course:
"There are no stupid questions. Only (stupid)
limited minds that ridicule the mechanism for discovering of new approaches". -
Victor "Viki" F. Weisskopf MIT.
"After World War II, Weisskopf joined the physics faculty at MIT, ultimately becoming head of the department.
At MIT, he encouraged students to ask questions, and, even in undergraduate physics courses,
taught his students to think like physicists, not just to learn physics. He was a memorable teacher."
Unique design: Paulson, et al* p. 268 X-Ray of South African Silencer.
Like rare Parker Hale MM1 with just an internal snorkel in empty tube.
Books:
"Silencers - Principles and Evaluations" Department of the Army
Frankford Arsenal Report R-1896 Aug 1968
*"Silencer - History & Performance Vol 2 " Pausdon, Parker, Koklas
Palidan Press 2002
Re: Spiral Baffle Design....yay or nay?
Unfortunately, when Paladin Press went belly up, so did the availability of both of Al Paulson's two books as well as the silencer patent book by N.R. Parker.
[url=http://militarysignatures.com][img]http://militarysignatures.com/signatures/member1236.png[/img][/url]
Re: Spiral Baffle Design....yay or nay?
jreinke wrote:Unfortunately, when Paladin Press went belly up, so did the availability of both of Al Paulson's two books as well as the silencer patent book by N.R. Parker.
What dispiriting news!
Thank you for update.
Maybe Alibris used book finder might have
some copies.
Drat.
Re: Spiral Baffle Design....yay or nay?
<< https://www.alibris.com/booksearch?keyw ... &hs=Submit >>
The three silencer books by Paulson seem to have almost tripled in value.
The for Dover edition to be created.
"On June 5, 2017, Peder Lund died suddenly while on vacation in Finland,
and it was decided to close Paladin Press, with no new orders being accepted,
and existing orders being honored until 31 January, 2018.[6][13][5]" - WIKI
The three silencer books by Paulson seem to have almost tripled in value.
The for Dover edition to be created.
"On June 5, 2017, Peder Lund died suddenly while on vacation in Finland,
and it was decided to close Paladin Press, with no new orders being accepted,
and existing orders being honored until 31 January, 2018.[6][13][5]" - WIKI
Re: Spiral Baffle Design....yay or nay?
Yeah, that happened a while back but I think some of their more notable publications can be found on the interwebs with some effort.jreinke wrote:Unfortunately, when Paladin Press went belly up, so did the availability of both of Al Paulson's two books as well as the silencer patent book by N.R. Parker.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDtd2jNIwAU MUSAFAR!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8CrOL-ydFMI This is Water DavidW
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Re: Spiral Baffle Design....yay or nay?
Not up on the latest greatest baffle designs but this was perhaps one of the only commercially successful spiral baffle designs that I know of. It was created by Greg at GSL Technology (part of Gemtech back in the day). It was invented back in the 80's.
This was a baffle that was talked about but never seen back in the day.
This was a baffle that was talked about but never seen back in the day.
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Re: Spiral Baffle Design....yay or nay?
I've made the baffles patented by Greg Latka and that is not one of them.I have made variations based upon his baffle design including spacers made with a screw exterior but have not coupled them with a frustoconical cone.Building his helical free flow baffles on manual machines is a very labor intensive project and I hope to re-visit my hybrid design when the HPA passesctm wrote:Not up on the latest greatest baffle designs but this was perhaps one of the only commercially successful spiral baffle designs that I know of. It was created by Greg at GSL Technology (part of Gemtech back in the day). It was invented back in the 80's.
This was a baffle that was talked about but never seen back in the day.
https://patentimages.storage.googleapis ... 9512-1.png
Another inventor used Archimedes screw with success but never made them commercially.
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Lisle_carbine)
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archimedes%27_screw)
The only reason after 243 years the government now wants to disarm you is they intend to do something you would shoot them for!
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Re: Spiral Baffle Design....yay or nay?
A flow analysis might prove otherwise, but I'm going with that helix is far too tight to act as anything other than a wall with the high pressure, high velocity gasses in a firearm suppressor and the extremely limited window to channel them. IMO, that space is better used inside the cone & skirt or as a coaxial chamber.ctm wrote:Not up on the latest greatest baffle designs but this was perhaps one of the only commercially successful spiral baffle designs that I know of. It was created by Greg at GSL Technology (part of Gemtech back in the day). It was invented back in the 80's.
This was a baffle that was talked about but never seen back in the day.
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Re: Spiral Baffle Design....yay or nay?
Greg has used this to build a coaxial design.Others have used it but did not patent it....
https://patents.google.com/patent/US8991551B2/en
https://patents.google.com/patent/US8991551B2/en
The only reason after 243 years the government now wants to disarm you is they intend to do something you would shoot them for!
http://www.silencertalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=79895
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Re: Spiral Baffle Design....yay or nay?
CL, did you ever get to hear it while employing the perforated outer tube?Capt. Link. wrote:.
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Re: Spiral Baffle Design....yay or nay?
Are you saying that the baffle in the picture is not one made by Greg? If so, I would find that odd because the picture stems from an interview that Greg did with the Firearm blog in his factory and it was labeled as the hexical.Capt. Link. wrote:I've made the baffles patented by Greg Latka and that is not one of them.I have made variations based upon his baffle design including spacers made with a screw exterior but have not coupled them with a frustoconical cone.Building his helical free flow baffles on manual machines is a very labor intensive project and I hope to re-visit my hybrid design when the HPA passesctm wrote:Not up on the latest greatest baffle designs but this was perhaps one of the only commercially successful spiral baffle designs that I know of. It was created by Greg at GSL Technology (part of Gemtech back in the day). It was invented back in the 80's.
This was a baffle that was talked about but never seen back in the day.
https://patentimages.storage.googleapis ... 9512-1.png
Another inventor used Archimedes screw with success but never made them commercially.
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Lisle_carbine)
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archimedes%27_screw)
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Re: Spiral Baffle Design....yay or nay?
CThomas wrote: Are you saying that the baffle in the picture is not one made by Greg? If so, I would find that odd because the picture stems from an interview that Greg did with the Firearm blog in his factory and it was labeled as the hexical.
This design was patented in 2014 not the 1980s and his first patents dealing with helical baffles starts in the 1990's.Capt. Link. wrote:Greg has used this to build a coaxial design.Others have used it but did not patent it....
https://patents.google.com/patent/US8991551B2/en
T-rex I have never heard his new patent though it appears to be similar to what was called a Honey Hole in practice.
The only reason after 243 years the government now wants to disarm you is they intend to do something you would shoot them for!
http://www.silencertalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=79895
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Re: Spiral Baffle Design....yay or nay?
It was not said that it was patented in the 80's just that it was invented back in the 80's and that comes directly from Greg's mouth. Greg himself says that the helical (spiral) design was in fact patented in the 90's. You are getting caught up in variations of the helical as it evolved. For the purpose of this thread the reference to the baffle seems simply to be about the spiral design and not ports, variations etc because that is what the OP of the thread was inquiring about although he was referencing an internal spiral.Capt. Link. wrote:CThomas wrote: Are you saying that the baffle in the picture is not one made by Greg? If so, I would find that odd because the picture stems from an interview that Greg did with the Firearm blog in his factory and it was labeled as the hexical.This design was patented in 2014 not the 1980s and his first patents dealing with helical baffles starts in the 1990's.Capt. Link. wrote:Greg has used this to build a coaxial design.Others have used it but did not patent it....
https://patents.google.com/patent/US8991551B2/en
T-rex I have never heard his new patent though it appears to be similar to what was called a Honey Hole in practice.
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Re: Spiral Baffle Design....yay or nay?
As I said earlier, there are many spiral designs over the 100+ years of silencer manufacturing. It's also a proven concept for muffling engine and fan exhausts.
Circa 1908
1910
1919
Circa 1908
1910
1919
Last edited by T-Rex on Fri Oct 19, 2018 6:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Spiral Baffle Design....yay or nay?
T-Rex et al, thank you for the wonderful eye candy you presented.
Just the right infusion of hope that HPA will pass soon.
We all should give a standing Shout Out of thanks to Sen Mitch McConnel
for the successes he has navigated. Perhaps if we beseech him
loudly enough he will pass HPA during the upcoming Lame-Duck
session and add to his endearment from 'we despicables'.
Attach it to a major bill at the last minute ... we should have learned something from the
past 'hide the salami' way the DemoNrats* have passed things.
* Thank you Judge Jeanine Pirro on FOX.
Just the right infusion of hope that HPA will pass soon.
We all should give a standing Shout Out of thanks to Sen Mitch McConnel
for the successes he has navigated. Perhaps if we beseech him
loudly enough he will pass HPA during the upcoming Lame-Duck
session and add to his endearment from 'we despicables'.
Attach it to a major bill at the last minute ... we should have learned something from the
past 'hide the salami' way the DemoNrats* have passed things.
* Thank you Judge Jeanine Pirro on FOX.