What was rate of fire? 1 shot per second for the semis, full dumps for the full-auto ones? How long to fire 8 mags?GaLEO wrote:I actually participated in this tests. I shot the first 8 mags thru the can.
Our Gemtech G5 failed at 750 rounds.
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didn't time it.....1 round per second, reload, mag dump....I had to clear several FTE's during the shooting, so did RS....so it wasn't a steady bang bang bang....the extractor spring in the 416 we used needs to be replaced..
It was slower than the .mil test due to the clearing drills..
It was slower than the .mil test due to the clearing drills..
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I tried to keep the cadence that the military subjected our cans to (2 shots per second). I was not able to because of extracting problems in this 416, so the Gemtech had it easy by comparison often with long delays while we cleared the rifle.
Last edited by silencertalk on Thu Jun 07, 2007 6:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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+1 especially on the mag dumps..there were very few "real" mag dumps...most attempts suffered at least one FTE, most suffered two...rsilvers wrote:I tried to keep the cadence that the military subjected our cans to. I was not able to because of extracting problems in this 416, so the Gemtech had it easy by comparison.
Mr. Burns: This anonymous clan of slack-jawed troglodytes has cost me the election, and yet if I were to have them killed, I would be the one to go to jail. That's democracy for you.
Smithers: You are noble and poetic in defeat, sir.
Smithers: You are noble and poetic in defeat, sir.
Close enough info to what I was asking. thanks.GaLEO wrote:didn't time it.....1 round per second, reload, mag dump....I had to clear several FTE's during the shooting, so did RS....so it wasn't a steady bang bang bang....the extractor spring in the 416 we used needs to be replaced..
It was slower than the .mil test due to the clearing drills..
I'll give ya fifty bucks for it.Mongo wrote:[I have not posted a response like this about any competitors suppressor but I do think Gemtech has mislead people on the G%. Saying it has a inconel blast baffle is vastly different than a inconel collar on the first baffle. As a Gemtech can owner I now have concerns about my M4-96D. Luckily having worked with AAC on the M4-2007 I get one as part of my compensation so I will relegate the M4-96D to my AR that sits in the back of the safe unused.
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they are posted in one of these threads......I saw them earlier..
look on page one of this thread...
look on page one of this thread...
Mr. Burns: This anonymous clan of slack-jawed troglodytes has cost me the election, and yet if I were to have them killed, I would be the one to go to jail. That's democracy for you.
Smithers: You are noble and poetic in defeat, sir.
Smithers: You are noble and poetic in defeat, sir.
Repost after Robert accidentally deleted my post
Apparently the USAF was using 22LR for the G5 test that day?
Being on the design team that worked to improve the M4-2007/SPR/416SD, I can say we spent a lot of Kevin's money and time getting it to what it is today. FEA, over 9 different mount locking system designs, new CNC welding, new stronger materials, destructive testing, sound testing, finish testing and even new flash hider designs to improve durability as well as make it lighter than any competitors competing can.
I have not posted a response like this about any competitors suppressor but I do think Gemtech has mislead people on the G%. Saying it has a inconel blast baffle is vastly different than a inconel collar on the first baffle. As a Gemtech can owner I now have concerns about my M4-96D. Luckily having worked with AAC on the M4-2007 I get one as part of my compensation so I will relegate the M4-96D to my AR that sits in the back of the safe unused.
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This post from KEL @ GEMTECH should be in this thread too:
perhaps I can offer some commentary that might answer it. If I cross the line in answering this question and it becomes too much of a plug, moderators, feel free to delete my response here with no hard feelings... That said - Like most things in life, there are ups and downs, two sides to an issue. Fully welding cans has both merits and drawbacks. Fixing a simple baffle strike? Gotta cut apart and gut the whole can in many instances (we won't go into a tangent of whether or not it's illegal to replace the exterior tube). A fast turn around time / sub-hundred dollar repair job for a struck G5 endcap compares how to a probably-not-warranty-work complete $$$ gutting and $$$ rebuild of some fully welded cans? It's not a problem to repair a modular suppressor like the G5 is. That's good, because if they all perform like this one then.... And, regardless of what some might have you believe, Gemtech DOES weld many parts of our suppressors - just because there aren't gobs of weld seams and marks all over your can doesn't mean it doesn't utilize welding where it's needed. You know I don't remember seeing one structural weld in any of those pictures. Maybe Gemtech needs to start thinking about more "gobs" of welds.
Like you commented, I'm curious about about baffle welding [being touted] for added durability too. Welding alone isn't where the Gemtech units get their strength from. The G5 has a core suppressor of inconel, stainless, and titanium, and this "suppressor within a suppressor" is redundantly encased into a high grade stainless exterior shell with hydraulic torquing into place. A note here concerning material: Gemtech often purchases what's called "mill runs" or large custom-made runs of unique tubing to obtain the qualities we're looking for. (As a for-instance, even the economical little Outback is constructed with mill runs of 7075 tubing - the same stuff ARs are made out of - while smaller manufacturers will use 6000 series aluminum. Why would they do that? Because it's cheap, off-the-shelf-available in small quantities. And hey - I'm certain it's probably good enough - we just go the extra mile in various areas. The high-grade stuff is not a size commercially available from most raw metal tubing suppliers. We could cheap out too, but it's not as strong as we wanted, so we have to buy custom runs - tons of the good stuff - to make your Outback suppressors the best value out there.)
The point of that particular subject-matter veer: If you're listening to someone that says that our cans are corner-cutting or weak, I'd suggest pondering a bit about the above sorts of business decisions we make here. Our guys have been making, servicing, supporting, and shooting suppressors for decades, and generally what we do and how we do it is for good reasons. Selah!
Forgive the tangent.
The G5's double-wall construction and material choices makes for a very strong unit. In all the time I've been in the suppressor business, I can't recall ever having seen a Gemtech G5, M496D, HVT, or TPRS "blow out" or rupture a tube. I have, however most certainly, seen a not-insignificant number of guys messing around with trying to make subsonic handloads, mounting their suppressors cockeyed, shooting highly questionable mil-surp ammo that has ended in routine clipped endcaps, baffle strikes, etc.
Simply stated: You put enough ammo downrange for years on end, you *will* experience a squib, or a double charge, or some sort of ammo-induced problem. In the three million-plus rounds I've obtained to be sent into berms, baffletraps, and bodies, I have observed ammo from most every major ammunition manufacturer simply have a bad day. Point being? One day, no matter who's suppressor you buy, you might just clip an endcap. It might be prudent to ask your manufacturer of choice if this is covered under a warranty. It probably isn't - so ask what method is used to repair a damaged baffle. Then ask what that sort of repair might cost you. Our suppressor is designed to stay together under extremely hard use. It's also designed to be easily factory-serviced without financially penalizing a civilian end user if/when something eventually happens.
I'm reminded here of an anecdote worth sharing for the benefit of the readers. There was a USAF trial a couple years back where a Gemtech M4 suppressor was competitively tested against two "all welded construction" suppressors. After a number of tests were performed, I received a call from the procurement officer telling me "Your suppressor was damaged in testing, where can we send it back for repair?"
Naturally, I was disappointed at that outcome, and inquired as to who 'won' the trials.
His response was both encouraging and enlightening: "Oh no- I said your can was DAMAGED - the all-welded competing units CEASED TO BE SUPPRESSORS. Since you're the only suppressor still functioning, we're probably going to go ahead and issue you a sole source on this one".
We received the damaged suppressors back. They were, indeed, screwed up! Significant endcap strikes happened as ammo had gone squirrely and tumbled a bit during their fairly abusive endurance tests. Again, the modular design of a Gemtech unit allows for a quick and economical repair. The two competiting suppressors which utilized welding alone's disposition? The first suppressor's welds softened under the extreme heat and pressure. One or more baffles collapsed from their plug/spot welds and flew forward, stacking up in the nose of the suppressor, making it.... "quite loud". The second suppressor, an all-welded single wall design (that admittedly saved a few ounces as compared to our suppressor), when subjected to the intense heat and blast pressures had it's welds go "plastic" and as a baffle tore away from where it was welded to the suppressor tube wall, it ripped a large tear inside along with it, rupturing it's tube completely to the outside.
I suspect both of these competing units would be difficult and probably impossible to fix, no matter what kind of warm fuzzies the respective company's paper guarantee offers.
I make it a policy of this company to never publicly disclose or advertise the specific names of our U.S. end-users, but perhaps if anyone is really, really bored and likes to google enough, you might find one of the multiple USG contracts that were competed fairly and won by Gemtech to supply hundreds of those weak, unwelded, inferior cans to our troops after these tests...
Apparently the USAF was using 22LR for the G5 test that day?
Being on the design team that worked to improve the M4-2007/SPR/416SD, I can say we spent a lot of Kevin's money and time getting it to what it is today. FEA, over 9 different mount locking system designs, new CNC welding, new stronger materials, destructive testing, sound testing, finish testing and even new flash hider designs to improve durability as well as make it lighter than any competitors competing can.
I have not posted a response like this about any competitors suppressor but I do think Gemtech has mislead people on the G%. Saying it has a inconel blast baffle is vastly different than a inconel collar on the first baffle. As a Gemtech can owner I now have concerns about my M4-96D. Luckily having worked with AAC on the M4-2007 I get one as part of my compensation so I will relegate the M4-96D to my AR that sits in the back of the safe unused.
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No job is too expensive :)
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Kel from Gemtech posted on AR15:
1. Weld everything using full penetration TIG welds. Hire a welding consultant.
2. Use a real Inconel blast baffle, not an insert. This is weak, and has concentricity tolerance stack.
3. Heat treat the blast baffle.
4. Eliminate lower temp metals such as Titanium.
5. Do not use internal springs.
6. This seems obvious, but roll pins are not high strength items.
Also EDM the bore after construction.
This microscopic non-structural quality weld around 25% of the circumference is the only welding I could find in or on the entire can. I would suggest welding is needed in more places.And, regardless of what some might have you believe, Gemtech DOES weld many parts of our suppressors - just because there aren't gobs of weld seams and marks all over your can doesn't mean it doesn't utilize welding where it's needed.
Perhaps try more 'hydraulic torquing.'Like you commented, I'm curious about about baffle welding [being touted] for added durability too. Welding alone isn't where the Gemtech units get their strength from. The G5 has a core suppressor of inconel, stainless, and titanium, and this "suppressor within a suppressor" is redundantly encased into a high grade stainless exterior shell with hydraulic torquing into place.
Well I have been involved in suppressors for two years and I know roll pins and 'hydraulic torque' will not hold together an assault rifle suppressor.The point of that particular subject-matter veer: If you're listening to someone that says that our cans are corner-cutting or weak, I'd suggest pondering a bit about the above sorts of business decisions we make here. Our guys have been making, servicing, supporting, and shooting suppressors for decades, and generally what we do and how we do it is for good reasons. Selah!
Careful choice of words. It seems like the point of failure is not the tube wall. The suppressor fails in a more basic way before the tube ever has a chance to fail.The G5's double-wall construction and material choices makes for a very strong unit. In all the time I've been in the suppressor business, I can't recall ever having seen a Gemtech G5, M496D, HVT, or TPRS "blow out" or rupture a tube.
I guess we differ on how we define 'extremely hard use.' It does seem like it would hold together with mild or moderate use. This is not brain surgery. The weak spots are easy to fix...Our suppressor is designed to stay together under extremely hard use.
1. Weld everything using full penetration TIG welds. Hire a welding consultant.
2. Use a real Inconel blast baffle, not an insert. This is weak, and has concentricity tolerance stack.
3. Heat treat the blast baffle.
4. Eliminate lower temp metals such as Titanium.
5. Do not use internal springs.
6. This seems obvious, but roll pins are not high strength items.
Also EDM the bore after construction.
Last edited by silencertalk on Thu Jun 07, 2007 10:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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That is a work of art. I NEED one now.rsilvers wrote:Welding is important. We had discussed this before:
viewtopic.php?t=6398Then bigbore replied:
The welding paranoia is bullshit started by competitors to make tax stamp buying folks think Gemtech is a weaker suppressor.... I have yet to hear about any Gemtech can failing for any reason.
This is how an AAC core looks before it is stuffed into the outer-tube:
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I shot it a lot today....great rifle...even with the FTE's, an extractor spring would fix it.
Mr. Burns: This anonymous clan of slack-jawed troglodytes has cost me the election, and yet if I were to have them killed, I would be the one to go to jail. That's democracy for you.
Smithers: You are noble and poetic in defeat, sir.
Smithers: You are noble and poetic in defeat, sir.
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I knew it was a lighthearted poke...see, I knew the story of the spring....I just wasn't gonna be the one to tell it....Kevin thought it was funny....
I like the M16/AR just fine, but if I had the cash no doubt I would get one..
I like the M16/AR just fine, but if I had the cash no doubt I would get one..
Mr. Burns: This anonymous clan of slack-jawed troglodytes has cost me the election, and yet if I were to have them killed, I would be the one to go to jail. That's democracy for you.
Smithers: You are noble and poetic in defeat, sir.
Smithers: You are noble and poetic in defeat, sir.
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My LWRC SRT (a piston gun) has functioned flawlessly with and without a suppressor.
Absolutely no FTFs and zero malfunctions of any kind.
I've done alot with standard military M4s, and not one has functioned as well as this rifle. Period.
Absolutely no FTFs and zero malfunctions of any kind.
I've done alot with standard military M4s, and not one has functioned as well as this rifle. Period.
1) People often ask the U.S. what our secret defense is against terorists. We simply reply....Chuck Norris.
2) Jack Bauer does not let women on top during sex. Why? Jack Bauer never fucks up....
2) Jack Bauer does not let women on top during sex. Why? Jack Bauer never fucks up....
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Robert,
Are these "M" baffles or something? Why are they "timed" together with those indexing tabs?
It honestly looks more like a form1 can than something that costs that much...
I'd like to see more pics, including the face of the baffles
Are these "M" baffles or something? Why are they "timed" together with those indexing tabs?
It honestly looks more like a form1 can than something that costs that much...
I'd like to see more pics, including the face of the baffles
Was so poor as a kid, to cool the house we ate beans and drank icewater.....
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Fully Welded
One thing about a fully welded silencer, unless really motivated, people would not be taking your product apart and putting pictures of your secret cone/spacer technology on the internet.
I have an old Ceiner 2point mount that would melt the internals which are aluminum under that much of a firefight.
I have gone 3-30rnd mags back to back, without failure, but that is where I stop.
I have an old Ceiner 2point mount that would melt the internals which are aluminum under that much of a firefight.
I have gone 3-30rnd mags back to back, without failure, but that is where I stop.
NFA shooters blow their load with only one pull of the trigger.