SilencerTalk

Sound Suppressor Discussion
It is currently Sat Nov 01, 2014 12:30 am

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 339 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ... 14  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: K Baffle Design (by 16 year old)
PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2007 11:26 pm 
Offline
Silent But Deadly
User avatar

Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2007 11:49 pm
Posts: 4664
Location: Santa Rosa, Northern Province, PRK
Hi everyone, I've been looking around on the forum for a while now and

have looked at most of the pictures in the image section of the forum.

I'm a Junior in a high school in California (16 years old) this coming

September and have been designing sound suppressors for the last year

in AutoCAD and Solidworks. I have been working on this design for the

last half an hour and have made it an K Baffle Design I think its

called (I designed this in AutoCAD). Like the one that is used on the

MP5-SD (I kinda copied the design lol). I also made a Reflex

Baffle Design in Solidworks. Which ones do you guys think would work

best (with all of the

proper forms of course. Sound suppressors are definatly illegal in

California. But I am luckily enough to still be able to make designs on the

computer of them lol). Also, since I've only been using AutoCAD for 8

months and Solidworks for 1 week, do you think these are pretty good

designs? Hope you dont mind me asking lol. The K Design is a .45

ACP can with .075 in. tube walls and 1.4 in. O.D. and I havent made any

official endcaps yet on the .45 can but is expected to lose 1 baffle and

space for room for a Nielson Device, this can is 7 in. long . The Reflex

Design is a .223 Remington can designed for the AR15 M4 Platform with

.065 tube walls to be made of all welded steel, this can is 7.25 in long and

1.45 in O.D. with endcaps. Both cans are threaded on. Also, one last

thing, I hope my age isn't against the forums posting rules and if it is I

wont post anymore and this post can be deleted.

What does everyone think about these designs if they were to both be

compared as a .223 or .45? Also, would the K Baffle stack work

better for a .45 ACP or a .223 Remington? And, yes, I did notice how thin

the back of the .223 can is and its to be fixed soon.

- Paco Ramirez


Image
Shot
Image
Shot
Image
Shot
Image
Shot
Image
Shot
Image
Shot
Image
Shot
Image
Shot
Image
Shot
Image
Shot


Last edited by paco ramirez on Mon Jul 26, 2010 2:40 am, edited 3 times in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 6:59 am 
Offline
Elite Industry Professional
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2005 10:28 am
Posts: 2810
Location: MA
Those are K baffles.

_________________
Over weight Telco guy with a FFL/07 for hire :)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 8:46 am 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2005 9:31 am
Posts: 33626
Location: USA
Good job.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 10:14 am 
Offline
Silent But Deadly
User avatar

Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2007 11:49 pm
Posts: 4664
Location: Santa Rosa, Northern Province, PRK
Thanks for clarifying that.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 11:29 am 
Offline
Elite Member
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jul 06, 2006 5:48 pm
Posts: 2940
Location: Florida
The bottom one looks like a B&T design.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 11:41 am 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2005 9:31 am
Posts: 33626
Location: USA
That last one is a reflex design.

Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 5:52 pm 
Offline
Silent But Deadly
User avatar

Joined: Wed Dec 07, 2005 4:32 pm
Posts: 2250
Location: miami, florida
dude all your stuff look damn good. i wouldnt say so much you designed though as the top one (look beautiful) is pretty close to the original mikey finn patented design.

not kocking you in any way do not stop what you are doing.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 6:15 pm 
Offline
Silent But Deadly
User avatar

Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2007 11:49 pm
Posts: 4664
Location: Santa Rosa, Northern Province, PRK
Thanks Delta9mda and Mr. Silvers. I've never looked at any patents except

for the ones that might have been in the image section of this forum. The

one with the K Baffles on top i copied from a picture i saw in the image

section of the forum. Right now I'm modding the K Baffle design (copy lol)

into kind of a Reflex/ K Baffle combination. Also below is a picture of what

I based this design on. Thanks for your compliments.

-Paco Ramirez


Image
Shot with Canon EOS 20D.

**EDITED**

I have completed what I think might work to further the suppressors

sound reduction. In the area of the baffle that looks like a thick washer, I

have added a elliptical indentation all the way around the baffle like the

reflex type suppressor. I also made the walls higher and the center for

the bore higher.

-Paco Ramirez

Image
Shot
Image
Shot
Image
Shot


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 8:31 pm 
Offline
Silent But Deadly

Joined: Wed May 04, 2005 9:57 am
Posts: 1780
Location: The Lone Star State
Looks great!
Does it work? :lol:

_________________
Machine gun snob by proxy.
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 9:07 pm 
Offline
Silent But Deadly
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2005 2:06 am
Posts: 501
You overported the circumfrence.

Look at the B&T your copying, notice there are only three ports and they are oposite the internal port.

If you think about how the design works you will understany why.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 9:53 pm 
Offline
Silent But Deadly
User avatar

Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2007 11:49 pm
Posts: 4664
Location: Santa Rosa, Northern Province, PRK
First off, tmix, since I live in California, and am also under age to own

or build any part of a sound suppressor, I wouldn't know if it works

yet because it's illegal to own a sound suppressor in California (unless you

are law enforcement) and nobody under 21 is allowed to build or own a

sound suppressor anywhere in the United States. Judging from the bores

diameters they will work the way they should and they will dampen the

sound plenty to make it a "good" sound suppressor. I am just trying to

improve the design so that my cousin in Alaska can build it (with the

proper paperwork) and tell me how it works out. I am planning to move

to either Nevada, Arizona, Georgia, or Alaska when I am 21 so that I can

start building my own. Thank you for your compliment.



And secondly, Mtdew, thank you for your advice. I understand that I

have too many ports in the center, and I also see how that area is used to

trap the gases allowing them to cool and expand (if thats how it works lol).

I'm also gonna guess that the three ports that are on the Slanted Side

wall's slant are used to port reflecting gas into the expansion area and to

allow the expanded, cooled, gases to vent into the next baffle. And having

too many ports is going to cause the gasses to vent too fast and may

make the baffle unstable if there is not enough material in the area to

support the high pressure of the gases on the faces of the baffle. Is that

correct? I am trying to learn as much as I can about why baffles work and

I don't have the money needed to go and buy the sound suppressor

books. Thanks again for the advice. :D


Last edited by paco ramirez on Tue Jun 26, 2007 5:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 10:12 pm 
Offline
Elite Member
User avatar

Joined: Sun May 06, 2007 9:25 pm
Posts: 2719
Location: Colorado (for Mongo)
Paco if you will pay the shipping I will send you Alan Paulson books volume one and two History of silencers for Free. I've read them and got what I need from them. They are 100$ normally for both. You just have to make me a suppressor when you turn 21............ha ha ha. Of course you will have to ask your parents permission.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 10:26 pm 
Offline
Silent But Deadly
User avatar

Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2007 11:49 pm
Posts: 4664
Location: Santa Rosa, Northern Province, PRK
jimmym40a2, wow!
I cant thank you enough for the offer, I'll P.M. you soon once I ask my parents. And of course, I'd be glad to make you a sound suppressor for free when I am 21 if and when I ever meet you (just pay the $200 since its your sound suppressor lol).


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 10:54 pm 
Offline
Elite Member
User avatar

Joined: Sun May 06, 2007 9:25 pm
Posts: 2719
Location: Colorado (for Mongo)
sounds good.......LOL


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 11:15 pm 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2005 9:31 am
Posts: 33626
Location: USA
It is possible to own a sound suppressor under the age of 21. I believe you form a trust to do it. Ask Jpratt.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 11:17 pm 
Offline
Silent But Deadly
User avatar

Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2007 11:49 pm
Posts: 4664
Location: Santa Rosa, Northern Province, PRK
If I knew that I would have asked the parents to move out of California a long time ago lol. I'll do that thanks.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 1:25 pm 
Offline
Member

Joined: Tue May 01, 2007 2:25 pm
Posts: 11
Location: TX
rsilvers wrote:
It is possible to own a sound suppressor under the age of 21. I believe you form a trust to do it. Ask Jpratt.


Jpratt did some really cool groundwork on this issue. BATF confirmed that someone over 18 but under 21 can own a can. The thing is, dealers are not allowed to transfer it to anyone under 21. So you have 2 routes to ownership of a can, both must eliminate the dealer transfer.

You can buy it from an individual in your state (not requiring a dealer transfer as is needed in out of state transfers) and file the forms yourself.

You can build it on a form 1 after filing the forms yourself.

As far as the forms go, it is probable that if you try to get a CLEO signoff as an individual under 21 that you will run into all kinds of resistance, so forming a trust or corp is the path of least resistance.

Paco, nice CAD work, keep it up.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 5:01 pm 
Offline
Silent But Deadly
User avatar

Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2007 11:49 pm
Posts: 4664
Location: Santa Rosa, Northern Province, PRK
TheNorm, I have many friends my age and older who are into sound

suppressors and firearms like I am, so I was thinking that a Corp would be

the way to go on that one. This definatly sounds like a good way to build a

sound suppressor. Now I can finally get my friends to learn how to do CAD

and machining. I already have one who is going to learn AutoCAD at our

high school this September so that means we are well on are way for R&Dlol.

Thanks for the compliment.

-Paco Ramirez (btw my name is Josh lol):D


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 7:19 pm 
Offline
Silent But Deadly

Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2006 10:16 pm
Posts: 1129
Location: FL
rsilvers wrote:
It is possible to own a sound suppressor under the age of 21. I believe you form a trust to do it. Ask Jpratt.



You can do a Form1 or private-transfer Form4 as an individual, trust, partnership, or corp once you turn 18.

"Paco," your stuff looks great! Move out of that communist wasteland the day you turn 18 and start making stuff!

_________________
ΜΟΛΩÎ


Last edited by JPratt06 on Tue Apr 22, 2008 11:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 7:56 pm 
Offline
Silent But Deadly
User avatar

Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2005 7:24 pm
Posts: 1102
Location: Canada
Quote:
Does it work?

Of course it works, both are copies of existing and successful designs.

Paco/Josh - the one bit of advice I'd give you is to not rush into making stuff. Spend a bunch of time drawing different designs. Try to figure out how each works and how they are similar or different from each other. You will find your designs mature over time as you learn more.

I spent more than 2 years drawing different designs before I made a big break through in my understanding of how suppressors work (or at least how the designs I was working with worked). Now I look back at my early drawings and see the flaws in what I thought was absolutely brilliant at the time. :roll:

Make sure you keep records of all your old drawings. Don't throw stuff out as your ideas mature. I recently went back to an old drawing and it sent my on a totally new and very interesting course.

The second bit of advice I'd give you comes from personal experience. Don't waste your time copying other people's designs. It is OK to use the principles others have developed (hopefully in new ways they never thought of) but outright knocking off someone else's design is just not fullfilling at all. First off, it is harder than you think and there is no personal satisfaction in it.

On the other hand, developing an original design into a working silencer is endlessly satisfying.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 7:46 pm 
Offline
Silent But Deadly
User avatar

Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2007 11:49 pm
Posts: 4664
Location: Santa Rosa, Northern Province, PRK
Suputin,

I am also working on three different designs that are based off of the .45

ACP can (I think it was B&T who designed it). The idea in two of the designs

is to create as much surface area as possible without weighing down the

sound suppressor (I want to keep the weight at or under 25 oz.) Also the

design I am making may have to be done on a CNC Machine because of all

of the ridges on it. It looks kind of like a round ruffles potato chip lol. I have

also been drawing silencers since I played a game called Goldeneye when

I was 6 or 7 years old (that was just the outline though lol, I had NO idea

what it was that made them quiet). I know that drawing 2 black boxes

does not constitute a "design" though lol. Also, about the building part, I

was not planning on building any design myself until I turned 18 because I

WANTED to learn to make my own designs and I am trying to make as

many designs as I can, while taking my time doing so. I also wanted to

get a Associates Degree in Machine Tool Technology so that I would be

able to make these complex designs by myself, with friends or relatives.

Also, a question I have is, does anyone know what type of baffles the

K.A.C. H&K USP-T 45 Suppressor uses, or what makes it able to be fired

hearing safe dry (so I've heard lol)?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 8:03 pm 
Offline
Silent But Deadly
User avatar

Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2005 7:24 pm
Posts: 1102
Location: Canada
Quote:
Also, a question I have is, does anyone know what type of baffles the K.A.C. H&K USP-T 45 Suppressor uses, or what makes it able to be fired hearing safe dry (so I've heard lol)?

The KAC can has a variation on a crimped cone. Basically the crimped cones are star shaped. The reason that can is hearing safe dry comes down to about $1,000,000 worth of R&D. :shock:


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 8:20 pm 
Offline
Dunce
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 15, 2005 6:35 am
Posts: 1019
Location: Wisconsin
It also helps that it's a big can, and the parts are stamped steel (IE stronger than aluminum, while taking up less volume in the can).

At a point, you can't cheat physics. More volume for expansion will mean a more efficient product.

The cost there is welding (or in KAC's case, robot welders), the heavier weight of stainless steel, and the increased difficulty, cost, and time consumed, machining stainless steel.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 8:52 pm 
Offline
Silent But Deadly
User avatar

Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2005 7:24 pm
Posts: 1102
Location: Canada
Quote:
More volume for expansion will mean a more efficient product.

Can't agree with that statement. We are way past using volume to get good sound reduction. Current designs are using high tech to replace volume.

For example, a Reflex Suppressor is quite large yet many smaller designs are much more efficient because they use higher tech baffles. The Reflex baffle is very simple.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jun 30, 2007 10:00 pm 
Offline
Dunce
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 15, 2005 6:35 am
Posts: 1019
Location: Wisconsin
Suputin wrote:
Quote:
More volume for expansion will mean a more efficient product.

Can't agree with that statement. We are way past using volume to get good sound reduction. Current designs are using high tech to replace volume.

For example, a Reflex Suppressor is quite large yet many smaller designs are much more efficient because they use higher tech baffles. The Reflex baffle is very simple.


Right, but Ironically, it does explain why B&T designs are built around cast star baffles with average performance and the KAC stamped and welded product is a benchmark for performance.

The stamped design has lass volume in its solid parts.

So you're missing my point. Similar technology with greater volume internally for gas will mean better performance and THAT IS MY OPINION OF WHY THE KAC STAMPED PRODUCT IS OUTPERFORMING MOST.

If you've built this stuff, and I know you have, I'm sure you've realized you could make a K baffle with 0.045" wall thickness, or 0.1" wall thickness, and the thinner product will out perform the thicker in both sound reduction and overall weight of the finished product.

sometimes you can look at a square wheel and realize the round one will roll easier without building both and testing your hypothesis.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 339 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ... 14  Next

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: 1911rocks, 300sniper, 57fairlane, apd855, Archilochus, BinaryAndy, Bluedog, bstanga, c5_nc, cal50, cpy911, customcruiser, daviscustom, dkirk, Dolomite_Supafly, doubloon, Flat Tire, Fulmen, ghostdog662, grrifles, gunny50, hotbrass, IslandTimes, jfk, ken226, koltrast1, L1A1Rocker, mk3guy, Morgan, mscott, mygreenkaw, Neogeo, para45, Pat M, plodder, pyrofx, Rich V, rjs1000, RPM509, Samson104, Shawnson, shrike, spartan45, T-Rex, thvigil11, Wahnsinn and 595 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group