Engraving
Engraving
Was talking with another member & thought this would be interesting to share.
A while back a member here offered to engrave a tube for me for $60. I though that was a little too much for something I could do myself. How hard could it be right?
When I tell people who ask about using a Dremel not to unless they want it to look shitty, it's because I tried & know it looks shitty. I'll also tell you not to bother with stamps if you don't want it to look shitty. You could get away with them on softer AL if you put a mandrel in the tube to keep from deforming it, but you won't get the letters straight or evenly spaced without a lot of practice. I tried to stamp a VIN on a hard steel trailer axle (requirement here in NC to get tags for a homemade trailer) and a 3 lb hammer on the stamp wouldn't leave a mark. The little 'buzz type' electric engravers - maybe depending on your handwriting skills & some practice controlling it you might get fair results. My attempt was slightly less shitty than the Dremel.
All that is about pretty though. Nothing says your engraving has to be pretty - just large & deep enough.
So, since $60 is too expensive, but cheap DIY methods look like cheap DIY methods, I figured I'd get an engraver & do it right.
So to save $60, I spend $189 on a "vintage" [read: crusty old POS] engraving machine. No big deal right? I'm building multiple cans, doing 80% lowers w/o selector markings already there, etc. At $60 a pop, I'm still ahead.
So the vintage pantograph engraver shows up & I'm ready to start using it. Even though it has no instructions and I've never seen one before, how hard can it be? Well first "vintage" means not in working order and in serious need of a complete teardown, cleaning, oiling & reassembly. OK that's done & I'm ready to engrave something. OH, you need font sets. Right, forgot about those. I'll just pick up a used set on eBay for cheap. But wait, I decided to save a couple bucks on a "vintage" machine and it needs "vintage" font sets that are the right size for it. Well not only are vintage font sets more expensive because they're rare, they have the added bonus of being guaranteed to be missing some letters (who needs the letter 'Y' anywa....). So another $150 for 2 vintage font sets - both incomplete but each one has enough to combine and make one complete set. That would have been a wonderful plan if the letters were the same size. Same font, but different sizes.
So now I'm $340 into this project to save $60 and still can't engrave anything.
So I stumble across another incomplete vintage set that's a mix of all sorts of stuff. It has what I need to make 2 working (not complete, but at least 1 of every character) for both sets. $60 - $35 I got back out of the remainder, so $25 more getting me up to $365 sunk into this. Lot of good commercial silencers on the market - that are already engraved - for that.
So now I'm in business. Remember, I've never seen a pantograph engraving machine before let alone used one. How hard can it be? Well, without a little practice, it's real damn hard. Looks simple, but it's also terribly easy to let the stylus slip out of the well worn "vintage" font and drag an errant mark across your work. Luckily you can predict exactly when this will happen - it will be when you are near the last character of the last line of engraving. The 1st one I did was a 6061 AL tube. Easy enough to blast it and start over. 2nd one was grade 9 Ti. I wnated to Cerakote this one first, then engrave so the engraving would contrast with the black and look more like a commercial unit.
So on the 3rd line stylus slips and I had enough pressure on the tool to make an ugly line across the letters I just did. But now it isn't just a spot fix. All the Cerakote has to come off because the stuff won't stick to itself once cured. Blasting is the only way to remove it once it's cured also. So blast, clean, re-coat, cure, re-engrave. This time I'm being much more careful and the stylus doesn't slip out of a character. This time the work moves and offsets a line halfway through. Of course, last line again. Why does last line matter? Because it's very difficult to drag engrave Ti. To make a letter you keep retracing the same character over & over applying a little more tool pressure with each pass. It takes a long time to just get one character done - not just one pass & the engraving is there. 1st pass barely gets thru the cerakote. 10th pass is probably approaching .003 deep. But back to the work moving - the "vintage" engravet has a self-centering vise, but no work holding to go with that vise. I was using long roll pins squeezed in (you'd have to see it to understand) to hold the tube. A little too much pressure & the tool digs into the work moving it instead of dragging the tool across it - the reason for all the light passes instead of one heavy pass. So now I'm spending an afternoon fabricating hold downs for this little vise (because I wanted to save a few $ buying a "vintage" engraver). So now the tube has been blasted, cleaned, coated with cerakote for the third time. Cerakote isn't free. Using an airbrush doesn't use a lot, so say $10 in wasted material.
So not counting the hours & hours of refurbishing the machine or stripping & recoating the tubes or engraving and re-engraving, I have how much in this project? I'm losing count....$375ish?
But I saved $60 paying a pro to do it right......
So here's how it turned out:
I think it looks pretty good. I wouldn't call it a $375 engraving job, but I'm happy with it.
Moral of the story: if someone offers to engrave your tube for $60 - and you want it to look professionally engraved - jump all over that!
A while back a member here offered to engrave a tube for me for $60. I though that was a little too much for something I could do myself. How hard could it be right?
When I tell people who ask about using a Dremel not to unless they want it to look shitty, it's because I tried & know it looks shitty. I'll also tell you not to bother with stamps if you don't want it to look shitty. You could get away with them on softer AL if you put a mandrel in the tube to keep from deforming it, but you won't get the letters straight or evenly spaced without a lot of practice. I tried to stamp a VIN on a hard steel trailer axle (requirement here in NC to get tags for a homemade trailer) and a 3 lb hammer on the stamp wouldn't leave a mark. The little 'buzz type' electric engravers - maybe depending on your handwriting skills & some practice controlling it you might get fair results. My attempt was slightly less shitty than the Dremel.
All that is about pretty though. Nothing says your engraving has to be pretty - just large & deep enough.
So, since $60 is too expensive, but cheap DIY methods look like cheap DIY methods, I figured I'd get an engraver & do it right.
So to save $60, I spend $189 on a "vintage" [read: crusty old POS] engraving machine. No big deal right? I'm building multiple cans, doing 80% lowers w/o selector markings already there, etc. At $60 a pop, I'm still ahead.
So the vintage pantograph engraver shows up & I'm ready to start using it. Even though it has no instructions and I've never seen one before, how hard can it be? Well first "vintage" means not in working order and in serious need of a complete teardown, cleaning, oiling & reassembly. OK that's done & I'm ready to engrave something. OH, you need font sets. Right, forgot about those. I'll just pick up a used set on eBay for cheap. But wait, I decided to save a couple bucks on a "vintage" machine and it needs "vintage" font sets that are the right size for it. Well not only are vintage font sets more expensive because they're rare, they have the added bonus of being guaranteed to be missing some letters (who needs the letter 'Y' anywa....). So another $150 for 2 vintage font sets - both incomplete but each one has enough to combine and make one complete set. That would have been a wonderful plan if the letters were the same size. Same font, but different sizes.
So now I'm $340 into this project to save $60 and still can't engrave anything.
So I stumble across another incomplete vintage set that's a mix of all sorts of stuff. It has what I need to make 2 working (not complete, but at least 1 of every character) for both sets. $60 - $35 I got back out of the remainder, so $25 more getting me up to $365 sunk into this. Lot of good commercial silencers on the market - that are already engraved - for that.
So now I'm in business. Remember, I've never seen a pantograph engraving machine before let alone used one. How hard can it be? Well, without a little practice, it's real damn hard. Looks simple, but it's also terribly easy to let the stylus slip out of the well worn "vintage" font and drag an errant mark across your work. Luckily you can predict exactly when this will happen - it will be when you are near the last character of the last line of engraving. The 1st one I did was a 6061 AL tube. Easy enough to blast it and start over. 2nd one was grade 9 Ti. I wnated to Cerakote this one first, then engrave so the engraving would contrast with the black and look more like a commercial unit.
So on the 3rd line stylus slips and I had enough pressure on the tool to make an ugly line across the letters I just did. But now it isn't just a spot fix. All the Cerakote has to come off because the stuff won't stick to itself once cured. Blasting is the only way to remove it once it's cured also. So blast, clean, re-coat, cure, re-engrave. This time I'm being much more careful and the stylus doesn't slip out of a character. This time the work moves and offsets a line halfway through. Of course, last line again. Why does last line matter? Because it's very difficult to drag engrave Ti. To make a letter you keep retracing the same character over & over applying a little more tool pressure with each pass. It takes a long time to just get one character done - not just one pass & the engraving is there. 1st pass barely gets thru the cerakote. 10th pass is probably approaching .003 deep. But back to the work moving - the "vintage" engravet has a self-centering vise, but no work holding to go with that vise. I was using long roll pins squeezed in (you'd have to see it to understand) to hold the tube. A little too much pressure & the tool digs into the work moving it instead of dragging the tool across it - the reason for all the light passes instead of one heavy pass. So now I'm spending an afternoon fabricating hold downs for this little vise (because I wanted to save a few $ buying a "vintage" engraver). So now the tube has been blasted, cleaned, coated with cerakote for the third time. Cerakote isn't free. Using an airbrush doesn't use a lot, so say $10 in wasted material.
So not counting the hours & hours of refurbishing the machine or stripping & recoating the tubes or engraving and re-engraving, I have how much in this project? I'm losing count....$375ish?
But I saved $60 paying a pro to do it right......
So here's how it turned out:
I think it looks pretty good. I wouldn't call it a $375 engraving job, but I'm happy with it.
Moral of the story: if someone offers to engrave your tube for $60 - and you want it to look professionally engraved - jump all over that!
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Re: Engraving
Thanks for the story. I was heading down the EXACT same path. I found the old pantograph machines on eBay but hadn't pulled the trigger. I will now look at buying a small CNC router or CNC mill to engrave Ti grade9.
- Bendersquint
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Re: Engraving
CMV You know that Revocable Living Trust can not be abbreviated! ATF does not allow that abbreviation, only recognized city/state abbreviations are permitted.
What's worse is I know you know that, you posed that question to me while it was pending!
Good writeup on your experience.
What's worse is I know you know that, you posed that question to me while it was pending!
Good writeup on your experience.
- L1A1Rocker
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Re: Engraving
Are you assuming that the Trust does not specifically name the trust as XXXX RLT? Or perhaps it was amended to change the name to XXXX RLT?Bendersquint wrote:CMV You know that Revocable Living Trust can not be abbreviated! ATF does not allow that abbreviation, only recognized city/state abbreviations are permitted.
What's worse is I know you know that, you posed that question to me while it was pending!
Good writeup on your experience.
I know that you know a trust can be pretty much named what ever the person wants. I know this because we discussed it at length.
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Re: Engraving
Based off discussions with CMV is where the comments came from.L1A1Rocker wrote:Are you assuming that the Trust does not specifically name the trust as XXXX RLT? Or perhaps it was amended to change the name to XXXX RLT?Bendersquint wrote:CMV You know that Revocable Living Trust can not be abbreviated! ATF does not allow that abbreviation, only recognized city/state abbreviations are permitted.
What's worse is I know you know that, you posed that question to me while it was pending!
Good writeup on your experience.
I know that you know a trust can be pretty much named what ever the person wants. I know this because we discussed it at length.
Still has to have entity title in it. RLT does not identify the entity in the eyes of the ATF. How does the ATF know what RLT means, could mean Really Loud Teenager.
Noone can abbreviate an entities name as different from the documentation provided to the BATFE, thats why you make your trust name as short as possible......XNAMEX TRUST.
As far as the ATF is concerned VxxxxxxxO RLT is a different entity than VxxxxxxxO Revocable Living Trust.
The only thing that can be abbreviated is state and city names as abbreviated by the USPS.
Re: Engraving
We did talk about that & it's stuck in my head for some reason that RLT is an acceptable abbreviation. Selective memory?
Maybe this is why I'm thinking that? viewtopic.php?f=4&t=83119&start=0 That or just seeing examples of it done both ways.
At least I'm getting really good at stripping, re-coating, & re-engraving this piece....
Can I change my trust to amend the name to prevent this on future items? If so how does that work with what's already approved & pending? I would assume all in-hand & pending stuff would have the current name as on the form-1 & any future ones would have 'CMV TRUST'. Might be able to do it quick enough to fix what's pending too? I don't know the process for making changes to something pending.
Anyway, remember if anyone offers to engrave your stuff for under $75 they are doing you a favor Up to $100 is probably fair.
Maybe this is why I'm thinking that? viewtopic.php?f=4&t=83119&start=0 That or just seeing examples of it done both ways.
At least I'm getting really good at stripping, re-coating, & re-engraving this piece....
Can I change my trust to amend the name to prevent this on future items? If so how does that work with what's already approved & pending? I would assume all in-hand & pending stuff would have the current name as on the form-1 & any future ones would have 'CMV TRUST'. Might be able to do it quick enough to fix what's pending too? I don't know the process for making changes to something pending.
Anyway, remember if anyone offers to engrave your stuff for under $75 they are doing you a favor Up to $100 is probably fair.
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- Bendersquint
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Re: Engraving
That was valid a year and a half ago when that discussion happened, not current views from the BATFE. That is the problem with taking answers from old posts, especially when it comes to the BATFE.CMV wrote:We did talk about that & it's stuck in my head for some reason that RLT is an acceptable abbreviation. Selective memory?
Maybe this is why I'm thinking that? viewtopic.php?f=4&t=83119&start=0 That or just seeing examples of it done both ways.
At least I'm getting really good at stripping, re-coating, & re-engraving this piece....
Can I change my trust to amend the name to prevent this on future items? If so how does that work with what's already approved & pending? I would assume all in-hand & pending stuff would have the current name as on the form-1 & any future ones would have 'CMV TRUST'. Might be able to do it quick enough to fix what's pending too? I don't know the process for making changes to something pending.
Anyway, remember if anyone offers to engrave your stuff for under $75 they are doing you a favor Up to $100 is probably fair.
There was also a post a few years ago on why the Akins Accelerator was approved and well that changed, old posts are old.
About renaming thats a hard one, since your items were approved under one name, the ATF could consider it a transfer if the name changes since your forms no longer match. I would consult the NFA Branch for their current standing on it.
- L1A1Rocker
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Re: Engraving
Um, not exactly. They know it by what the Declaration of Trust states. That's why you send in the trust documents. Part 1 of the Declaration of Trust: "This revocable living trust shall be known as the Really Loud Teenager Trust." Or, in the OP's case: "This revocable living trust shall be known as the RLT." Both are legal acceptable titles (at least in Texas) that the ATF must accept, as they cannot dictate state laws governing trusts. They can only insure that state laws are followed.Bendersquint wrote:
Still has to have entity title in it. RLT does not identify the entity in the eyes of the ATF. How does the ATF know what RLT means, could mean Really Loud Teenager.
- L1A1Rocker
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Re: Engraving
As long as state laws are followed in amending the trust the ATF has no say in the matter. If the state prohibits amending the title then you cannot do it. If there is no state law that says you cannot amend the name, then you can do it.Bendersquint wrote:That was valid a year and a half ago when that discussion happened, not current views from the BATFE. That is the problem with taking answers from old posts, especially when it comes to the BATFE.CMV wrote:We did talk about that & it's stuck in my head for some reason that RLT is an acceptable abbreviation. Selective memory?
Maybe this is why I'm thinking that? viewtopic.php?f=4&t=83119&start=0 That or just seeing examples of it done both ways.
At least I'm getting really good at stripping, re-coating, & re-engraving this piece....
Can I change my trust to amend the name to prevent this on future items? If so how does that work with what's already approved & pending? I would assume all in-hand & pending stuff would have the current name as on the form-1 & any future ones would have 'CMV TRUST'. Might be able to do it quick enough to fix what's pending too? I don't know the process for making changes to something pending.
Anyway, remember if anyone offers to engrave your stuff for under $75 they are doing you a favor Up to $100 is probably fair.
There was also a post a few years ago on why the Akins Accelerator was approved and well that changed, old posts are old.
About renaming thats a hard one, since your items were approved under one name, the ATF could consider it a transfer if the name changes since your forms no longer match. I would consult the NFA Branch for their current standing on it.
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Re: Engraving
Has anyone tried this http://youtu.be/jEnNMTMZadw most people have salt and a battery charger.
The only reason after 243 years the government now wants to disarm you is they intend to do something you would shoot them for!
http://www.silencertalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=79895
http://www.silencertalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=79895
- Bendersquint
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Re: Engraving
Cool video, gonna give it a try, wonder how long to let it go to get to depth and not burn all the way through? Hmmmmm.Capt. Link. wrote:Has anyone tried this http://youtu.be/jEnNMTMZadw most people have salt and a battery charger.
Re: Engraving
Well, thats going to be using scrap tube and other text than your can information, hang it for 5 - 6 etc hours, and one will know.Bendersquint wrote: Cool video, gonna give it a try, wonder how long to let it go to get to depth and not burn all the way through? Hmmmmm.
I do guess that tube scrap is no silencer part and free to experiment with in the US?
Gunny
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Re: Engraving
Going to try and test it on titanium and see what happens.gunny50 wrote:Well, thats going to be using scrap tube and other text than your can information, hang it for 5 - 6 etc hours, and one will know.Bendersquint wrote: Cool video, gonna give it a try, wonder how long to let it go to get to depth and not burn all the way through? Hmmmmm.
I do guess that tube scrap is no silencer part and free to experiment with in the US?
Gunny
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Re: Engraving
We engrave what is in the registered owner block on the form. The state will be abbreviated, the middle name may be an initial, but "revocable living trust" is fully written out, if that is how it's on the form.
After doing 1 with hand stamps, I got a small industrial CNC engraver. It cost several thousand dollars, but works very well.
After doing 1 with hand stamps, I got a small industrial CNC engraver. It cost several thousand dollars, but works very well.
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Re: Engraving
Marking Methods 300A electrochemical etch setup works well on aluminum and steel. Never tried titanium. Long lasting stencils can be ordered, or stencils can be made on special stencil paper and an old impact typewriter. Takes a bit of practice at first.
Not a good pic, but it does show the depth well.
Not a good pic, but it does show the depth well.
- L1A1Rocker
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Re: Engraving
This looks good! Will it go through the anodizing of an AR receiver?JohnK454 wrote:Marking Methods 300A electrochemical etch setup works well on aluminum and steel. Never tried titanium. Long lasting stencils can be ordered, or stencils can be made on special stencil paper and an old impact typewriter. Takes a bit of practice at first.
Not a good pic, but it does show the depth well.
Re: Engraving
I'm not sure - but since it is an electro-chemical process, there must be a path for electron flow. A finish will likely be a more-or-less impediment. Never tried it on anything but bare metal.L1A1Rocker wrote:This looks good! Will it go through the anodizing of an AR receiver?JohnK454 wrote:Marking Methods 300A electrochemical etch setup works well on aluminum and steel. Never tried titanium. Long lasting stencils can be ordered, or stencils can be made on special stencil paper and an old impact typewriter. Takes a bit of practice at first.
Not a good pic, but it does show the depth well.
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Re: Engraving
Has anyone ever tried engraving stamps? Or do the not meet the .003 requirements?
I doing a set on amazon for $17. Could a trophy shop do it?
I doing a set on amazon for $17. Could a trophy shop do it?
"Failure to prepare is failure itself"
Check out my YouTube channel
BallisticExpansion
Check out my YouTube channel
BallisticExpansion
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Re: Engraving
A tax stamp?BallisticExpansion wrote:Has anyone ever tried engraving stamps? Or do the not meet the .003 requirements?
I doing a set on amazon for $17. Could a trophy shop do it?
The only reason after 243 years the government now wants to disarm you is they intend to do something you would shoot them for!
http://www.silencertalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=79895
http://www.silencertalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=79895
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Re: Engraving
Capt. Link. wrote:A tax stamp?BallisticExpansion wrote:Has anyone ever tried engraving stamps? Or do the not meet the .003 requirements?
I doing a set on amazon for $17. Could a trophy shop do it?
LOL no. I'm talking about engraving information on a suppressor. The ATF requires the engraving be a minimum of .003" deep.
"Failure to prepare is failure itself"
Check out my YouTube channel
BallisticExpansion
Check out my YouTube channel
BallisticExpansion
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Re: Engraving
I may not be interpreting what you mean in the right way are you suggesting a photo copy of the actual paperwork upon the can itself,Brilliant.BallisticExpansion wrote:Capt. Link. wrote:A tax stamp?BallisticExpansion wrote:Has anyone ever tried engraving stamps? Or do the not meet the .003 requirements?
I doing a set on amazon for $17. Could a trophy shop do it?
LOL no. I'm talking about engraving information on a suppressor. The ATF requires the engraving be a minimum of .003" deep.
The only reason after 243 years the government now wants to disarm you is they intend to do something you would shoot them for!
http://www.silencertalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=79895
http://www.silencertalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=79895
- Bendersquint
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Re: Engraving
Stamps are a great way to ensure an out of round tube or to never get your baffles out!BallisticExpansion wrote:Capt. Link. wrote:A tax stamp?BallisticExpansion wrote:Has anyone ever tried engraving stamps? Or do the not meet the .003 requirements?
I doing a set on amazon for $17. Could a trophy shop do it?
LOL no. I'm talking about engraving information on a suppressor. The ATF requires the engraving be a minimum of .003" deep.
- Capt. Link.
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Re: Engraving
LOL no. I'm talking about engraving information on a suppressor. The ATF requires the engraving be a minimum of .003" deep.
I see three different vectors of conversation.BATFE information is normally engraved upon a suppressor a photo copy of the paper work lazed on the can may pass a smell test and I think would be cool as long as you never transfer the can.Stamps are a great way to ensure an out of round tube or to never get your baffles out!
Ps: I will set up the saltwater etch test this week and re-post later.
Test #1 type 9 ti
Last edited by Capt. Link. on Mon Oct 07, 2013 10:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
The only reason after 243 years the government now wants to disarm you is they intend to do something you would shoot them for!
http://www.silencertalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=79895
http://www.silencertalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=79895
Re: Engraving
From above:
I'll also tell you not to bother with stamps if you don't want it to look shitty. You could get away with them on softer AL if you put a mandrel in the tube to keep from deforming it, but you won't get the letters straight or evenly spaced without a lot of practice. I tried to stamp a VIN on a hard steel trailer axle (requirement here in NC to get tags for a homemade trailer) and a 3 lb hammer on the stamp wouldn't leave a mark.
Since you have a set of stamps coming, experiement with some scrap material. You might get better results than I did. I think it would be an exercise in frustration for a 316 tube. Thought maybe an arbor press would do it better than striking with a hammer. I don't have one to try with so don't know.
I'll also tell you not to bother with stamps if you don't want it to look shitty. You could get away with them on softer AL if you put a mandrel in the tube to keep from deforming it, but you won't get the letters straight or evenly spaced without a lot of practice. I tried to stamp a VIN on a hard steel trailer axle (requirement here in NC to get tags for a homemade trailer) and a 3 lb hammer on the stamp wouldn't leave a mark.
Since you have a set of stamps coming, experiement with some scrap material. You might get better results than I did. I think it would be an exercise in frustration for a 316 tube. Thought maybe an arbor press would do it better than striking with a hammer. I don't have one to try with so don't know.
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Re: Engraving
I think he's talking about using these to mark the required info.
http://www.harborfreight.com/36-piece-1 ... t-800.html
Although a laser etched design would be super cool. We have an Epilog laser at work that's big enough but I don't think it marks metal. It engraves or cuts phenolic really well though (what we use it for). There's a coating you use that the laser kind of burns onto metal to mark it, but it doesn't actually etch or remove material from the metal. I'd play with it, but I'd end up breaking it & don't want to be responsible for that mess. It's finicky enough as it is.
http://www.harborfreight.com/36-piece-1 ... t-800.html
Although a laser etched design would be super cool. We have an Epilog laser at work that's big enough but I don't think it marks metal. It engraves or cuts phenolic really well though (what we use it for). There's a coating you use that the laser kind of burns onto metal to mark it, but it doesn't actually etch or remove material from the metal. I'd play with it, but I'd end up breaking it & don't want to be responsible for that mess. It's finicky enough as it is.
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