My vault door project...
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My vault door project...
My wine cellar has thick wooden doors and a good alarm, but I always had a fascination with safes and vaults, so I decided to get a vault door.
I picked a Smith Security Magnum Extreme because I liked the look of stainless, and you can get it stainless clad as an option ($1155 option on an unpainted door, or $800 extra on a painted door). They also make Gun Safes. Also, it has a one inch thick front plate, so that is nice. By the time I added paint, stainless, an inside handle, a full inside flange, some required "easy install" thing, a thermal re-locker, and a manganese hard plate, My final price, after correction for missing items, was $4839 delivered. The owner, Doug Smith, was always available and easy to work with during the ordering process.
http://www.smithsecuritysafes.com/pages ... Price.html
I opted for a regular dial lock this time, to keep more of a classic look fitting for the wine cellar. I have no reason to be able to get in there quickly.
In preparation for the door's arrival, I hired a friend to make a thick concrete wall with rebar. Pump truck access was sketchy, so he shoveled in the mix, and we used about 70 bags of 5000psi concrete.
The wall came out well. He later covered it with drywall and paint.
When the door was ready, I asked for photos to see if I could catch anything before it was shipped. They didn't send any, and shipped the door.
The door arrived close to the estimated time, and at 1500 lbs it was quite a task to even get it off the freight truck. When I inspected it, there were three immediate problems and so I contacted the maker.
The first was that I had ordered it with a lifting-ring so that it could be hoisted into place, and the ring was missing. Doug said that was his shop-manager's fault, and I should call him to make it right. I opted to buy one on my own, and pay for overnight shipping, so that I would not miss the install schedule. Fine, it worked out.
Another was that it was missing the full inside flange that I opted for because I knew it would cost me more to hire someone to construct one from wood. Doug apologized and said he forgot to put in the work order for that, and offered to send me one later. Even though I knew that I had to eat the additional cost of custom wood-work, I declined, as I had a completion date that I wanted to stick to.
The big problem was that some of the bolts were crooked. I was concerned because I knew that once the door was installed, it was installed. Doug said that was normal, and they tend to straighten out when the door is in place. I decided to proceed with the install.
Seven of my friends helped with the install, and we got it moved and bolted into place in three hours. The move was a challenge because the truck could not being it to the final location. I could easily see professionals charging $2000 or more to install or remove this, but I got it done for under $1000 although I owe a lot of favors now.
I had put a threaded rod on the concrete, and we used that with a come-a-long as a fail-safe. The guys can actually hold the door with their own strength, and the steel cable is just the safety to the guys who could have done it without the cable once the door got started part-way up by the winch.
As you can see, the bolt did not straighten out when the door was in place.
And it is obvious why - the guide tube that holds the bolt was welded in crooked. I send these photos to Doug, and he was dismissive. He said that the plungers were supposed to be at an angle because they work better than when straight.
I could see that if they were all at the same angle, but they were pointing in all different directions, which is clearly just poor craftsmanship.
I carefully measured all of the bolt angles, and this is what I came up with:
-0.5, 2.5, 1.1, 0.8, 2.2, -1.5, 4.0, and 0.5 degrees.
Normal manufacturing tolerances are +- 0.5 degrees, and honestly, even if they were +- 1.0 degree - heck even +- 2.0 degrees, I would not have complained.
But one bolt going 1.5 degrees inward right above another one that is going 4.0 degrees outward is a 5.5 degree spread, which is terrible. My thought was that if I bought a $399 Chinese-made gun safe, and the work was this sloppy, even that would be returned. Really at any price point there are reasonable standards that someone should maintain just to be in business as a professional fabricator.
And I can see how that happened. The guy who drilled the holes in the frame made one 1/8 inch farther from the door-stop than the bolt next to it. Normal tolerances are +- 0.005 inches, so this was about 25 times out of spec. Again, if this were, say, +- 0.020, I would not have mentioned it - but an eighth of an inch off is too much for this kind of thing. The next guy had to cock the bolts at angles to make them go into the frame holes.
I sent these findings to Doug, and he said that all of his doors are done by hand, and never the same. I can understand custom work and how one door is different from the next, but the bolts on one door should all be pointed in the same direction as the other bolts.
I then also noticed that he accidentally overcharged me by $415, but after a lot of back and forth emails and me making it more and more clear of the mistake, he finally agreed, apologized, and send me a check for that difference.
We went back and forth many times on the bolt issue, and I asked if he could hire someone to repair it in place, because I was concerned about my slate floor getting cracked and being without a door, and he declined. He offered to have a truck pick it up if I got my friends to uninstall it and track their hours, but he didn't mention how I would get a replacement re-installed - so I knew it would cost me money an friends. I couldn't ask my friends relive that two more times, even for pay.
Since I knew that removing the door, shipping it, repairing it, shipping it back, and re-istalling it would cost him about $3000, I thought about if he could just compensate me for this so that I could hire someone to fix it on my own, or live with it.
In coming up with a discount for this kind of blemish, I thought about how much of a discount I would want if he had sent me those photos that I asked for in advance, and discovered the problem then. Or even if it was not caught then, if when I first asked about the crooked bolts when the door had not yet been unpacked and installed - and he hadn't advised me to install it anyway, how much off I would want to accept to keep it.
A 25% discount on a $5000 door is $1250, so that seemed fair - not to mention it would be less than 1/2 the cost to him of handling a full replacement - so it would help him out also. Even so, I decided to ask for $1000. He declined, and said that there were guys who happily accepted $200 from him in the past for scratches on stainless.
I countered with $800 because I could hire someone to fix it, and possibly get it done for that amount with some risk and effort. I told him I would assume all risk, or he could arrange for paying someone to fix it in-place, and he could assume the risk.
I spoke to a welder and he said that he can cut out the three worst guide tubes, weld in new ones, enlarge the bolt holes, weld in steel to remake the holes round, sand down the welds, fill in any surface defects with Bondo, and then mask off the room in plastic, and paint over the repaired areas with matching paint. I asked about the welding damaging the stainless or the other paint, and he said he can mitigate that with dry ice.
I presented that $800 figure to Doug, and he declined, and offered $300, or said he will send guys to pick up the door and give me a full refund.
The offer of a refund, while theoretically nice, is impractical because of all of the labor involved at this point. I would have to hire people to install the next one, so that alone would actually cost me $1000 to $2000, not to mention not having a door for another 14 weeks.
Any thoughts on what to do? Maybe just take the $300, live with knowing that I can't repair it for that (even a plumber charges more than that for something easy and routine), and be more careful to use a company like Brown Safe, American Security / Amsec, Fort Knox, Browning, Sturdy, National Security, Liberty Safe, or Graffunder next time?
I picked a Smith Security Magnum Extreme because I liked the look of stainless, and you can get it stainless clad as an option ($1155 option on an unpainted door, or $800 extra on a painted door). They also make Gun Safes. Also, it has a one inch thick front plate, so that is nice. By the time I added paint, stainless, an inside handle, a full inside flange, some required "easy install" thing, a thermal re-locker, and a manganese hard plate, My final price, after correction for missing items, was $4839 delivered. The owner, Doug Smith, was always available and easy to work with during the ordering process.
http://www.smithsecuritysafes.com/pages ... Price.html
I opted for a regular dial lock this time, to keep more of a classic look fitting for the wine cellar. I have no reason to be able to get in there quickly.
In preparation for the door's arrival, I hired a friend to make a thick concrete wall with rebar. Pump truck access was sketchy, so he shoveled in the mix, and we used about 70 bags of 5000psi concrete.
The wall came out well. He later covered it with drywall and paint.
When the door was ready, I asked for photos to see if I could catch anything before it was shipped. They didn't send any, and shipped the door.
The door arrived close to the estimated time, and at 1500 lbs it was quite a task to even get it off the freight truck. When I inspected it, there were three immediate problems and so I contacted the maker.
The first was that I had ordered it with a lifting-ring so that it could be hoisted into place, and the ring was missing. Doug said that was his shop-manager's fault, and I should call him to make it right. I opted to buy one on my own, and pay for overnight shipping, so that I would not miss the install schedule. Fine, it worked out.
Another was that it was missing the full inside flange that I opted for because I knew it would cost me more to hire someone to construct one from wood. Doug apologized and said he forgot to put in the work order for that, and offered to send me one later. Even though I knew that I had to eat the additional cost of custom wood-work, I declined, as I had a completion date that I wanted to stick to.
The big problem was that some of the bolts were crooked. I was concerned because I knew that once the door was installed, it was installed. Doug said that was normal, and they tend to straighten out when the door is in place. I decided to proceed with the install.
Seven of my friends helped with the install, and we got it moved and bolted into place in three hours. The move was a challenge because the truck could not being it to the final location. I could easily see professionals charging $2000 or more to install or remove this, but I got it done for under $1000 although I owe a lot of favors now.
I had put a threaded rod on the concrete, and we used that with a come-a-long as a fail-safe. The guys can actually hold the door with their own strength, and the steel cable is just the safety to the guys who could have done it without the cable once the door got started part-way up by the winch.
As you can see, the bolt did not straighten out when the door was in place.
And it is obvious why - the guide tube that holds the bolt was welded in crooked. I send these photos to Doug, and he was dismissive. He said that the plungers were supposed to be at an angle because they work better than when straight.
I could see that if they were all at the same angle, but they were pointing in all different directions, which is clearly just poor craftsmanship.
I carefully measured all of the bolt angles, and this is what I came up with:
-0.5, 2.5, 1.1, 0.8, 2.2, -1.5, 4.0, and 0.5 degrees.
Normal manufacturing tolerances are +- 0.5 degrees, and honestly, even if they were +- 1.0 degree - heck even +- 2.0 degrees, I would not have complained.
But one bolt going 1.5 degrees inward right above another one that is going 4.0 degrees outward is a 5.5 degree spread, which is terrible. My thought was that if I bought a $399 Chinese-made gun safe, and the work was this sloppy, even that would be returned. Really at any price point there are reasonable standards that someone should maintain just to be in business as a professional fabricator.
And I can see how that happened. The guy who drilled the holes in the frame made one 1/8 inch farther from the door-stop than the bolt next to it. Normal tolerances are +- 0.005 inches, so this was about 25 times out of spec. Again, if this were, say, +- 0.020, I would not have mentioned it - but an eighth of an inch off is too much for this kind of thing. The next guy had to cock the bolts at angles to make them go into the frame holes.
I sent these findings to Doug, and he said that all of his doors are done by hand, and never the same. I can understand custom work and how one door is different from the next, but the bolts on one door should all be pointed in the same direction as the other bolts.
I then also noticed that he accidentally overcharged me by $415, but after a lot of back and forth emails and me making it more and more clear of the mistake, he finally agreed, apologized, and send me a check for that difference.
We went back and forth many times on the bolt issue, and I asked if he could hire someone to repair it in place, because I was concerned about my slate floor getting cracked and being without a door, and he declined. He offered to have a truck pick it up if I got my friends to uninstall it and track their hours, but he didn't mention how I would get a replacement re-installed - so I knew it would cost me money an friends. I couldn't ask my friends relive that two more times, even for pay.
Since I knew that removing the door, shipping it, repairing it, shipping it back, and re-istalling it would cost him about $3000, I thought about if he could just compensate me for this so that I could hire someone to fix it on my own, or live with it.
In coming up with a discount for this kind of blemish, I thought about how much of a discount I would want if he had sent me those photos that I asked for in advance, and discovered the problem then. Or even if it was not caught then, if when I first asked about the crooked bolts when the door had not yet been unpacked and installed - and he hadn't advised me to install it anyway, how much off I would want to accept to keep it.
A 25% discount on a $5000 door is $1250, so that seemed fair - not to mention it would be less than 1/2 the cost to him of handling a full replacement - so it would help him out also. Even so, I decided to ask for $1000. He declined, and said that there were guys who happily accepted $200 from him in the past for scratches on stainless.
I countered with $800 because I could hire someone to fix it, and possibly get it done for that amount with some risk and effort. I told him I would assume all risk, or he could arrange for paying someone to fix it in-place, and he could assume the risk.
I spoke to a welder and he said that he can cut out the three worst guide tubes, weld in new ones, enlarge the bolt holes, weld in steel to remake the holes round, sand down the welds, fill in any surface defects with Bondo, and then mask off the room in plastic, and paint over the repaired areas with matching paint. I asked about the welding damaging the stainless or the other paint, and he said he can mitigate that with dry ice.
I presented that $800 figure to Doug, and he declined, and offered $300, or said he will send guys to pick up the door and give me a full refund.
The offer of a refund, while theoretically nice, is impractical because of all of the labor involved at this point. I would have to hire people to install the next one, so that alone would actually cost me $1000 to $2000, not to mention not having a door for another 14 weeks.
Any thoughts on what to do? Maybe just take the $300, live with knowing that I can't repair it for that (even a plumber charges more than that for something easy and routine), and be more careful to use a company like Brown Safe, American Security / Amsec, Fort Knox, Browning, Sturdy, National Security, Liberty Safe, or Graffunder next time?
Re: My vault door project...
He is offering the refund knowing fully well just how much of a pain it would be for you to uninstall the door. He is banking on you not wanting to deal with it, which is exactly what is happening. Out of principle I would tell him to come pick up it up. But then again I have been known to cut my nose off to spite my face.
Also I would go to the BBB and start a complaint. I don't how big of a company he is but I have always been successful in resolve issues with companies (Sirius satellite radio, safelight auto glass, etc) through the BBB.
Bottom line you paid him a fee to deliver a product meeting certain criteria. Your story states he has missed several criteria along the way. He doesn't deserve to make any money off of you.
Also I would go to the BBB and start a complaint. I don't how big of a company he is but I have always been successful in resolve issues with companies (Sirius satellite radio, safelight auto glass, etc) through the BBB.
Bottom line you paid him a fee to deliver a product meeting certain criteria. Your story states he has missed several criteria along the way. He doesn't deserve to make any money off of you.
Re: My vault door project...
Man this really not good at all. I have to tell you though that you have a beautiful wine cellar. I would consult the BBB and a simple letter from an attorney would do the trick. I would do a you tube video and blast it all over the internet. The best way for this guy to fix the issue is to be hit in his pocket book.
Re: My vault door project...
After seeing the pics of the wine cellar, and the safe being moved, I started having the theme from Magnum P.I. running through my head.
Re: My vault door project...
You have made a lot of attempts to meet him halfway with his multitude of (easily preventable) mistakes; you have been very understanding and accommodating all along the way. Sniper1 is absolutely right about the guy banking on you not wanting to relive the nightmare, and you of course recognized that very early. If you have the time and means to go through the full refund process at the seller's expense, I would urge you to go this route.
He was probably a nice guy to you and it sounds like you really don't want to deal with the headache, but he botched your order and neglected to follow your instructions to provide pictures - which would have prevented all of this. If you roll over and live with his mistakes, he won't think twice before rushing through the next guy's order and screwing things up. Sometimes consequence is the best teacher. Make this guy learn a lesson - you might be doing the next buyer a favor.
He was probably a nice guy to you and it sounds like you really don't want to deal with the headache, but he botched your order and neglected to follow your instructions to provide pictures - which would have prevented all of this. If you roll over and live with his mistakes, he won't think twice before rushing through the next guy's order and screwing things up. Sometimes consequence is the best teacher. Make this guy learn a lesson - you might be doing the next buyer a favor.
Re: My vault door project...
Looking at the design of the locking lugs I suggest scrapping the door and get one designed by professionals. It looks like that design of the locking bar is s--t at best from your picture. If the lugs are independent like shown in your picture plus given that they are at variety of angles that do not have consistent contact will make the door vulnerable to prying attacks. Just look at that collar, there is nothing that is keeping it from pivoting during the attack except the door edge which is no strong because the moment of inertia in that plain is very low. The tube should have been gusseted at a very minimum. It is obvious to me from the few pictures that you have shown that this guy has no clue how to design or build a vault door.
Have him come pick the POS up and refund your money.
Watch this video and weep at the POS that door is compared to it.
http://youtu.be/ZxwtqL718I8
Have him come pick the POS up and refund your money.
Watch this video and weep at the POS that door is compared to it.
http://youtu.be/ZxwtqL718I8
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Re: My vault door project...
+2!Mongo wrote:Looking at the design of the locking lugs I suggest scrapping the door and get one designed by professionals. It looks like that design of the locking bar is s--t at best from your picture. If the lugs are independent like shown in your picture plus given that they are at variety of angles that do not have consistent contact will make the door vulnerable to prying attacks. Just look at that collar, there is nothing that is keeping it from pivoting during the attack except the door edge which is no strong because the moment of inertia in that plain is very low. The tube should have been gusseted at a very minimum. It is obvious to me from the few pictures that you have shown that this guy has no clue how to design or build a vault door.
Have him come pick the POS up and refund your money.
Watch this video and weep at the POS that door is compared to it.
http://youtu.be/ZxwtqL718I8
In particular what would you do if, or most likely when, this execrably executed door system failed in the
locked position? Liberating expensive arms in a failed gun safe due to its bad internally locking design
was a nightmare.
Good luck.
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Re: My vault door project...
Mongo - you are right that the internal design is probably below average. A professional safe installer told me that he installed one of these and that the internals were amateur. Gearing would be much better, or a single transfer bar that makes them all move at once.
Watch this video:
http://www.graffundersafes.com/why.html
Watch this video:
http://www.graffundersafes.com/why.html
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Re: My vault door project...
The most likely way this could fail to open is if those jam nuts came off. While it does seem vulnerable to that, and in fact I check them and one of them was not secure, I could just inspect them once a year and keep them tight. I could even put a drop of green Locktite on each one.
The bolts holding on the back cover were just zinc hardware like they sell at Home Depot. It is about $3 for nicer automotive-grade bolts.
The bolts holding on the back cover were just zinc hardware like they sell at Home Depot. It is about $3 for nicer automotive-grade bolts.
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Re: My vault door project...
...the door internals on my cheapshit Champion safe are looking a heck of a lot better all of a sudden!
Wow, I'd send that back and ask for a complete refund. He's counting on you not to do that. I wonder how many times he's gotten away with that business model? Especially reassuring you that the bolts "would straighten out". The bolts hold the door closed. The last thing I'd want is for them to have enough play in order for them to "straighten out"!
O2
Wow, I'd send that back and ask for a complete refund. He's counting on you not to do that. I wonder how many times he's gotten away with that business model? Especially reassuring you that the bolts "would straighten out". The bolts hold the door closed. The last thing I'd want is for them to have enough play in order for them to "straighten out"!
O2
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Re: My vault door project...
There is what I would describe as a lot of play between the bolts and the guide tubes. A very lose fit. The opposite of a piston in a cylinder. My National Security and Amsec doors have a precise fit, and both of those doors were less than half the price, though much less steel thickness.
Re: My vault door project...
Spending that kind of coin on a door with that kind of a collection and getting a half-assed product is a no go.
Get a refund. You are going to be married to that half-ass job for the next 50 years. Then, your heirs are going to be married to the half-assed job.
Your kids going to remember to tighten those "every once in a while" or will someone have to pay a ton of money to open up said half-assed door after they read your will?
At this point "give me a refund and come get your door" is the only way for you to cause the guy pain.
Seems to me the whole affair is penny wise and pound foolish.
Get a refund. You are going to be married to that half-ass job for the next 50 years. Then, your heirs are going to be married to the half-assed job.
Your kids going to remember to tighten those "every once in a while" or will someone have to pay a ton of money to open up said half-assed door after they read your will?
At this point "give me a refund and come get your door" is the only way for you to cause the guy pain.
Seems to me the whole affair is penny wise and pound foolish.
-----
Ick
Ick
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Re: My vault door project...
Fast forward to 1:39 to see some very nice LATHE TURNED locking bolts.
Edit: Oops, heres the link for the video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GBe8maAvAQU
I have to agree with those other posters. Return to door. Either call it an expensive lesson learned or get a lawyer to try and recoop your losses.
Edit: Oops, heres the link for the video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GBe8maAvAQU
I have to agree with those other posters. Return to door. Either call it an expensive lesson learned or get a lawyer to try and recoop your losses.
Re: My vault door project...
That's exactly me feeling. I earn my living as a weldor. They didn't get that one right. I'd have no problem returning it to the manufacturer.ick wrote:Spending that kind of coin on a door with that kind of a collection and getting a half-assed product is a no go.
Get a refund. You are going to be married to that half-ass job for the next 50 years.
At this point "give me a refund and come get your door" is the only way for you to cause the guy pain.
As usual, you've done a great job documenting the project. Fantabulous wine cellar. It deserves better.
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Re: My vault door project...
I just searched around and someone said their door wouldn't open, and it turned out to be a lose nut.
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Re: My vault door project...
I can tell you are a professional weldor as you said "weldor" and not "welder." Anyone who was not real would have used welder.
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Re: My vault door project...
I am happy with the door itself. I was just wondering if I was being reasonable to consider that bolt a blemish. I wanted was a credit for that, and not a refund. I asked him again today and he said yes.
Here is the door. Everyone who has seen it in person has been impressed by it - especially the one inch thick face. I am really enjoying the dial combination lock.
Here is the door. Everyone who has seen it in person has been impressed by it - especially the one inch thick face. I am really enjoying the dial combination lock.
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Re: My vault door project...
I am happy with the door itself. I was just wondering if I was being reasonable to consider that bolt a blemish. I wanted was a credit for that, and not a refund. I asked him again today and he said yes.
Here is the door. Everyone who has seen it in person has been impressed by it - especially the one inch thick face. I am really enjoying the dial combination lock.
Here is the door. Everyone who has seen it in person has been impressed by it - especially the one inch thick face. I am really enjoying the dial combination lock.
Re: My vault door project...
Thank you. Nice catch, 99.5% simply assume I can't spell.silencertalk wrote:I can tell you are a professional weldor as you said "weldor" and not "welder." Anyone who was not real would have used welder.
The exterior does look great. The stainless option was worth the extra green.
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Re: My vault door project...
My concern would be what happens if the poor workmanship causes it to not be able to open? Warranty does not sound to be high on the manufacturee list.....
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Re: My vault door project...
Is there enough space on the inside bolts to safety wire them? Or put in a cotter pin to prevent the bolt from backing out?
I had a safe that had the mechanism inside lose a nut and it needed to be drilled open. Sucked.
I had a safe that had the mechanism inside lose a nut and it needed to be drilled open. Sucked.
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Re: My vault door project...
Yes, I could drill for wiring. Or I could get nylock nuts. Or I could use Loctite® brand thread locker. I will do that some time and buff the bolts while I am at it. It has two jam nuts now, which should work. Double-checking the tightness and adding a drop of green Loctite® has like no chance of failing.
As for drilling the lock - first here is 1 inch of solid steel. Then there is a 1/2 inch thick plate of Manganese-alloy steel protecting the lock. So 1.5 inch barrier. It would be slow-going with a diamond drill.
As for drilling the lock - first here is 1 inch of solid steel. Then there is a 1/2 inch thick plate of Manganese-alloy steel protecting the lock. So 1.5 inch barrier. It would be slow-going with a diamond drill.
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Re: My vault door project...
Weld it on.silencertalk wrote:Yes, I could drill for wiring. Or I could get nylock nuts. Or I could use Loctite® brand thread locker. I will do that some time and buff the bolts while I am at it. It has two jam nuts now, which should work. Double-checking the tightness and adding a drop of green Loctite® has like no chance of failing.
As for drilling the lock - first here is 1 inch of solid steel. Then there is a 1/2 inch thick plate of Manganese-alloy steel protecting the lock. So 1.5 inch barrier. It would be slow-going with a diamond drill.
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Re: My vault door project...
yea yea, doors, issues, blems, whatever.
Let's focus on that wine cellar! I don't care if it's filled with re-bottled mad dog 20/20 or $5 California Merlots; envious.
Let's focus on that wine cellar! I don't care if it's filled with re-bottled mad dog 20/20 or $5 California Merlots; envious.