NFA wants my Schedule A for Transfere ???????

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NFA wants my Schedule A for Transfere ???????

Post by keatsabn » Wed Sep 26, 2007 8:40 am

OK,
A little background info.

I live in Georgia, this is not my first NFA transfer using my trust (#4)
What I sent-
o 2x Form 4
o 2x Citizen Cards
o 1x Declaration of trust minus Schedule A (I read here NFA wants that now)
o 1x Certification of Trust
o My Money

I had my form 4 go pending on the 11th of this month I called yesterday to see if it was approved lady said not yet it was sent to Ms. Flanigan (new examiner) for final approval. I asked to be transferred to her desk. I spoke to her she said she could not find my paperwork but she had a pile of trust transferees to look thru. She found mine in there, but she said there was a problem with my paperwork I was missing my schedule A. I was very polite and said that when I first did my trust that I have sent one in with my original paperwork and you should have a copy on file. I also told here that my schedule A now has a lot of personal items on it that I do not want out in the open or a matter of public record, she politely said that she needs it to complete the transfer and could not approve it without the Schedule A. (Very bad words and comments are going thru my mind and I had the good mind set to close the cake hole below my nose before I screwed myself) Yes, I do have my NFA items on it also. She said that she had called Allen over at Polite Society about needing the transferee's Schedule A's also . Allen did tell her that she was mistaken and the Certification of Trust by Georgia law was all that was needed. She told me that she did bring this to her supervisor’s attention and he stated that the Schedule A was needed. I just wanted my form 4 approved, I asked her if she would take an e-mailed copy. She said yes so I went in and took off all of my personal stuff on my Schedule A and left my NFA items and e-mailed her it. I stayed on the phone until she opened it up and said that it was good to go. She also said she was going to call Polite Society tomorrow. So I called Allen last night told him what happened and he was a little upset that they wanted it and said that he looks forward to her call and said if she does not call he will call her. And try and get it squared away for future transfers. I told him that I was going to post it here he said great he wanted to get the NFA communities take on it and to email him the link. So did I screw up by sending my Schedule A in? Should I have waited till she had Allen or Mark from Polite Society talk to the decision makers at the NFA? All I can say is if your forms go pending for awhile call and check something may be wrong. Ms. Flanigan was nice and professional I just think that who ever trained her leave a little to be desired. I went back and added all my personal stuff back on my trust and will wait for the call to come get my M4-1000.
Last edited by keatsabn on Wed Sep 26, 2007 9:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by jackal2001 » Wed Sep 26, 2007 8:57 am

I wonder if you are the person Mark is referring to over here.

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b ... 691&page=2
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Post by keatsabn » Wed Sep 26, 2007 9:02 am

YUP one and the same
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Post by ArevaloSOCOM » Wed Sep 26, 2007 9:06 am

Weird.

One more example of examiners doing thier own thing for no lawful reason.

i have never included a scheduale A and been apoorved about 5 times now....................

I REALLY wish the BATFE would standardize this s--t already.....
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Post by jackal2001 » Wed Sep 26, 2007 9:08 am

I have never even sent my a copy of my Decleration and just had a form 4 approved on 9/17/07 with only my Certification of Trust.
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Post by keatsabn » Wed Sep 26, 2007 9:34 am

You know some times I'm tired of people I don't know screwing with the Fat guy. I am starting to think NFA does not like the me :D
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Post by ArevaloSOCOM » Wed Sep 26, 2007 9:39 am

From the ar15.com link:

Originally Posted By BookHound:

We politely explained that the Declaration of Trust document shows that the Trust is legal and that the assets of the Trust are private.

Mark





That's the correct answer IMHO.
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Post by keatsabn » Wed Sep 26, 2007 11:31 am

I spoke to Allen last night and he said the same thing, Ms Flanigan said that she wanted Allen or Mark to do a statement or ask for clarification so that she could take it to her superviser for clear guidence, but before that she had said her superviser already said that I needed one. Hey left hand what are you doing, nothing much right hand what are you doing. But I have to say that Ms. Flanigan was very professional and I hope that with more time on the job she will get better. It is the Training of new personel that to me is screwd up. I think had her training been more in depth and she back seated longer this issue would not have came up. just my take on it.
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Post by BookHound » Wed Sep 26, 2007 2:12 pm

Yep, we are working with them on this. Sit tight. I'll updae everyone as to what happens.

Mark

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Scedule A

Post by brazos609 » Wed Sep 26, 2007 4:07 pm

The Schedule A or Property List is what shows them that the NFA item belongs to the trust. When you pay for the item you have a claim of ownership to it. You then transfer your claim of ownership/interest in the item to the trust and add it to your Schedule A/Property List. You then transfer title/registration of the item to the trust, even the instructions on the software tell you to do it in this order. You do not add the item to the Schedule A after the Form 4 is approved. The NFA section has every right to require the Schedule A.

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Re: Scedule A

Post by WC » Wed Sep 26, 2007 7:31 pm

brazos609 wrote: You do not add the item to the Schedule A after the Form 4 is approved.
:? How could you add it BEFORE the Form 4 is approved?? You don't own it until the Form 4 is approved. How could you legally add ANYTHING that you don't own to a Trust.

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Post by Selectedmarksman » Wed Sep 26, 2007 8:03 pm

<noob talking

Well, usually you pay for a can up front then go through the paperwork process. I think you 'own' the suppressor after you transfer funds but cannot legally take 'possession' of it until the Form 4 clears.

Of course, I could be wrong, I'll leave it up to the lawyers. Lord knows we can't leave it up to the ATF, they never say the same thing twice.

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Re: Scedule A

Post by ArevaloSOCOM » Wed Sep 26, 2007 8:20 pm

brazos609 wrote:The Schedule A or Property List is what shows them that the NFA item belongs to the trust. When you pay for the item you have a claim of ownership to it. You then transfer your claim of ownership/interest in the item to the trust and add it to your Schedule A/Property List. You then transfer title/registration of the item to the trust, even the instructions on the software tell you to do it in this order. You do not add the item to the Schedule A after the Form 4 is approved. The NFA section has every right to require the Schedule A.
The point of the Trust is to be private/personnal, not public.

Thus by disclosing the assests of the Trust it would pretty much kill the privacy issue.

But providing the Declaration of Trusts it's already bad enough you have to provide the names of the Trustees and Successor Trustees/Beneficaries.................thus taaking away from the whole point of privacy/personal legal document.

IMHO of course..
Last edited by ArevaloSOCOM on Wed Sep 26, 2007 10:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by johnnywitt » Wed Sep 26, 2007 10:22 pm

All that you should have to furnish is the Certicate of Trust, not the Declaration of Trust. The Declaration of Trust is the PRIVATE part. Just like Arrevalo said. People have gotten this so FUBARED that now the ATFE probably EXPECTS it now. We might have shot ourselves in the ass here IMO. I'm getting ready to do a Form 4 on a .22 Quest and I am going to send my Certificate of Trust ONLY. I hope I get Ted Clutter, because he definitely has his s--t squared away. In Fact, you ought to call him, so he can straighten this stupid bitch out.

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Post by ArevaloSOCOM » Wed Sep 26, 2007 10:31 pm

johnnywitt wrote:All that you should have to furnish is the Certicate of Trust, not the Declaration of Trust. The Declaration of Trust is the PRIVATE part. Just like Arrevalo said. People have gotten this so FUBARED that now the ATFE probably EXPECTS it now. We might have shot ourselves in the ass here IMO. I'm getting ready to do a Form 4 on a .22 Quest and I am going to send my Certificate of Trust ONLY. I hope I get Ted Clutter, because he definitely has his s--t squared away. In Fact, you ought to call him, so he can straighten this stupid bitch out.
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I agree 100%

The main problme seems to be the lack of a standard.

I have sent in my Trust becasue I don't want hassles.

In a PERFECT world you could send in Cert of Trust, as that's the point of that document to prove that there is a REAL Trust out there without having to disclose private information.

The other problem is i have noticed that MOST NFA guys are more than willing to submit MORE than is needed than EXACTLY what is needed, thread on what guys take to the range to "prove" their NFA toys flat out amaze me, receipt of toy being bought, copy of Trust, copt of Form 4 even when it's not required by any law or rule..........

NFA guys tend to go out of their way to over complicate things in the off chance they'll get questioned on the legality of thier items.

This mentality has resulted in guys send EVERYTHING to the NFA branch in the hopes of not getting hassled, but I agree with you...........it's so much over kill that it's like we are now shooting ourselves in the foot.

That and the lack of any kind of "offical" ATF standard for Trusts doesn't help.

Some guys send in the Trust or Cert. Both have been approved.

Some guys send in Citzenship papers, some don't. Both have been approved.

Some people send in Zerox co[pies of the Declaration of Trust, some send copies of Cert. Both have been apporved.

And then there is the actaul EXAMINER themsleves and what THEY FEEL should have been submitted..............like the Scheduale A crap.

This lack of any standard has led to us , and understandably so, overkilling the NFa bracnh in hopes of just being left alone on buying something we have the "right" to buy.

:?
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Post by jreinke » Thu Sep 27, 2007 6:17 am

What pisses me off about this whole Certification/Declaration of Trust thing is that having served in the Army for 30 years, I expect government agencies to act like the military. The Army has rules, regulations, policies and procedures; and EVERY ONE OF THEM is in writing! It's quite obvious to me that the ATF has none of the above. We should be able to go to the ATF web site and download the information needed to comply, but its quit obvious that they are making it up as they go along!

Jeff

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Post by keatsabn » Thu Sep 27, 2007 8:34 am

Jeff,
I know what your talking about only did 22years if I had a soldier do this I would ask to see the regulation and I would be able to say that what I am doing is within the reg, so your local requirement is not with the reg. ATF does not have a true regulation yes they have the CFR but that reads like lawyer double take where one part says one thing and two pages later it tells you to do the direct opposite. I don't think that she is a "STUPID BITCH" If she was a real bitch she would have said Sir, I am sending you a letter with what is wrong when you get it please send me the required documentation and not let me e-mail her my schedual A. Now that would have been a BITCH. My old Platoon Sgt taught me when dealing with Finance give them what you they want and after you get the money from the Army pitch your bitch for the next guy. That is what I did. But I will let Allen and Mark square away her supervisor because they are the subject matter experts. I think that her supervisor is an ASS. We all know that when we take a new job on the supervisor is the person responsible for her training. He FAILED his job. She did ask her supervisor about my form 4 he said that it needs one. Now when you deal with Mark and Allen you DO NOT pay for it until you pick it up, so NO I can not add it to my Schedule A, and even if I did pay for it, I would not add it until I had the piece of equipment in my possession. All kinds of things can happen, so until it is in my hands it does not go on my Schedule A. The part that really was FUBAR was I have other item on it that are personal and don't want it in the public record till I'm gone. It all falls into the supervisors lap that individual is the only one I have a beef with, the examiner thought there was a problem went to her boss (like we all do if a question comes up) he/she is the one who decided to add the extra requirement.
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Post by BookHound » Thu Sep 27, 2007 12:48 pm

Well, Allen just resolved this with our new inspector, Nancy Flanigan. For the record Nancy has been VERY pleasant and responsive. ATF's legal folks are now saying that since the Declaration references the Schedule A, the Schedule A MUST be included.

You can no longer send just a Certification of Trust or Declaration of Trust without the Schedule A. You can redact any items on the Schedule A that are not NFA items. You need to initial next to the redacted items.

Honestly, since they only want NFA items on the Schedula A it sounds more to me like they are trying to either make sure people are updating their Trusts properly with the NFA items or that they are trying to use that information to verify their NFA registry. Either way, they did say you could redact non-NFA items on the Schedule A.


***************************
Now for Mark's editorial (not PSI's view; just Mark's opinion):

I think the Schedule A is still no one's business. The Declaration of Trust properly notarized is proof of the legal entity without having to disclose the assets of that legal entity. The legal purpose of a Certification of Trust document is specifically to obfuscate details (people's names, property, etc.) of the Trust while still proving the legal Trust exists. That this legal document not be viewed sufficient is, to me, not correct. But, what are ya gonna do? We play by the rules that are made up as we go. The NFA branch folks are at the mercy of their legal advisors.

Them allowing us to hide all assets on the Schedule A except for NFA items makes me wonder why they want to see the NFA items. It can only be for the two reasons I mentioned earlier.

***************************

There ya go, boys and girls. Better send in them Schedule As!

Mark

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Post by chrismartin » Thu Sep 27, 2007 1:16 pm

BookHound wrote:
Honestly, since they only want NFA items on the Schedula A it sounds more to me like they are trying to either make sure people are updating their Trusts properly with the NFA items or that they are trying to use that information to verify their NFA registry. Either way, they did say you could redact non-NFA items on the Schedule A.
From what I've read, some states REQUIRE SOMETHING to be on the Schedule A in order to be a valid trust (VA is one of them I believe) So, if that is the case, if the ATF's lawyers look at the declaration and it has no property in it, it is not a valid trust. I think it's bogus they are asking for the declaration at all, certification should be enough. It would suck though to go to jail for possession of NFA items because of an invalid trust. For those of us that used Willmaker, hey, free lawyer review courtesy of the ATF :)

Besides, I'm sure all these documents just end up where Indy's ark did.

:)

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Post by BookHound » Thu Sep 27, 2007 1:20 pm

Indy's Ark! LOL!

That was awesome, man.

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Post by ArevaloSOCOM » Thu Sep 27, 2007 1:49 pm

chrismartin wrote:
BookHound wrote:
Honestly, since they only want NFA items on the Schedula A it sounds more to me like they are trying to either make sure people are updating their Trusts properly with the NFA items or that they are trying to use that information to verify their NFA registry. Either way, they did say you could redact non-NFA items on the Schedule A.
From what I've read, some states REQUIRE SOMETHING to be on the Schedule A in order to be a valid trust (VA is one of them I believe) So, if that is the case, if the ATF's lawyers look at the declaration and it has no property in it, it is not a valid trust. I think it's bogus they are asking for the declaration at all, certification should be enough. It would suck though to go to jail for possession of NFA items because of an invalid trust. For those of us that used Willmaker, hey, free lawyer review courtesy of the ATF :)

Besides, I'm sure all these documents just end up where Indy's ark did.

:)

Chris
+1

Just one more reason you don't need to go pay a lawyer to do this.

ATF is going WAY out of thier way to amke sure you get it right.

Thanks for the update Mark. I am with you on the same frame of mind.

It's absolute bullshit and all that...........

It clearly kills the whole privacy issue a Trust is supossed to have .......
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Post by Bob » Thu Sep 27, 2007 4:40 pm

No you are not getting a free lawyer by using Quicken. The ATF attorneys are giving a cursory review of the Trust to see if it is a legal entity. That does not mean you didn't screw up something else, like the disposition of the assets upon death, the trustees powers, etc. There is a little more to it than that. I am the attorney who wrote the article for Small Arms Review on the subject. Ihave been doing trust for clients for NFA for years and got the ball rolling on the useage of trusts for NFA purposes. I am also the speaker at the NFATCA meeting at Knob Creek this October on the subjec to of Trusts and the NFA so I have a pretty good handle on this subject. You do not necessarily need to add every NFA item to your schedule "A". If you want to that is fine. If not, it should be no problem either. Your form 4 is proof of ownership of the NFA item in the trust whether it is listed on Schedule "A or not. Adding an NFA item to the schedule "A" prior to the approval of the transfer would make no sense. Think about it. You don't own it until the transfer is approved. Yes, you now have to send the complete trust agreement, which is what I have been advising clients to do all along. It is the only way they can determine that they are transferring the NFA item to a valid legal entity. The reason that they want the schedule "A" is because it is part of the trust and the agrement typically makes reference to it. Also, you have to fund the trust with something to legally establish it, so typically the schedule as acknowledges the receipt of $10.00 or something along those lines. Without that initial funding in most states the legal entity known as the trust would not exist. You guys are really making a big deal over something pretty minor. Just send in the trust with your Form 4 and you are good to go.

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Post by Diomed » Thu Sep 27, 2007 4:50 pm

Huh.

Well, if all goes well I have a passel of form 4s I need to send in next month, so I'll see what happens. If they ask for my asset schedule (even though the trust document does not make specific reference to it), I'll send it to them.

It'll look like declassified UFO documents, though.

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Post by 3101 » Thu Sep 27, 2007 5:09 pm

Ya'll listen to Bob up there and relax....
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Trusts

Post by brazos609 » Thu Sep 27, 2007 5:28 pm

I have seen someone who submitted a trust set up as "I as grantor and trustee appoint myself as secondary trustee for the benefit of me as the beneficiary." That is why the BATFE has to look at these.

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