Can we discuss the different types of shooting comps?

Stu · Post by **Stu** » Tue Jan 27, 2009 2:18 am

I would really like to try some competitive shooting, as I see no better way to improve my shooting skills. If I'm going to be concealing a gun, I'd really like to be confident with it.

First I was set on IDPA, then I started looking into ISPC. I know that there are others as well, like USPSA. I'm also aware that I can do any or all of these types of shooting that I want. I just don't have the time and money to shoot as often as I'd like. I think it'd be easy enough to set aside time and money to do an event once a month or so.

Anyway, I'm sure plenty of you guys have experience doing these matches. So what is your take on each different sport? I'm not really looking to be convinced one way or the other, as I'll likely try both IDPA and ISPC here in the up coming months. Just wanted to hear what everyone thinks of each sport.

Thanks.

Diomed · Post by **Diomed** » Tue Jan 27, 2009 2:22 am

I only shoot ICORE, so I can't help you with your fancy self-loading pistols.

Stu · Post by **Stu** » Tue Jan 27, 2009 2:43 am

The USPSA mentioned ICORE as one of their affiliates, or something.

Gato · Post by **Gato** » Tue Jan 27, 2009 7:04 am

USPSA is IPSC in the US.

Slightly different rules but the game is still the same.

Main difference between IDPA and USPSA:

IDPA - This is how you solve the problem.

USPSA - Figure out the best way to solve the problem on your own.

Some nuances in reloads too - why, when and where.

Go shoot both and talk to the veterans and let them explain the game to you. I did and went with USPSA. Other have and went with IDPA. Both are a blast but one will suit your style more than the other.

PM me and I'll give you my take on each. What gun by the way?

Doink67 · Post by **Doink67** » Tue Jan 27, 2009 10:21 am

Probably a CZ-75, Stu loves those

Stu · Post by **Stu** » Tue Jan 27, 2009 10:22 am

I'd like to use my carry gun which is a Smith & Wesson M&P40c.

Gato · Post by **Gato** » Tue Jan 27, 2009 11:06 am

Think IDPA.

You'd be at a disadvantage running that set up in production class in a USPSA event.

rob_s · Post by **rob_s** » Tue Jan 27, 2009 11:23 am

Figure out what you want to get out of it. I confuse a lot of IPSC shooters because I don't show up to compete, and frankly still do better than many of them that claim to be all about the competition and the results.

I enjoy both IDPA and IPSC/USPSA. The rivalry or bad blood between the two pisses me off. Both are games, both have their strengths and weaknesses, and both are fun. Those that obsess about the results in either are also equally lame.

Typically those that bitch about one or the other are veterans of one, go to shoot the other, and are too damn stupid to understand that it's a different game with different rules, and too damn lazy to take the time to learn the new rules.

IDPA is what I'm more familiar with and it's what I shoot more, but with the last rule change a couple of years ago, frankly I don't even understand their scoring anymore, and never did understand the IPSC scoring. I shoot for me. Of course I look at the scores when they come out, but when I'm there I'm shooting for me, working on the skills I want to work on and improve on.

There's nothing like going to an IPSC match, getting told by everyone and their uncle that "your way isn't competitive", and then beating 2/3 to 3/4 of the field.

Stu · Post by **Stu** » Tue Jan 27, 2009 11:59 am

Gato wrote:Think IDPA.

You'd be at a disadvantage running that set up in production class in a USPSA event.

That is the impression I was under as well.

I'm not really looking to be some champion shooter, I just want to learn how to shoot competently.

I started looking more into ISPC because it seems like there are matches in my area more often.

Thanks for your comment as well Rob.

mx201er · Post by **mx201er** » Wed Jan 28, 2009 10:52 pm

IPSC is a really fun competition, but it is not at all tactical if that is what you are looking for..

Davo5o · Post by **Davo5o** » Wed Jan 28, 2009 11:51 pm

I shoot both, and several others.

IPSC/USPSA is a Run & Gun game, shooting a lot from out in the open. Doesn't have the tactical shooting aspect usually, but way higher round counts, more steel, and you can use race guns all tricked and s--t, with gay ass speed holsters. You can shoot production class or limited or even limited 10 with your rig. 9mm is scored minor, and 40 and up is scored major. Meaning 5 points for center hit, versus 4 points for minor. You only compete against your same class however. I usually shoot limited, but carry concealed and shoot for my own training, and am not interested in winning.

IDPA is a concealed carry game that requires you to shoot from cover, and moving to and from cover. If you have rounds left in the mag, you must retain the mag or get a 3 second penalty. I think it's a stupid rule and most USPSA guys hate it. It's good practice, but it could get you killed in a real gun fight. They also say if you run out of ammo while in the open, you can't begin reloading until behind cover. I also ignore this rule and just take the penalty if it happens. In a real gun fight if I run out of ammo, I'm reloading on the run for cover. Again I shoot for my own training, and say F--k the rules I don't like, even if it cost me some seconds. I usually always win anyway, but could really give a s--t. I just want to be a better shooter, and get as much experience under pressure as possible. Nothing will compare to the real thing unless your shooting simunitions at each other.

I'd say take every opportunity to shoot under pressure you can. It will force you to shoot both handed and on the move. All good skills. I don't think anyone has been killed in a gun fight because they practiced to much?

Stu · Post by **Stu** » Thu Jan 29, 2009 1:31 pm

Thanks Davo. It seems like the 'only reload behind cover' rule is because some people can only concentrate on one thing at a time. So if they're running and trying to reload, they won't put thought into where they are running and perhaps pick "bad" cover. Or someone might be so bad that they would stop running all together to reload. That's just what I'm thinking.

Artful · Post by **Artful** » Thu Jan 29, 2009 2:21 pm

Stu wrote:Thanks Davo. It seems like the 'only reload behind cover' rule is because some people can only concentrate on one thing at a time. So if they're running and trying to reload, they won't put thought into where they are running and perhaps pick "bad" cover. Or someone might be so bad that they would stop running all together to reload. That's just what I'm thinking.

Or if real bullets are flying and you are behind cover would you jump up and go after 'em with a partial loaded gun and NOT top up before leaving cover? - or if you were between cover and ran out would you bother trying to reload of just concentrate on dodging and getting to cover.

IDPA tries to be more real world - where IPSC started from before it became gamemaster central. And Yes I do still own a 14 shot 45 ACP which I got when my buddy changed to the 16 shot 40 before he changed to the 1000 shot 38 super. It's an equipment race which Is why I quit.

Gato · Post by **Gato** » Thu Jan 29, 2009 2:39 pm

rob_s brings up a great point regarding gear and I should have been more supportive.

Gear can make a difference but not to the degree you may think.

I've won production class in 3 of the last 3 matches I've participated in.

My Gear -

Old ass lawn cutting sneakers
Fobus plastic fantastic holster
One old Galco single mag pouch (brown)
One new (carbon fiber) blackhawk single mag pouch
One fobus double mag pouch (black)
Old Galco belt

My production score placed ahead of some of the limited and open shooters. Trust me when I tell you I am not God's gift to shooting and I am generally the best of the worst.

I am shooting the 2009 South Carolina Section Championship and finally decided to gear up for a major match. I doubt it will improve my actual shooting, which is the most important aspect.

I went with USPSA due to the different focus of the game and I tend to have more fun in the USPSA events.

In the end it revolves around the attitude of the RO, and the attitudes of your fellow shooters.

Iâ€™m out there to have fun, learn and compete in that order. Take the first one away and I seriously doubt Iâ€™d go back to that club.

Gato · Post by **Gato** » Thu Jan 29, 2009 2:48 pm

One more thing regarding your goal of "I just want to learn how to shoot competently."

Both will:

Be dynamic (kneeling, sitting, etc.)
Require movement.
Induce stress.
Require presentations.
Require magazine changes.
Force the use of the weak side.
Force you to think.
Force you to act.
Absolutely illuminate your strengths and weaknesses.
Expose you to those that you can learn from and teach.

As such, I think either would benefit your ultimate goal.

ROFuher · Post by **ROFuher** » Mon Feb 02, 2009 7:58 am

You hit dead center GATO. One can practice day in day out and acheive similar goals, but a one 'competition' will accelerate all those points. You will assess a marked improvement with others to measure yourself agaginst. The scale of measrement will never be purfect, but it is a hell of alot more fun then going to an indoor range by your self time after time.

RX7-2nr · Post by **RX7-2nr** » Mon Feb 02, 2009 9:10 pm

you only mention IPSC and IDPA, are you interested in rifle comps at all?

ive shot in some F class and F/TR class matches- long range rifle comps.
id love to try out a 3gun match.

Cortland · Post by **Cortland** » Mon Feb 02, 2009 10:09 pm

Hey where's the love for bowling pin shooting? I think it combines speed and shot placement in a way that NO other pistol competition does. Plus it's got -- if I do say so myself -- a certain retro-chicness about it. It is, by way of analogy, a monster truck rally to IPSC's Formula 1; mud bogging to IDPA's NASCAR. Pick up a copy of Massad Ayoob's "Hit the White Part" if you can. Fun stuff.

Diomed · Post by **Diomed** » Tue Feb 03, 2009 1:18 am

Ain't no bowlin' pin shootin' 'round these parts, boy.

Stu · Post by **Stu** » Tue Feb 03, 2009 1:48 am

RX7-2nr wrote:you only mention IPSC and IDPA, are you interested in rifle comps at all?

Sure, except I don't have a rifle.

Cortland · Post by **Cortland** » Tue Feb 03, 2009 9:33 am

Diomed wrote:Ain't no bowlin' pin shootin' 'round these parts, boy.

Well then you folks have truly lost your way. We gotta keep this dream alive.

If you're in VA, there are regular pin shoots in Wakefield and I believe Richmond. Just get in your car and drive.

dirwin · Post by **dirwin** » Tue Feb 03, 2009 12:13 pm

First things first. Take some time and spectate at both. Both bodies are fun, just different classes and rules. To me IDPA is tactical, IPSC Open Class is like the Jetsons.

The best way to find out what it's like, go watch, meet some of the shooters and then give it a try. I've never run across a shooting club that didn't want new members (at least one you would want to shoot with).

Gato · Post by **Gato** » Tue Feb 03, 2009 12:18 pm

Good call Cortland.

Steel Plate and Pin matches are an absolute riot.

Stu · Post by **Stu** » Tue Feb 03, 2009 12:25 pm

Thanks for the excellent post Gato. I would also love to shoot at bowling pins and steel plates.

Davo5o · Post by **Davo5o** » Tue Feb 03, 2009 12:31 pm

Go to any bowling hall and get the old ones for freeeeeee! If they won't or don't have any, go to the next place. You can get all sorts for free in my experience. I use to use them for practice all the time. fun with handguns and shotguns. Easy/Free practice tools for the back of your truck.