Beware of AZDoug and SRT Arms...

Kevin/AAC · Post by **Kevin/AAC** » Tue Jul 19, 2005 8:50 pm

He claimed and advertises his Matrix 9mm suppressor as doing low 30'sdB reduction. He insisted that I (as a dealer) had to pay the retail price of $495. I sent him a check two months ago. He later admits, on this board, that the Matrix only offers 26dB reduction with commercially available ammo. I then asked for a refund, he ignored my first four requests. Two months go by and I have not received a copy of the paperwork, the suppressor/moderator, or a refund. He finally responds today by emailing me that "there are no refunds" and "all sales are final." Be careful when dealing with AZDoug. He has lied to me several times about what was going on.

Kevin

AZDoug · Post by **AZDoug** » Wed Jul 20, 2005 3:01 am

I believe this is called libel.

I have printed it out.

Please be aware silencertests.com is complicit in this also by allowing this.

Additionally, Kevin at AAC has physically threatened me in private e-mails.

That is subject to criminal prosecution.

Kevin: grow up. You remind me of the 9 year old kid with the squirt gun at the family picnick, who goes around shooting everybody with water just so people will notice him, because he feel inferior.

Everybody else in this industry gets along fine, except you. Nobody else lies about me or threatens me except you. You seem to have this problem with eveybody else in the industry also.

You have a decent product, and a decent business, why don't you just go run your business like everybody else does and ignore your competitors if your stuff is so good? There is some casual competition in the industry, and occasional jabs at each other, but that is in jest.

You do not understand that. Your posts and e-mails are threats. And you know it when you boast you can afford the legal defense.

There are laws against that.

Doug

IceHandLuke · Post by **IceHandLuke** » Wed Jul 20, 2005 5:23 am

Well getting ripped off is worse than getting called names I say.
Scum bag, oh sorry I forgot, this is America, we can’t protect our hard earned dollar anymore or call people names, it hurts their feelings.

Post by **silencertalk** » Wed Jul 20, 2005 7:04 am

AZDoug wrote:I believe this is called libel.

Please be aware silencertests.com is complicit in this also by allowing this.

Its not libel, but whatever. Pool your money with the other companies who have said they are going to sue me.

People are going to watch how you handle this so try not to think short term.

Kevin/AAC · Post by **Kevin/AAC** » Wed Jul 20, 2005 8:32 am

So, you lying and stealing from me is justifiable? I personally could not care less what anyone with your lack of integrity thinks about me.

What will you do to remedy this situation?

It is sad to me that you would rather threaten Robert and this website than be honest and do the right thing. What I posted is not liable, anyway.

Dishonest people always avoid the question that was asked and try to divert attention to some unimportant personal attack. Will your follow up post be about my mother, again?

All you have to do to end this is refund my money, or ship the moderator.

Kevin

Kevin/AAC · Post by **Kevin/AAC** » Wed Jul 20, 2005 8:35 am

Author Message
Kevin/AAC
Senior Silent Operator

Joined: 25 Apr 2005
Posts: 104
Location: ATL
Posted: Wed Jul 13, 2005 5:54 pm Post subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

AZDoug wrote:
Kevin/AAC wrote:
AZDoug wrote:
Kevin/AAC wrote:
-26dB for the Matrix???

Sell me an EVO-9.

I will have it tested out here, by disinterested parties against the Matrix., and publish the results.

Did you send that check out for the Matrix yet?

Thanks,
Doug

Doug,

I am not certain if you have our correct mailing address, or not? You have told me that you mailed two checks for the Evolution-9, yet we have not received either. Are you backing out of the purchase? I have emailed and have not received a response.
Have you transfered the Matrix suppressor that we purchased? It has been a while and we have not heard anything.

Our correct mailing address is:

AAC
3100 Five Forks Trickum Rd SW
Ste 201
Lilburn, GA 30047

Please respond.

So, sales must be pretty bad if you are hounding your competitors to buy your cans? Do you hassle all of your customers this way?

I sent out one check. I never said I sent out a replacement. I found another source for your can, at dealer price rather than full retail like you wanted me to pay.

Plus, this way, I am assured of getting a regular can, and not a tricked up version. It will get tested independently. If the results are favorable to my Matrix, I will have the results posted. If they are not favorable, I will simply clone your EVO-9 and bypass all that messy R&D.

Doug

Inbox :: Message
From: AZDoug
To: Kevin/AAC
Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2005 1:39 pm
Subject: Re: $
Yes, i did 2 weeks ago.

The bank says it hasn't cleared.

I will send out another one. If the first one arrives, tear it up and send me an e-mail that you did so.

thanks,
Doug

I would not normally post a private email or pm, but since you are going to engage in the same unethical behavior here that got you banned form www.subguns.com, I have no choice. The above is a message that you sent me 06/14/05.

I tried to find a Matrix at dealer cost (since you insisted I pay retail), but no one seems to carry them. I recently saw and metered a few or your suppressors and I now have no interest in your Matrix suppressor. Since I sent you the check over two months ago, and have not heard anything, I would like a refund. I sent you an email several days ago requesting that you return the purchase price, but you have not responded.

I do not mind if clone the Evolution-9, but I do not think that you have the ability to make them your garage. You may have to out source to a larger shop, it is pretty complex in comparison. The booster is the only part of the silencer with patent consideration, so the rest is yours if you like. If you don't want to license our A.S.A.P., you could contact Phil or Joe about the L.O.U.D. recoil device.

Thanks for finally disclosing some of the truth about the check. I will sell the Evolution-9 to another customer.

I do not understand your statement about a "tricked up" version...why wouldn't we just build them all that way?

As long as we are talking about messy R&D, did you submit a can for the SCAR testing?

Thanks,
Kevin

WiseOne · Post by **WiseOne** » Wed Jul 20, 2005 5:19 pm

i don't think you can do much with an email that contains some threats, put that up in front of a judge, he will tell you he would have threaten you to if you stole his money..... i read some of the situtation in the other thread and now everything that kevin posted..

AzDoug, i think you need to man up, and pay your due's. You know he payed you, you know you didn't deliver so whats the problem? all sales are final? what kind of BS is that?

IceHandLuke · Post by **IceHandLuke** » Wed Jul 20, 2005 5:51 pm

I am dealing with the same thing from a guy name Mike Ludwig with ML Security products. He had a mac 10 power springs inbound to him last september when I bought it from him. Its now been over nine months, he still does not have the items in his hands and he keeps telling me he will not get an ATF status on the items and will not retun my money because all sales are final. I dont even have the stuff in my hands and he does not have them in his. What sale took place I say. I think he never had them inbound and only bought them from the guy after he knew he had a sale on his side. I cant drive 2000 miles to sue him for 3000 bucks. Trying to drag the guy in the mud as much as I can.

Post by **silencertalk** » Wed Jul 20, 2005 8:19 pm

Can't you file small claims in your home state? I went after a gun manufacture, who never gave me a product or a refund, in my home state. It was a lot more money than that so I had to use full court.

IceHandLuke · Post by **IceHandLuke** » Wed Jul 20, 2005 8:39 pm

Well can I do that? I was going to look into it but not sure if it would have to be in the state where the transaction was hosted or not.

Post by **silencertalk** » Wed Jul 20, 2005 9:47 pm

Yeah, cause they did business by selling to your state. The downside is your state cannot enforce it against him. So after you win, you need to have it transferred to his state. It would not be worth it financially -- you would have to do it for justice. What you are doing -- telling your story -- might be the best way to go. My friend created a web site to say he was unhappy with a car dealer and his airplane's manufacturer. One or both of them sued him for libel and lost because he just told his story as it happened and how he believed it to be true. They can't prove you are 'unhappy' with their service.

David Hineline · Post by **David Hineline** » Wed Jul 20, 2005 10:35 pm

What AZdoug did on subguns to get banned did not resemble this action in any way. It was something very different.

If something was paid for, and not delivered then monies should be refunded or in-store credit towards other inventory if funds are not available.

Also in a public forum where the people posting are in no way required to register with valid personal information, where posts by these people are not posted only after approval of a site administrator. Where anyone with a CB handle can post any message they so choose, I believe you will have a hard time proving complicity against a site administrator.

Silencer Wars Comming to a Theater Near you This Summer

Post by **silencertalk** » Wed Jul 20, 2005 11:11 pm

David Hineline wrote:Also in a public forum where the people posting are in no way required to register with valid personal information, where posts by these people are not posted only after approval of a site administrator. Where anyone with a CB handle can post any message they so choose, I believe you will have a hard time proving complicity against a site administrator.

Yes, I looked up case law for it. As you all know, there are thousands of these web boards. Thousands of people complain about thousands of companies on them all the time. There has been exactly ZERO libel wins under similar circumstances. The reason my $1 million in libel insurance is so amazingly cheap is because there is no history of people winning libel cases. If the board is sued for libel, my insurance company would pay for their lawyers to defend me. The person or company who sued would have to prove that I was making a statement I knew was untrue (hard to prove) and that I did it to hurt them. Now this is not really possible to do, and it is assuming I made the statement. Now if someone else makes the statement, how do I know it is untrue? I totally believe what Kevin is saying is true. Now imagine you have to prove I am lying by saying that and therefore conspired with him to libel someone simply by not removing his post -- and you have to pay your lawyers $250 to $1000 an hour and I have to pay nothing? I am really not worried about libel because it is not in my nature to make up a falsehood about a company. So it is not something I could do accidentaly or willingly.

AZDoug · Post by **AZDoug** » Thu Jul 21, 2005 2:29 pm

Robert: Your pockets are not as deep as you think they are, relatively speaking.

Lawsuits are messy and expensive, and they only people that benefit are the lawyers. Plus, everybody get dragged into the mess, poor Matt Pallett, your ISP/webhousting client, etc., they would all need lawyers of their own. All they do is cost everybody money

Why don’t you just follow your own rules instead, which is what my point was, and put a stop to these personal attacks. A fairly benign post of mine about Kevin’s rude,churlish behavior was deleted, while Kevin’s untruthful, hateful posts about others are allowed to stand.

Is that because he is your best friend, while I have questioned your test methods?

It is really hard for you to say you are objective, and have people believe you, when your best buddy is a suppressor manufacturer, and you show him favorable treatment. It makes one wonder about your test result validity.

Kevin: What on earth is your problem? Is your company so in need of money that it has to cancel an order? I don’t even think about $500, that is way below chump change. You are the one that said you would buy it, and of course the reason you wanted to buy it was to prove how much better your can was. You came to me, wanting me to supply a can, and I said sure, but not for free. And now you are standing on your soap box calling me names, and stating untrue things about me because I won’t cancel an order? It is not like you are a real customer that had to move, or lost a job or something. It costs me money to fill out forms, follow up with ATF, etc, on a transfer, so unless there is a real reason, orders are not simply cancelled, and your having a fit because I bought your can at dealer price thru another party, is not a real reason.

I e-mailed you the serial number of the can and told you to call ATF and inquire about it., I asked for your fax number to fax you a copy of the paperwork, but you didn’t respond, you have the serial number, call ATF and ask about it’s status. And you call me a liar? I never insisted you pay full retail, I quoted you a price and you paid it, you didn’t ask for a dealer price, as I recall.

You know damn well i can't send you your can until ATF approves the transfer,a nd you can check as easily as i can, that the transfer is pending. Just becuse it is taking longer than you want, through no fault of my own, is not a reason to cancel.

I never lied to you, I sent you a check, and it either got lost, or misdirected in the mail, or maybe even accidentally throw away at your office; about the time I was getting ready to send a replacement, I figured that why should I be stupid enough to pay full retail, so I found a dealer to sell me one at a good price. Now you call me a liar because I bought one through a different source? Excuse me? I have people call me up all the time, and say they will buy something direct at retail, but then buy it through a dealer at a discount. I don’t call my customers liars because they found a cheaper source.

Does it really make you feel better to send me e-mails telling me your stuff is the best, and that everything I make is garbage? What is the point in that, do you really think I would believe you, or are you just trying to convince yourself of that? The customers that send me AAC cans to upgrade seem to share an opposite opinion.

If AAC is so large, and several times bigger than Gemtech, as you claim, why are you even bothering with this petty BS at all? Surely, you must have better things to do than harass your competitors if AAC is so large. (I mean, AWC, Knight and B&T don’t send me e-mails telling me how good their stuff is). However, based on the low serial numbers on the AAC cans (made, or at least transferred in the past 15 months), sent to me to modify or upgrade, AAC can’t be that big. I have doubts that you even do half of Gemtechs volume.

I honestly cannot figure out if you are so antagonistic to everybody.

Maybe professional help can let you become a person that treats others with respect instead of disdain and contempt. You will be happier, and healthier for it. Or take a long vacation, or just concentrate on your business, and ignore what everybody else does.

Doug

AZDoug · Post by **AZDoug** » Thu Jul 21, 2005 2:37 pm

IceHandLuke wrote:I am dealing with the same thing from a guy name Mike Ludwig with ML Security products. He had a mac 10 power springs inbound to him last september when I bought it from him. Its now been over nine months, he still does not have the items in his hands and he keeps telling me he will not get an ATF status on the items and will not retun my money because all sales are final. I dont even have the stuff in my hands and he does not have them in his. What sale took place I say. I think he never had them inbound and only bought them from the guy after he knew he had a sale on his side. I cant drive 2000 miles to sue him for 3000 bucks. Trying to drag the guy in the mud as much as I can.

You are not dealing with the same thing at all.

I submitted the tranfer paperwork to ATF May 19, it went pending (IIRC) on May 26th. Transfer had not yet been approved as of last week, which was the last time I checked

Call them and ask about the can to Pallet Associates, SN is 0205-1829.

So, instead of jumping on the bandwagon right away, why don't you consider the source of where the complaint came from...

The only way I can comply with Kevins demands to send hin his can, it to break teh law, and HE is not getting a refund simply because ATf is pokey about transfers.

Doug

Edited to add: The transfer to Pallet was approved July 15th, last Friday. It should be here any day.

Doug

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Thu Jul 21, 2005 2:52 pm

In my experience you guys both make great products. Additionally I am a general consumer that is not affiliated with law enforcement or anyone that has a ligitimate reason to have a suppressor other than as a toy. Since my suppressor purchases are not based on politics I can tell you that reading seemingly petty stuff like this on a public forum that was designed to be educational is a little disheartening. Threads like this make me want to find another company to support. I don't have a beef with either of you and I have been impressed by several models from each company in the last couple of months but you guys sound like kids. Have your disagreement privately. I may be the only person that feels this way but this kind of thread always puts a bad taste in my mouth regardless of who is at fault. I make my purchases based on this kind of thing.

Rob

AZDoug · Post by **AZDoug** » Thu Jul 21, 2005 3:21 pm

pilatuspilot wrote:In my experience you guys both make great products. Additionally I am a general consumer that is not affiliated with law enforcement or anyone that has a ligitimate reason to have a suppressor other than as a toy. Since my suppressor purchases are not based on politics I can tell you that reading seemingly petty stuff like this on a public forum that was designed to be educational is a little disheartening. Threads like this make me want to find another company to support. I don't have a beef with either of you and I have been impressed by several models from each company in the last couple of months but you guys sound like kids. Have your disagreement privately. I may be the only person that feels this way but this kind of thread always puts a bad taste in my mouth regardless of who is at fault. I make my purchases based on this kind of thing.

Rob

You are absoluetly right. It leaves a bad taste in my mouth also, however, I have to either ignore it, and leave the impression Kevin is telling the truth, or rebut it. Though maybe I should keep my editorial out of it.

That siad, the thread should have never have been started, which is what my complaint is about, or once it was started, it should have been nuked due to it's inflamatory, nature and lack of truth. It was started expressly to cause trouble, and sling mud, as Kevin was fully aware of all the info he needed to check on the status.

Doug

Post by **silencertalk** » Thu Jul 21, 2005 3:49 pm

AZDoug wrote:Robert: Your pockets are not as deep as you think they are, relatively speaking.

Lawsuits are messy and expensive, and they only people that benefit are the lawyers. Plus, everybody get dragged into the mess, poor Matt Pallett, your ISP/webhousting client, etc., they would all need lawyers of their own. All they do is cost everybody money

Why don’t you just follow your own rules instead, which is what my point was, and put a stop to these personal attacks. A fairly benign post of mine about Kevin’s rude,churlish behavior was deleted, while Kevin’s untruthful, hateful posts about others are allowed to stand.

Is that because he is your best friend, while I have questioned your test methods?

A threat has negative incentive for me. Meaning, it makes me less likely to do what is demanded.

Not sure why you are threatening Matt now.

I have only deleted one post on this board, and it was you talking about Kevin's mother. I guess you found the line and crossed it. BTW, Kevin never asked me to delete it. And I was not aware I posted rules on the board.

AZDoug · Post by **AZDoug** » Thu Jul 21, 2005 5:00 pm

rsilvers wrote:
AZDoug wrote:Robert: Your pockets are not as deep as you think they are, relatively speaking.

Lawsuits are messy and expensive, and they only people that benefit are the lawyers. Plus, everybody get dragged into the mess, poor Matt Pallett, your ISP/webhousting client, etc., they would all need lawyers of their own. All they do is cost everybody money

Why don’t you just follow your own rules instead, which is what my point was, and put a stop to these personal attacks. A fairly benign post of mine about Kevin’s rude,churlish behavior was deleted, while Kevin’s untruthful, hateful posts about others are allowed to stand.

Is that because he is your best friend, while I have questioned your test methods?
A threat has negative incentive for me. Meaning, it makes me less likely to do what is demanded.

Not sure why you are threatening Matt now.

I have only deleted one post on this board, and it was you talking about Kevin's mother. I guess you found the line and crossed it. BTW, Kevin never asked me to delete it. And I was not aware I posted rules on the board.

I am not threatening Matt now. I was simply stating what I said, lawsuits are expensive for everbody. I never threatened to sue you, or Matt. I originally stated the what KB posted was libel, it wasn't true, and that you were complicit in allowing untrue posts to stay up. I wanted to know why posts of mine complaining about KB's behavior were removed , again while the original cheap shots at me were allowed to stay right above the removed posts. ( BTW, you removed two posts of mine, and i wasn't talking *about* his mother, I was questioning about KB's lack of manners and questioned if he had proper upbringing or not) a cheap shot of my own, that I am guilty of, but I am not the one starting the problems here.

You, or Matt is selective on what is removed, depending on who posted it and who it is about.

I was also making an informational point that when lawsuits are filed, everybody gets named, and it costs everybody money, so it is generally in everybodies best interest to make sure that libelous statements are not tolerated, whether you have rules, or not. I guess I was confusing another board that doesn't allow attacks, in their rules, with this one.

It is all probably pointless anyway, as most of the 40 or 50 people that read this board, already know who to believe and who not to, anyway. I personally find myself too busy to pay much attention to web boards anymore, and only visit most of them maybe once a week or so.

Doug

10mmshooter · Post by **10mmshooter** » Thu Jul 21, 2005 5:34 pm

Those posting that are in the business should be asking themselves "HOW DOES THIS HELP MY FUTURE DEALINGS."

David Hineline · Post by **David Hineline** » Thu Jul 21, 2005 7:35 pm

Doug if you could talk one of your customers with the upgraded AAC product into sending one to Robert for testing, then he could publish the date compared to the original product he most likely tested all ready. It would be good for your business to document on a website such as this how much the sound measurements improved over the original manuf. design.

Post by **silencertalk** » Thu Jul 21, 2005 8:34 pm

AZDoug wrote: It is all probably pointless anyway, as most of the 40 or 50 people that read this board, already know who to believe and who not to, anyway.

Doug

I just checked my web server stats. A lot of this must be links to the photo galleries and other stuff:

Monthly Statistics for July 2005

Total Hits 888327
Total Files 577790
Total Pages 132734
Total Visits 32683
Total KBytes 16319032
Total Unique Sites 24329
Total Unique URLs 4870
Total Unique Referrers 2577
Total Unique User Agents 1864

. Avg Max
Hits per Hour 1762 6207
Hits per Day 42301 54490
Files per Day 27513 33398
Pages per Day 6320 8200
Visits per Day 1556 1976
KBytes per Day 777097 1301214

IceHandLuke · Post by **IceHandLuke** » Thu Jul 21, 2005 9:09 pm

1/2 that is from me

Kevin/AAC · Post by **Kevin/AAC** » Fri Jul 22, 2005 11:19 am

AZDoug-

I am sorry, but I did not completely read all of your follow up posts. But, most of what I did see was completely false. I have not lied, I have only stated facts. You never sent the serial number to me, etc. It doesn't matter to me now, all I wanted was resolution. And if you are now offering it by saying that the ATF has approved the transfer and you will be shipping the product...then the problem is resolved.

Kevin

mpallett · Post by **mpallett** » Fri Jul 22, 2005 12:55 pm

AZDoug wrote:[
You, or Matt is selective on what is removed, depending on who posted it and who it is about.

I have only pulled one post, and that was a duplicate. I don't believe that Robert has pulled any other than the one he mentions in this thread. I don't believe there is any "selective moderation" going on.

Beware of AZDoug and SRT Arms...

Beware of AZDoug and SRT Arms...

AZDoug and Subguns

Re: AZDoug and Subguns

An intereesting comparison could be done