All about Titanium

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All about Titanium

Post by silencertalk » Sun Sep 24, 2006 7:03 pm

Here are some references.

http://www.azom.com/details.asp?ArticleID=1341
http://www.supraalloys.com/astm_grades.htm

I thought it needed to be cleared up that Grade-2 Titanium is not a good material for rifle suppressors. Not only is the strength to weight ratio not significantly better than 304 Stainless Steel, but it also has high-temp issues.

Here are some key facts:

Yield Strength per unit of density (x106N.m.kg-1):

18/8 (300) SS: 68
Grade-2 Ti: 78 (about 14% better than Stainless, but worse at high temps).
Grade-5 Ti: 206 (2.64 times better than Grade-2).



Image


Notice that they only chart Grade-2 out to about 400 degrees C. That is in the 700 degrees F range. If you remember from my SCAR-SD torture test, I brought the can up to 1550 degrees F (on the outside of the tube). A Grade-2 Ti can will fail in as little as one magazine of full auto unless it is made to an unusual thickness.

Grade 23 Ti is a version of Grade-5 which has extra low interstitial for higher facture resistance which makes it ideal for pressure vessels (silencer tubing) while Grade-5 is best for baffles.

Grade-9 has some use.

Grade-2 Ti in a rifle suppressor is a gimmick. In a pistol or subgun suppressor it will allow enough thickness to have nice threading and still be light.

When a silencer company says they are using Titanium, ask what grade it is. If they do not specify, there is a high likelihood it is just Grade-2.

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Post by KLM » Sun Sep 24, 2006 7:54 pm

Rsilvers,

I'm curious what do you mean by "A Grade-2 Ti can will fail..."

What is the failure mode? That is, does the can heat up and lose it's shape causing baffle strikes? Does it crack? Do holes get melted in the tubing wall?


It is my experience that grade 5 and 23 Ti are what is typically used in aerospace applications. Grade 23 is typically used where one wants greater durability and damage tolerance capability, better crack initiation and crack growth properties, that sort of thing. It is annealed a little different if I remember correctly.

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Post by silencertalk » Sun Sep 24, 2006 8:07 pm

By fail I mean buckle, bend, etc.

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Post by faust » Sun Sep 24, 2006 8:21 pm

thanks for the info rsilvers.

Any info on which grade(s) AWC uses in their '100% titanium' suppressors?

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Post by silencertalk » Sun Sep 24, 2006 8:40 pm

I wish I knew what:

AWC uses.
Gemtech uses.
Jet uses.
Shark uses.
STW uses.

As people find out, post what you learn here. I am impressed with Grade-5/23 Titanium for non-full auto cans.

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Post by Paranoia » Sun Sep 24, 2006 9:25 pm

Gemtech’s G5 says it rated for FA and I guess they are implying its grade 5 since it's named that.

Interesting info Silvers

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Post by silencertalk » Sun Sep 24, 2006 9:42 pm

Gemtech says it is rated for 'Limited full auto.'

Could be either.

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Post by HandyMan » Sun Sep 24, 2006 10:16 pm

I must also add that titanium has issues with increased reactivity at high temperatures. Above approx. 700 degrees titanium begins to oxidise and has an increase in the absorption of Hydrogen. This leads to embrittlement and surface cracking. There are a few grades rated to 1000 degrees but they are not made in tube form. A full auto rated titanium suppressor does not exist. For bolt action rifles(and maybe moderate semi) titanium is fine.

Titanium is not expensive because it is rare. It is actually a very common element found in the crust. The processing of titanium from ore is extremely expensive due to the above mentioned reactivity at high temperature. Much of the processing must be done in an inert atmosphere, which adds huge expense and complexity.

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Post by Paranoia » Sun Sep 24, 2006 10:25 pm

I was suprised myself
The suppressor is rated for fully automatic fire.

http://www.gem-tech.com/G5.html

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Post by silencertalk » Sun Sep 24, 2006 10:34 pm

http://www.subguns.com/boards/mgmsgarch ... ead=563651

Someone posted that the owner's manual says 'limited full auto.'

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Post by [cerberus] » Mon Sep 25, 2006 12:11 am

Has anyone tried a form of carbide, or a form of tool steel?

There are certain forms of tool stell that are designed to work in elevated temps, such as casting. it might be heavy as a SOB but would withstand the elevated temps it is stong stuff.

It is hard to find a magic material that is light, strong, and temp resistant. What AAC is using now seems to be working very well witht he videos from your tests.

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Post by chrismartin » Mon Sep 25, 2006 12:11 pm

[cerberus] wrote:Has anyone tried a form of carbide, or a form of tool steel?
Or what about ceramics. I guess they can be towards the brittle end sometimes, but they sure can take the heat.

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Post by silencertalk » Mon Sep 25, 2006 12:34 pm

Stainless and Inconel 718 seem to be the best overall materials.

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Post by chrismartin » Mon Sep 25, 2006 1:10 pm

Just FYI... Inconel Info ('cause I had to look it up)

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Post by Paranoia » Mon Sep 25, 2006 6:06 pm

The Gemtech website says full auto and the manual says limited :(

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Post by #93 » Mon Sep 25, 2006 11:01 pm

Gem-Tech has always said that *any* 223 can should not be used for heavy full auto fire because of the bullets. Gem-Tech contends that after about 90 rounds of full auto fire the lead in the bullets begins to soften and eventually melt. Due to this phenomenon the bullets can become unstable and/or break apart either of which can cause suppressor damage.

Some may say this is a Gem-Tech ploy, I find it surprising myself, but I have always found Dr. Dater to be a straight shooter and take his findings at face value. Gem-Tech knows that mechanical devices have limitations they try to inform their customers of those limitations since they don’t make extraordinary claims about what their cans can do, while making a top notch product, you rarely see an upset Gem-Tech customer.

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Post by silencertalk » Mon Sep 25, 2006 11:05 pm

Are you kidding?

While there is truth to the fact that the risk of baffle strikes goes up as you overheat a barrel, their can also has several design characteristics that limit their durability for full auto use such as internal springs, use of Titanium, glued-on end caps, etc.

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Post by #93 » Mon Sep 25, 2006 11:45 pm

rsilvers wrote:Are you kidding?

While there is truth to the fact that the risk of baffle strikes goes up as you overheat a barrel, their can also has several design characteristics that limit their durability for full auto use such as internal springs, use of Titanium, glued-on end caps, etc.
No I am not kidding.

OK you and Dater agree the risk of baffle strikes increase as a barrel overheats. So I don’t see the problem.

I have not seen or heard of a problem with the Gem-Tech spring in the mount. Have you? What material is it made of or are you assuming it is inferior? I have seen an external spring fail on a M249SAW at the silencer shoot and read about similar occurrences on this site.

What grade Titanium do they use? Do you know the specs on the can or are you again assuming that it is inferior?

I believe their end caps are laser welded on. They used to do a short weld and now weld the entire circumference. They may use locktite on 22 cans but a 22 can don’t need to be welded.

They fully weld the core on their cans and told me they are getting 20 thousandths penetration with their laser welder you are so skeptical of. Do you have any reason to not believe them?

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Post by Sid Post » Tue Sep 26, 2006 1:19 am

#93 wrote:I believe their end caps are laser welded on. They used to do a short weld and now weld the entire circumference. They may use locktite on 22 cans but a 22 can don’t need to be welded.
Gem-Tech would due "custom" end caps at one time. I do not know if they would do that today but, when I was in the market and asked about not having my end cap welded or permanently locktite'd on, they said they could do that but, were very specific as to how the order had to written since it was essentially a special "one of" sort of thing.

For customer service, Gem-Tech and Dr, Dater set one of the highest standards in the industry. I have had Dr, Dater respond to more then one post of mine on www.subguns.com in years past when I was a total newbie. When I called Gem-Tech, I normally spoke with Dr. Dater personally who answered my silly questions politely and professionally. Later my questions improved and were more technical and specific and I received the same courteous professional treatment.

How many newbie's receive that kind of service from other companies? There is one major suppressor maker I do not spend money with because I was treated badly by the owner. They build good stuff I will never own because of a string of very bad conversations that were not appropriate for the questions I asked.

I don't know if I would ever get into a Gem-Tech versus whoever argument as to which is better. I see a lot of people trashing Trinity suppressors but, some people like them for what they are.

I have demo'ed an AAC Evo-45 versus a Gem-Tech Blackside and Gem-Tech Halo versus an AAC Omni. Each has subtleties that were better or worse then the other depending on the shooter or the bystander and what they intended to do with the can. I'm buying AAC stuff right now but, I could easily have purchased some Gem-Tech products and been very happy.

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barrel stress.

Post by Johnson » Tue Sep 26, 2006 7:14 am

most barrels are stressed.

when heated barrels will wander from a little to a lot depending on the barrel.


Apparently the POI can shift significantly pre and post fluting on barrels.

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Post by silencertalk » Tue Sep 26, 2006 7:41 am

#93 wrote:
OK you and Dater agree the risk of baffle strikes increase as a barrel overheats. So I don’t see the problem.
Shooting a can also increases the risk of a baffle strike. While that applies to all silencers, there are still design features you can implement to make the can more suitable for full auto.
I have not seen or heard of a problem with the Gem-Tech spring in the mount. Have you? What material is it made of or are you assuming it is inferior? I have seen an external spring fail on a M249SAW at the silencer shoot and read about similar occurrences on this site.
I brought the inside of my can up to above 1550 degrees. Springs are not rated for that. That outside rear area of the M4-2000 does not get as hot as inside the can so it is safer to put a spring there than inside the blast area.
What grade Titanium do they use? Do you know the specs on the can or are you again assuming that it is inferior?
No Titanium or Ti alloy is a good choice for full auto cans. I am not sure what grade they use. Please ask them and post what they say.
I believe their end caps are laser welded on. They used to do a short weld and now weld the entire circumference. They may use locktite on 22 cans but a 22 can don’t need to be welded.
They do not do full penetration welds. The laser weld is a surface weld to keep the threads from unscrewing which is obvious from the width of the weld. Welds are typically not much deeper than they are wide so just look at it.
They fully weld the core on their cans and told me they are getting 20 thousandths penetration with their laser welder you are so skeptical of. Do you have any reason to not believe them?
20 thousands is only 1/5 the thickness of an M4-2000 tube (which AAC welds to 100% depth). It is a very possible depth, depending on how much time they want the weld to take and spot-size.
Last edited by silencertalk on Tue Sep 26, 2006 8:33 am, edited 12 times in total.

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Post by silencertalk » Tue Sep 26, 2006 7:44 am

Sid Post wrote: When I called Gem-Tech, I normally spoke with Dr. Dater personally
Yes, that is nice and it happens when you are the only one home.

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Post by Paranoia » Tue Sep 26, 2006 9:29 am

I would have to agree with Gemtech's customer service is awesome.

I do like my M4-96D. here is the old disclamer for info purposes

Suppressors shown with or designed for machine guns are rated for fully automatic fire. In the case of suppressors designed for .223 (5.56mm), there are some limitations in the duration of fully automatic fire due to shortcomings in the ammunition, not the suppressor. 5.56mm is a unique cartridge. The projectile is physically small and lightweight. The relatively high muzzle velocity causes excessive barrel heating from friction, with outside barrel temperatures exceeding 700° F in a 100 round burst. Bore temperature is considerably higher. The projectile contains a small quantity of lead, which after a 90 round burst starts to soften and/or melt. The softening of the lead core results in geometric instability of the projectile, causing excessive yawing, tumbling, and suppressor baffle contact. These effects are not normally seen anywhere near this early in larger caliber projectiles, such as 7.62 NATO. Although the suppressor is capable of withstanding long bursts using ammunition not containing any lead, any lead containing 5.56mm ammunition will damage the suppressor. Because of the deleterious heating effect, most weapon manufacturers place serious limitations on sustained fully automatic fire and state that the barrel is ruined after a 200 round burst.

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Post by Paranoia » Tue Sep 26, 2006 9:31 am

SO what kind of problems would one have with titanium threads?

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Post by silencertalk » Tue Sep 26, 2006 9:36 am

Ti threads on a .22lr or 5.56mm?

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