Lever Action?

[Lindenwood]

Ok, I have been looking into lever-actions ($350-$600 new) for SHTF and perhaps some hunting purposes (and plinking and such). The main reason is to be able to get a powerful cartridge in an accurate repeater on a budget, as the next step up from 7.62x39 or .223 in an autoloader are the $1500+ .308s. I was thinking something like a .44 mag or maybe a .45-70. I like the .44mag for the simple and cheaper reloading (can share powder with my 9mm, for example), the higher capacity for the same sized rifle over the .45-70, and the greater ammo availability. However, the power potential of the .45-70, as we know, is way up there, and it seems to possibly be a more accurate cartridge than the .44mag (just based on a bit of research between the two).

The obvious disadvantages over modern semi-autos are the slow total reloads (though they can be kept topped-off forever) and the obviously slower rate of rapid fire (though aimed fire isn't that much slower with a little practice).

However, there are notable advantages of a powerful lever-action over a similarly-priced semi-auto.

The Ak47 and SKS can easily match the ruggedness of a well-built lever rifle, and the 7.62x39 cartridge can rival the terminal ballistics of hot-loaded .44mags (we're talking rifle barrel lengths) and mild .45-70 loads. However the lever-action can shoot 1-2" groups at 100 yards with a scope, while an AK might be limited to 3-4" at best with its coarse iron sights (wouldn't want to try one of those after-thought scope mounts for them).

On the other hand, rifles like the KelTec Su16s can much more closely match the accuracy of a decent lever-action, but are arguably not nearly as rugged, and the power of the .223 cartridge compared to the heavy large-bore loads is definitely not there.

There are other advantages I see, that may or may not apply to everyone. For one, I like that I won't have to worry about maintaining or losing magazines, which is more important to me in a survival scenario. Secondly, I also really like the ability to keep a small pocket full of subsonic loads for dead-quiet suppressed shots without any changes to the functionality or reliability of the gun. I'd have the ability to upload a single subsonic round for a quick quiet shot on a single threat, or load the whole magazine if stealth is a larger concern. And, those subsonic loads would be FAR more devastating at ranges inside 100 yards than subsonic .223, and still much more so than a subsonic .30cal.

In a nutshell, with the lever-action I could get both power AND accuracy in a still-viable primary weapon, whereas I would have to sacrifice at least one of those traits to some degree to move to a semi-auto.


Keep in mind, we are talking about someone by himself or in a small group, perhaps on foot, and just trying to survive various plausible threats. We aren't talking about SWAT operations, wartime battlefields, or 500-yard sniping. If I were to get a semi-auto rifle in this price range, it would probably be an SU16 because I'd prefer the increased accuracy of it over the slightly increased power of the Aks / SKSs. I probably wouldn't get too crazy with the magazines, and would probably only carry maybe 30-40 rounds loaded (perhaps three 10rd mags or two 20rd mags), largely so I could stuff the empties back into the stock when reloading to avoid dropping them if on the run. So, think more along the lines of a lone survivor (not a guerrila, either), and try not to make capacity comparisons to the 8x-30rd battle loadout of a modern soldier, heh.


What do you guys think?

[kwin201]

seems logical, i dont have much experience with them but i feel like i would fumble with the individual rounds in a stressfull situation such as combat

[ThePatriot]

I would go with the .44 for ammo cost/availability.Given the scenarios you described it seems like a very viable option. With practice a lever gun can definitely be fast and accurate as well. An AR15 in 6.8 SPC would be worth looking into.

[Lindenwood]

So you guys think the increased power (in realistic hunting and shooting distances under ~200 yards) is worth the sacrifice in total firepower with a semi-auto rifle with 10-20rds per mag?

[ThePatriot]

No, I do not. I like the capacity, accuracy, and shooter friendly platform of ARs and other semi-auto rifles. Once you get out past 100 yards you will most likely want something flatter shooting with a higher velocity than a .44 or .45-70.

[mudshark]

All I know is I want a Henry "Big Boy" in .44 real, real bad.

I looked at Marlin (felt cheap), Puma (felt cheap), and two others whose name escapes me right now, and the Henry felt the most "solid" by a considerable margin. These were all rack guns, with lots of handling.

What sucks is the Henry is also the most expensive. But that's the one I'm getting.

[jlwilliams]

I think the lever action is a great platform. The fact that it has been the bread and butter of hunting rifle selection means something. It's just a practical rifle. 44 mag vs 45-70 is a tough call. Both are great rounds. 45-70 has the edge as far as power but 44 is just fine and you can put a bunch of them in your pocket. I wouldn't overlook the 30-30 or the 35rem (a little harder to resupply ammo, but a great round).

If you want it as a survival rifle, consider a takedown. The ability to take it apart and conceal it may one day be the thing that keeps you from getting shot. Best way to survive a gunfight is to not be in one. Hiding the gun may well keep you out of a gunfight you don't want to be in. Maybe have a jacked sewed up with two pockets inside for the two halves.

That leads to another great thing about a lever action vs an 'assault weapon'. Should you find yourself in a situation that leads to court (even if "TSHF" people will be held accountable for what they do) a guy with a hunting rifle may be more defendable that a guy with a black rifle. May or may not be a huge difference. Fact is, a guy with an AK looks like an insurgent. A guy with a lever action looks like an honest man trying to feed his family. Don't make your lawyer's job harder than it needs to be.

[mudshark]

If things have degraded to the point where I'm carrying a rifle around and faced with the possiblity of or are actively shooting people, the last thing I'm worrying about is going to court.

I'm going to be completely occupied with living in the RIGHT NOW. The RIGHT NOW. Not the hazy, contemplative future that may or may not exist sometime months or years from now. I'm going to be preoccupied with surviving the next 5 minutes. If that happens, then I'll worry about the next five, and so on... Getting distracted worrying about the "future" sounds like a good way to loose situational awareness.

What I WON'T be doing is wringing my hands and wondering about what my lawyer might say in some courtroom a year from now about what kind of rifle I used to kill _________ number of people that I felt I had to in order to protect myself.

If that happens, and I later find myself in court, I'll deal with it then, because that means the following GOOD things:

1) I survived whatever it was that made me scared enough to kill someone. Reason enough right there.

2)Civilization has survived, at least in some form, and if we're still doing jury trials, that's a good thing. Good for us all.

3) Given the situation, if it was THAT bad - and beleive me, if I had to kill someone it would've been THAT BAD - it will have also happened to lots of other people, some of whom will be on that jury, so they'll understand. They can't put everyone in jail, right?

4) You're assuming there will even be an investigation. If the "authorites are not in control", and there's no one to call for help, then there's also no one to investigate what happened, either. At least not until very long after the fact, if at all. Do you know how many unsolved shootings there were in the LA riots? Or Katrina? And those were pretty much just tiny, localized events. Now imagine that on a national scale.





Now one's going to jail in a genuine SHTF/TEOTWAWKI scenario...

[Lindenwood]

My main thing about the .30-30 is that loading subsonics would still just give me a ~150gr, .308" non-expanding bullet. It was one of my first caliber choices when I started looking at lever actions, but that factor kinda took it out of the running.

Trajectory-wise, a 180gr .44mag bullet (assumed BC of .13) can be loaded to ~2200fps from a rifle, so with a 125yd zero we are talking a 1.5" rise at around 75ish yards, and 10" of drop at 200 yards. Stepping the zero to 150 yards moves those values to 2.5" and ~7", respectively. But still, that is probably farther than I'd ever realistically expect to either participate in a gunfight or hunt a game animal.



I have seen the court / lawyer reasoning used before in defense of the lever action, but I don't really think it applies for the situation we're discussing, so I didn't bring it up. Though, he is right that a lever-action rifle on my back might catch a second look as I walk by a guard shack or whatever, but an EBR might catch a 3rd and 4th look. That isn't really a factor in this decision between a lever-action and a Semi auto, just mentioning it.

[mudshark]

Got it...


But odds are whoever's in the guardshack is gonna have an EBR of their own. I think EBR's will be as common a sight as iPods and cel phones in that scenario.

You might even be thought of as old-school!!! Hell, on further refelction, I'd pay a little MORE attention to the guy with the Winchester 1894 slung over his shoulder when every other swinging Richard had an AK or AR.

There's something..... special..... about that guy. Hmmmm.....

[Lindenwood]

Heh, true, of course. But, it's not a big deal, and could very easily go either way, which is why I didn't mention it in the first place, and which is why I said it is not a factor in the decision between the semi-auto and lever-action.




Though I will say, I don't have any intention of raiding anywhere that has guard shacks (or even coming into sight of them), whether they are carrying single-shot .22s, or M14s. Really, that is kindof my original justification for sacrificing the ultimate firepower of a .223 semi-auto to get a more powerful chambering that could have a more widespread usage; I don't intend to get into anything that would require all the firepower of a modern semi-auto, but I could much more easily justify the level of firepower a lever-action offers while adding the advantage of the much more powerful chambering combined with the very good accuracy.

[Diomed]

Do you know how many unsolved shootings there were in the LA riots? Or Katrina?

Details?

[jlwilliams]

Sounds like you're assuming that a survival situation somehow must equal a total collapse of civilization. I don't see it that way at all. The idea that some situation will arise where we will be completely cut loose from all social constraints and the oportunity to go all Red Dawn will present itself is pervaisive on the internet. Whatever.

If you are in a do or die survival situaion, you must do whatever you have to do with whatever you have at hand. You don't get extra points for figuring that out. Right now, we are not in that situation. Right now we are planning what we may want to have ourselves armed with. Right now is a good time to think of laying the groundwork for preserving both lives and liberties. As you said, you will be focussed on the RIGHT NOW in this Red Dawn future you have in mind. Maybe the present is the time to think ahead.

If you want a lever action, get one. Hell, get two. You asked for opinions. Mine is that lever actions are great, takedowns are easier to carry, and that a lever may be more "PC" than a black rifle.

[J Krammes]

Great post JL. I personally like Lever Actions, especially the little carbines. I have a .450 Marlin. It is a great gun, but not really for a SHTF situation. I think the .44 would be better over .45-70. My first choice would have been .30-30, but that is me. I know a guy that has a Winchester 94 Carbine in .32 Win. It is a great little gun, and has killed many deer. I bet that would suppress well. In a survival situation ANY gun you have is better than the one you don't.

Jeremy

[Dweezil]

Lever gun and revolver in the same caliber seems like a good idea. Your caliber choice kinda depends on where you live and what you intend to do with it. Will you be in Northern or Southern California? (Slight possibility of bears in N. Cali. ) You mentioned you already had a 9mm. Do you have a suppressor for it? Would fit on a .357 lever gun. A .357 out of a rifle or carbine length barrel can take deer sized game in under 100yard, maybe 200 depending on your experience. You can shoot subsonic .38 special for bunnies etc. Cheaper, lighter for plinking. Most .357 hollowpoints are designed to expand at subsonic velocities. If you live in Elk country, a 44mag/special .45 Colt or 45/70 may be more appropriate but I doubt there will be many Elk left in a long term SHTF scenario. We'll be more likely to be eating rats, feral cats, stray dogs, pigeons, songbirds etc.

[Lindenwood]

JL, was that directed toward me? If not, are you saying a lever-action would be adequate, if not advantageous due to the heavier, more powerful loadings?

Here are my main caliber choices:
.44mag, .45-70, and .30-30.

I'd really like a .44mag one, but I don't know if any that don't have strait stocks, which I find very uncomfortable for my wrists. However, there are models available in the other two calibers that offer semi pistol grips. The .45-70 would be ok, but I think it would be a waste because its a lot more expensive to shoot, and I think I'd rarely shoot anything more powerful than hot .44mags (say, 300gr at 1500ish FPS for plinking), so I'd sacrifice the cartridge space and high ammo prices for nothing (even reloading will cost about $.38 per round if I don't cast myself, or about $.26 for subsonics, compared to about $.20 per round with subsonic .44s, or maybe $.30 per round with regular .44 loads). The .30-30 costs only a little less, and it lacks the ability to be loaded to subsonic velocities and maintain good terminal effectiveness.



I really like the larger-bore cartridges because, as I said, I like the ability to load down to subsonic velocities for best suppression, and still pack a good punch as its possible (especially with .44mag) to get good expansion from factory bullets at those velocities. But at the same time, I can't find .44mag ones that offer the single most wanted feature for me; the PG stock).

Hmm.

*edit*

Dweezil, the main reason I haven't really considered the .357 is that for the same amount of money I could get a 9mm carbine. I know it isn't the same, but the terminal ballistics (from a rifle) are similar enough that I'd think the compactness and greater overall firepower of a Sub2000 or perhaps a Beretta CX4 storm would be worth the relatively small sacrifice in terminal performance going from .357 to 9mm.

As far as hunting goes, I am in Oklahoma and would probably never go for anything larger than deer. But at the same time, I like the larger calibers' ability to stop a charging 300lb hog, as well as really take the fight out of someone if need be!


Though I think between the .30-30 and .45-70, I'd go with the big bore.

[no4mk1t]

If you decide on the Marlin in 45-70, install a Decelerator recoil pad......you will thank me later.

Ashley Express makes a mount if you want to mount a Scout scope.

[jlwilliams]

JL, was that directed toward me? If not, are you saying a lever-action would be adequate, if not advantageous due to the heavier, more powerful loadings?

*edit*

Dweezil, the main reason I haven't really considered the .357 is that for the same amount of money I could get a 9mm carbine. I know it isn't the same, but the terminal ballistics (from a rifle) are similar enough that I'd think the compactness and greater overall firepower of a Sub2000 or perhaps a Beretta CX4 storm would be worth the relatively small sacrifice in terminal performance going from .357 to 9mm.

As far as hunting goes, I am in Oklahoma and would probably never go for anything larger than deer. But at the same time, I like the larger calibers' ability to stop a charging 300lb hog, as well as really take the fight out of someone if need be!


Though I think between the .30-30 and .45-70, I'd go with the big bore.

No, not directed toward you.

Yes, I too think the lever gun is good for the possabilities of heavy loadings or light loadings without having to mess with any sort of gas system. In short, the lever gun may have been originaly designed as a military weapon during the Civil War, but it's current state of development is the result of generations of North American game killing. It's just good for whatever you wish to put down on this continent.

You may reconsider the .357 vs 9mm carbine. With the right carbine and loads you can put the 357 out with impressive performance. Moreover, .357 comes with and can be loaded with projectiles that are heavier and generaly more destructive than auto pistol rounds. A flat nose hard cast bullet is arguably better than most hollowpoints by virtue of mass and therefor inertia. Big flat nosed bullets that do well in a revolver pick up more speed in a rifle and do messy things to flesh and bone. Of course, a 44 mag is more better than a .357 mag, but if you have a heavy duty 9mm can all paid for....

[Lindenwood]

Oh sorry, no I don't actually have a 9mm suppressor yet. I actually have the form1 sitting here on my desk but I decided against a 9mm suppressor because I didn't like the idea of having to compensate for the weight during training. So im pretty much starting from square one for a rifle suppressor.

And yeah I have already looked into recoil reduction, haha.


I really like the look and specs of the 1895SBL from marlin, which its PG stock, short 18.5" barrel, and 6+1 capacity. The 1895W is probably the second choice. I like that its only like $350 instead of like $750 heh. It has a 24" barrel, but Id likely just chop it to 16" when I have it threaded. The main problem is the 4+1 capacity, but that's still not a huge deal I feel like. Especially when considering that its half the cost of the SBL, and will be about 2" shorter and notably lighter.

[smcharchan]

This thread needs pics.

Win 94 / 44 mag and S&W 329PD



8 and a quarter pounds for rifle and revolver (unloaded). Not bad.



I'm no photographer, but you get the picture.

[Lindenwood]

It's hard to decide if I want to spend $500 for the 4+1 or $850 for the 6+1 version. Those are the main differences for me, as if I got the 4+1 I would probably cut its barrel down to ~16.25" before threading, actually making it a little over 2" shorter (about 35" total), which could help compensate for the length of the attached suppressor. I think I'd rather have the extra 40% magazine capacity (assuming 5 vs 7rds) over the 2" shorter OAL, though. But the question is whether to save for the SBL or just go with the standard one at the sacrifice of the +2 capacity.

[tlowry]

When thinking about lever actions don't forget the Browning BLR and Winchester M-88. Both lock up similar to a bolt gun and were chambered in high powered cartridges. I have a Winchester M-88 in 308 and will soon purchase a BLR to match. Also I believe the Browning was available as a take-down gun. Used Brownings can sometimes be found on Gunbroker at a fair price.

[jlwilliams]

A BLR takedown with two front ends would be a neat set up. Something like a .308 and suppressed .45acp interchangeable front halves. I saw a Savage 99 that was 30-30 with a .410 front once and would have bought it if I could have. The .410 was definitely not a factory item, but it seemed well made.

I have a Ruger 44mag lever action that I plan on one day suppressing. It's kind of similar to the Savage99 or the BLR or the Win 88 in that it has a box magazine. Not what one thinks of when you consider a lever action, but not to be overlooked. I think that Ruger stoped making the lever gun in 44, but they do turn up. You can get a BLR takedown in your choise of calibers for $700 or $800 I think. Nice guns for the money, but if you want the 44 magnum or 45-70 the Marlin is hard to beat.

Have you looked at these?

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewIt ... =143097583

I couldn't find their page right away but I found one of the guns on gunbroker. Nice takedown lever guns done on Marlin actions.

[pneumagger]

If things have degraded to the point where I'm carrying a rifle around and faced with the possiblity of or are actively shooting people, the last thing I'm worrying about is going to court.

I'm going to be completely occupied with living in the RIGHT NOW. The RIGHT NOW. Not the hazy, contemplative future that may or may not exist sometime months or years from now. I'm going to be preoccupied with surviving the next 5 minutes. If that happens, then I'll worry about the next five, and so on... Getting distracted worrying about the "future" sounds like a good way to loose situational awareness.

What I WON'T be doing is wringing my hands and wondering about what my lawyer might say in some courtroom a year from now about what kind of rifle I used to kill _________ number of people that I felt I had to in order to protect myself.

[Lindenwood]

Hmm. Thanks for the tips on the brownings and winchesters. Will have to look into those.


I don't think I'd bother with the SBL, since I now realize it only has a 5+1 capacity and not 6+1 (so only one more round for like $300 more). The big lever doesn't really matter to me, and the rail can be added later if I want to. So I'll probably get the 22" barrel version and chop it down to 16.25". The still-shorter magazine length would allow for a 2-point mount for the suppressor, which I'd definitely want for a "survival" gun for its vastly increased durability.