Prodigy POI shift and bullet tumble on Ruger Mark II

[Islander]

Hello Folks,

Spent some more time at the range with my Prodigy attached to a Ruger Mark II with Pac-Lite 4.5" barrel. I was shooting WMart Federal 550 pack, 36 grain, 1260 FPS 22LR.

At 15 yards I was getting a POI shift to the left of about 5 inches. This was a surpise. Also, the bullets appear to be tumbling. Wondering if somehow my barrel got fried, or maybe after shooting about 50 unjacketed Remington subsonics I've got lead gumming up the lands? My eyesight isn't that great, so I could not tell if my barrel is fowled. Looked pretty smooth to me.

QUESTIONS:

1. Is this huge POI shift reasonable?
2. Why are my bullets tumbling? Even if they are staying subsonic, I would expect them to stabilize, being so lite.

Any help would be very much appreciated.

Best to all,
Islander

[Hush]

I have the same set up and I've noticed the Pac lite barrels do seem to have shallow rifling, I would give the barrel a good cleaning and run a bronze bore brush through it a few times along with some Hoppe's.
Then pick up a couple boxes of standard or sub sonic velocity 40 grn. ammo and see if they tumble.

[JasonAAC]

Does not seem normal to get that much shift.

Hush has a good suggestion as far as the tumbling.
If you took the can off and shot, was there still any shift/tumbling?

any damage inside the can?

[JasonAAC]

ETA- maybe it is ammo with your particular setup:
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=60101

[Ben B.]

I had an issue with an SRT Odessa can on a 10/22. The 10/22 was threaded for Gemtech specs and worked great with an OB-II. I had major POI shift, accuracy degrade, and keyholes with the SRT. But the Odessa worked perfectly on my other .22s.

Per Doug's advice, I screwed the Odessa can on the barrel, held it up to the light, and observed that it was not squarely against the threads on all sides. Doug at SRT says "send can & barrel to us". My smith says, "It may be that threads are a bit long for that can and preventing it from squaring up on the shoulder. Get a thin machine spacing washer that fits and try it agin"

I thought that was total hooey. But I did it. And it worked perfectly.

[Islander]

Does not seem normal to get that much shift.

Hush has a good suggestion as far as the tumbling.
If you took the can off and shot, was there still any shift/tumbling?

any damage inside the can?

No, shoots great without the can. I'm wondering if the can is somehow slowing down the bullets just enough to destabilize them.

I cleaned the barrel very well with a wire brush tonight. We'll check it out again tomorrow on the Ruger MkII and also on my 10/22. I'll order a washer from Brownell's to see if that helps.

Thanks for all the feedback.

[JasonAAC]

Does not seem normal to get that much shift.

Hush has a good suggestion as far as the tumbling.
If you took the can off and shot, was there still any shift/tumbling?

any damage inside the can?

No, shoots great without the can. I'm wondering if the can is somehow slowing down the bullets just enough to destabilize them.

I cleaned the barrel very well with a wire brush tonight. We'll check it out again tomorrow on the Ruger MkII and also on my 10/22. I'll order a washer from Brownell's to see if that helps.

Thanks for all the feedback.

The washer could help if the threads are a little long.

If anything, the can will increase bullet velocity from freebore boost, definitely not slow them down.

If the washer fails, call mers and send it in with the barrel.

we'll get you hooked up.

[Islander]

Does not seem normal to get that much shift.

Hush has a good suggestion as far as the tumbling.
If you took the can off and shot, was there still any shift/tumbling?

any damage inside the can?

No, shoots great without the can. I'm wondering if the can is somehow slowing down the bullets just enough to destabilize them.

I cleaned the barrel very well with a wire brush tonight. We'll check it out again tomorrow on the Ruger MkII and also on my 10/22. I'll order a washer from Brownell's to see if that helps.

Thanks for all the feedback.

The washer could help if the threads are a little long.

If anything, the can will increase bullet velocity from freebore boost, definitely not slow them down.

If the washer fails, call mers and send it in with the barrel.

we'll get you hooked up.

Thanks Jason. Didn't mean to have you guys helping out openly on the forum. If it gets to the point where I need a manufacturer's help I normally handle that discretely offline. But I do very much appreciate you confirming that on this open forum.

[JohnInNH]

Hello Folks,

Spent some more time at the range with my Prodigy attached to a Ruger Mark II with Pac-Lite 4.5" barrel. I was shooting WMart Federal 550 pack, 36 grain, 1260 FPS 22LR.

At 15 yards I was getting a POI shift to the left of about 5 inches. This was a surpise. Also, the bullets appear to be tumbling. Wondering if somehow my barrel got fried, or maybe after shooting about 50 unjacketed Remington subsonics I've got lead gumming up the lands? My eyesight isn't that great, so I could not tell if my barrel is fowled. Looked pretty smooth to me.

QUESTIONS:

1. Is this huge POI shift reasonable?
2. Why are my bullets tumbling? Even if they are staying subsonic, I would expect them to stabilize, being so lite.

Any help would be very much appreciated.

Best to all,
Islander

50 lead bullets should NOT foul a barrel.... 500 maybe.. not 50. Regardless.

I have noticed with my Prodigy and the TacSol AL threading that the interrupted threads in the Prodigy can VERY EASILY cross thread. So BE CAREFUL! My High Standard and TacSol 1911 conversion and TacSol 16" barrel all shoot FINE with my Prodigy.

Don't the Federal bulk pack go supersonic? They do in all my pistols except my P-22. 4.5" is supersonicville for me.

I bet you have a slight alignment issue. You may be getting a very slight bump off a baffle or the end cap.


Do you have another host? If so, how does the Prodigy shoot on it?

List of my Prodigy Hosts

CZ Bolt rifle (set trigger) model) cut to 16"
High Standard 5" barrel
TacSol 1911 conversion
1022 with 16" TacSol barrel
P-22 Walther 3.5" barrel

None have any significant POI shift. ALL are stable with CCI Std ammo and all subsonic (Remington Subsonic SUCKS) Best ammo is Blue Box CCI Standard Vel at 1070 FPS (from a full length rifle) 40 gr (TARGET) It is subsonic in my 1022 16" and is subsonic in the CZ when hot out. But supersonic/Transonic under 70 deg.

It works very well in my pistols as it has enough recoil to work the actions yet be Shhhhh Quiet. Actually quieter than the Remington Subsonic! and MUCH cleaner with much more reliable ignition.

Something is not right.

[Islander]

Hey JohnInNH,

Thanks for the detailed response. I'll try it tomorrow with my 10/22. I don't remember having a POI shift with that platform.

Also, I really don't think I have this cross threaded in any way on the Mk II. It screws on smooth and straight, with no daylight between the barrel and can. I am really hoping the Boresnake through the can will solve this, or even other ammo, but I did order a washer off Brownells just in case.

[Islander]

UPDATE: Shot the 10/22 with the Prodigy. No POI shift or keyholing with 3 different bullets (Winchester, Federal, Remington), all HP HV. After all the cleaning and fuss, still have a 4" POI shift to the left on the Ruger Mk II with Tac-Sol. Peel washers on the way.

QUESTION: Can I get the thread shortened and muzzle recrowned to permanently correct this and lose the washer?

[Ben B.]

QUESTION: Can I get the thread shortened and muzzle recrowned to permanently correct this and lose the washer?

Yes, a nice choice if that is the problem and the expense is worth it to you. I chose not to spend anymore money or time on it, & just leave the washer on the affected barrel.

[SRM]

You might want to check the relief at the shoulder. A thread might be contacting and putting everything in a bind.

Just a thought

If it shoots good without the can, it cant be the crown.

Ya know, if the threads and shoulder arent square with eachother, itll pull the muzzle over .

[Ron of Va]

Cover the end of the suppressor with a piece of masking tape. Shoot a low velocity round, then fold the torn pieces back together and see if the round is leaving the suppressor dead center. If the hole is not dead center, then shim the back of the suppressor 180º from the suspected baffle strike.

[Islander]

I'm sure we're getting a slight baffle strike. I think it has been this way from the beginning. I wonder if TacSol will repair or replace the barrel based on misaligned or too deep threads. I have not measured the threads to see if they are in spec. I would rather have threads too long than threads off center. We'll see if the washer cures all, then decide whether to do anything else.

[JohnInNH]

Call TacSol .. explain the problem.. you SHOULD get it fixed for FREE. They have something wrong. Don't screw with washers or shims. You might end up making it worse. Then it WILL be your fault!

The TacSol threads on my 1022 barrel are just fine on a prodigy. So something is flat out WRONG!

They should back their product.. They make enough on them. Poooo happens and they should clean up the poo.

It's not YOUR fault it's wrong.. it's not AAC's fault either.

[Islander]

Call TacSol .. explain the problem.. you SHOULD get it fixed for FREE. They have something wrong. Don't screw with washers or shims. You might end up making it worse. Then it WILL be your fault!

The TacSol threads on my 1022 barrel are just fine on a prodigy. So something is flat out WRONG!

They should back their product.. They make enough on them. Poooo happens and they should clean up the poo.

It's not YOUR fault it's wrong.. it's not AAC's fault either.

I agree. Will call them today.

Thanks.

[Islander]

Spoke with Lon at Tactical Solutions. Without hesitation he gave me an RMA and I shipped the barrel back to them today. That's great customer service so far. Will let you know what they find. Only regret is if they have to send me a new one I'll loose the great serial number I had, but that's how it goes. No, I won't tell you the serial number.

[Queso Grande]

Spoke with Lon at Tactical Solutions. Without hesitation he gave me an RMA and I shipped the barrel back to them today. That's great customer service so far. Will let you know what they find. Only regret is if they have to send me a new one I'll loose the great serial number I had, but that's how it goes. No, I won't tell you the serial number.

Maybe if you loose it you'll tell.

I went out for the first time today with this same setup, I had no POI shift at first. After a few mags, it started shifting to the left. At about 50 yard my POA need to be on the edge of the body size target in order to get a hit. If my point of aim is in the middle. You can see the bullet hit the dirt. When I remove the Prodigy it goes back to normal POI.

What I am going to do next is clean everything up and see what happens.

Oh I ripped skin off my hand trying to get the can apart to clean it at the range.

[Islander]

What I am going to do next is clean everything up and see what happens.

Oh I ripped skin off my hand trying to get the can apart to clean it at the range.

Ouch! I put a canvas glove on the base and use pliers when it gets too tight to unscrew. No marks and no torn skin.

I sure hope cleaning helps with the POI Shift for you. Maybe with the short barrels the bullets can't stabilize?

[Queso Grande]

What I am going to do next is clean everything up and see what happens.

Oh I ripped skin off my hand trying to get the can apart to clean it at the range.

Ouch! I put a canvas glove on the base and use pliers when it gets too tight to unscrew. No marks and no torn skin.

I sure hope cleaning helps with the POI Shift for you. Maybe with the short barrels the bullets can't stabilize?

I bought a strap wrench, worked great.

[JohnInNH]

AAC said they are going to make a tool to fit the blast baffle end where the sharp edges are. I have no clue where they are with it.. call Mike and see if they have made any yet. It's been over a month since they posted that they WERE making one..

I would love one myself.

With the Prodigy if you keep the can tight on the host then loosen the tube 3/4 a turn tighten then loosen 3/4 a turn then tighten maybe 3-4 times after every magazine you will not have problems taking it apart as the baffle is designed to cut the fouling as it is being formed if you follow this procedure the can will never become stuck and hard to open..

It also is a good habit as it will also make sure the can is on tight. (no baffle strikes.)

I have just picked up a air hose air gun and 3' of tubing and 4 lbs of baking soda ... Sure as shooting it does remove some of the buildup. I will try o finish it tomorrow .. I have the blast baffle and the bottom of the first 3 baffles to do. the rest is back down to the finish. Good way to sweeten the soil too.

[Queso Grande]

AAC said they are going to make a tool to fit the blast baffle end where the sharp edges are. I have no clue where they are with it.. call Mike and see if they have made any yet. It's been over a month since they posted that they WERE making one..

I would love one myself.

With the Prodigy if you keep the can tight on the host then loosen the tube 3/4 a turn tighten then loosen 3/4 a turn then tighten maybe 3-4 times after every magazine you will not have problems taking it apart as the baffle is designed to cut the fouling as it is being formed if you follow this procedure the can will never become stuck and hard to open..

It also is a good habit as it will also make sure the can is on tight. (no baffle strikes.)

I have just picked up a air hose air gun and 3' of tubing and 4 lbs of baking soda ... Sure as shooting it does remove some of the buildup. I will try o finish it tomorrow .. I have the blast baffle and the bottom of the first 3 baffles to do. the rest is back down to the finish. Good way to sweeten the soil too.

Should I expect the have the same POI with and without the Prodigy attached.

[JohnInNH]

Hanging anything on the end of your pistol can cause POI shift. It effects the pistol "setback" when fired amongst other things.

I have not noticed any change of the POI shift. I sight in my .22 CZ rifle for the silencer attached and it has been the same since. The same for my High standard ... Once sighted in I'm good to go.

[Islander]

I think 4" at 10 yards is very extreme for POI. Much more telling is keyholing. If you get keyholing with suppressor attached, but none when not attached, I believe you must be getting a strike in the suppressor.

TacSol is sending me a new Pac-Lite, hopefully arriving today. I'll let you know the results as soon as I fire it.