Prodigy POI shift and bullet tumble on Ruger Mark II

[Queso Grande]

so... the threading of the paclite is not quite concentric, which is allowing turbulence induced by the baffle design to destabilize the bullet?

or are there evil elves living inside the prodigy?

Who said that?

[TOOL1075]

so... the threading of the paclite is not quite concentric, which is allowing turbulence induced by the baffle design to destabilize the bullet?

or are there evil elves living inside the prodigy?

Who said that?

me. I am asking those questions. if AAC's R&D department said there is a fix, and gave a timeline for completion of that fix, that means they know what the problem is. I'm speculating as to what the problem is, since the AAC employee who responded says he doesn't know what the problem is (which I find bizarre).

I don't even own any of these items in question, I'm just curious as to what is happening, and I can't think of many reasons other than what I just asked, in the face of what has been troubleshot so far.

[Mageever]

so... the threading of the paclite is not quite concentric, which is allowing turbulence induced by the baffle design to destabilize the bullet?

or are there evil elves living inside the prodigy?

Who said that?

me. I am asking those questions. if AAC's R&D department said there is a fix, and gave a timeline for completion of that fix, that means they know what the problem is. I'm speculating as to what the problem is, since the AAC employee who responded says he doesn't know what the problem is (which I find bizarre).

I don't even own any of these items in question, I'm just curious as to what is happening, and I can't think of many reasons other than what I just asked, in the face of what has been troubleshot so far.

They never said they had a fix--they're just working on it. Also, it's not a threading issue. That's been established, although any deviation from perfect always has some effect and the Prodigy is probably sensitive to this.

[TOOL1075]

They never said they had a fix--they're just working on it. Also, it's not a threading issue. That's been established, although any deviation from perfect always has some effect and the Prodigy is probably sensitive to this.

well, I assumed because they gave a rough timeline, they had a fix in mind. If they have no idea what the problem is or if they don't know how to fix it, they wouldn't have given a timeline (or maybe they would- which would be an asshole thing to do though... unless they know exactly how long it will take them to come up with an idea )

as far as being sensitive to concentricity isuues - yes, that's why I stated that theory. If it's not a threading issue.... then what is it? Something is destabilizing the projectile, right? If it's not the rate of twist, or the crown, or the velocity, then it's the baffle design in this case. Or elves, like I said. Am I missing something obvious here? Isn't the bullet just getting bantered about, ever so slightly, by a gas path that has gone rogue (or a pressure zone that is being a bitch)?

$5 says if you drill out a baffle or two by a tiny bit, you'll be good to go....

The thing can't be perfectly concentric.... if it was.... why would this be happening? Something is happening to make it "off" just a little bit. The barrel is a sleeve, right? Steel inside aluminum? And the aluminum is threaded? Maybe there's some slight misalignment between the two.

Now this is bothering me. I want to know what's wrong.... teeeeeell meeeeeeeeeeeeeee

[Mageever]

They never said they had a fix--they're just working on it. Also, it's not a threading issue. That's been established, although any deviation from perfect always has some effect and the Prodigy is probably sensitive to this.

well, I assumed because they gave a rough timeline, they had a fix in mind. If they have no idea what the problem is or if they don't know how to fix it, they wouldn't have given a timeline (or maybe they would- which would be an asshole thing to do though... unless they know exactly how long it will take them to come up with an idea )

as far as being sensitive to concentricity isuues - yes, that's why I stated that theory. If it's not a threading issue.... then what is it? Something is destabilizing the projectile, right? If it's not the rate of twist, or the crown, or the velocity, then it's the baffle design in this case. Or elves, like I said. Am I missing something obvious here? Isn't the bullet just getting bantered about, ever so slightly, by a gas path that has gone rogue (or a pressure zone that is being a bitch)?

$5 says if you drill out a baffle or two by a tiny bit, you'll be good to go....

The thing can't be perfectly concentric.... if it was.... why would this be happening? Something is happening to make it "off" just a little bit. The barrel is a sleeve, right? Steel inside aluminum? And the aluminum is threaded? Maybe there's some slight misalignment between the two.

Now this is bothering me. I want to know what's wrong.... teeeeeell meeeeeeeeeeeeeee

Yeah, they're doing some serious root cause analysis right now and it can only be two things: manufacturing variation or design (or both). Since it doesn't happen on all of them, then it's not just the design but probably a combination of the two. This is what struck me as funny--stating that they have a timeline, but not a root cause. Normally you have to have the cause before you can know how to fix it and how long it will take. Unless you're dealing with elves, which is actually my vote.

[Queso Grande]

They never said they had a fix--they're just working on it. Also, it's not a threading issue. That's been established, although any deviation from perfect always has some effect and the Prodigy is probably sensitive to this.

well, I assumed because they gave a rough timeline, they had a fix in mind. If they have no idea what the problem is or if they don't know how to fix it, they wouldn't have given a timeline (or maybe they would- which would be an asshole thing to do though... unless they know exactly how long it will take them to come up with an idea )

as far as being sensitive to concentricity isuues - yes, that's why I stated that theory. If it's not a threading issue.... then what is it? Something is destabilizing the projectile, right? If it's not the rate of twist, or the crown, or the velocity, then it's the baffle design in this case. Or elves, like I said. Am I missing something obvious here? Isn't the bullet just getting bantered about, ever so slightly, by a gas path that has gone rogue (or a pressure zone that is being a bitch)?

$5 says if you drill out a baffle or two by a tiny bit, you'll be good to go....

The thing can't be perfectly concentric.... if it was.... why would this be happening? Something is happening to make it "off" just a little bit. The barrel is a sleeve, right? Steel inside aluminum? And the aluminum is threaded? Maybe there's some slight misalignment between the two.

Now this is bothering me. I want to know what's wrong.... teeeeeell meeeeeeeeeeeeeee

Yeah, they're doing some serious root cause analysis right now and it can only be two things: manufacturing variation or design (or both). Since it doesn't happen on all of them, then it's not just the design but probably a combination of the two. This is what struck me as funny--stating that they have a timeline, but not a root cause. Normally you have to have the cause before you can know how to fix it and how long it will take. Unless you're dealing with elves, which is actually my vote.

Whats interesting is that if it not happening to all of them a root cause analysis even needs to be done for the individual. Just change it out with one of the core that does not have an issue.

The change out should take one day maybe, if the new core is tested.

[Queso Grande]

They never said they had a fix--they're just working on it. Also, it's not a threading issue. That's been established, although any deviation from perfect always has some effect and the Prodigy is probably sensitive to this.

well, I assumed because they gave a rough timeline, they had a fix in mind. If they have no idea what the problem is or if they don't know how to fix it, they wouldn't have given a timeline (or maybe they would- which would be an asshole thing to do though... unless they know exactly how long it will take them to come up with an idea )

as far as being sensitive to concentricity isuues - yes, that's why I stated that theory. If it's not a threading issue.... then what is it? Something is destabilizing the projectile, right? If it's not the rate of twist, or the crown, or the velocity, then it's the baffle design in this case. Or elves, like I said. Am I missing something obvious here? Isn't the bullet just getting bantered about, ever so slightly, by a gas path that has gone rogue (or a pressure zone that is being a bitch)?

$5 says if you drill out a baffle or two by a tiny bit, you'll be good to go....

The thing can't be perfectly concentric.... if it was.... why would this be happening? Something is happening to make it "off" just a little bit. The barrel is a sleeve, right? Steel inside aluminum? And the aluminum is threaded? Maybe there's some slight misalignment between the two.

Now this is bothering me. I want to know what's wrong.... teeeeeell meeeeeeeeeeeeeee

Yeah, they're doing some serious root cause analysis right now and it can only be two things: manufacturing variation or design (or both). Since it doesn't happen on all of them, then it's not just the design but probably a combination of the two. This is what struck me as funny--stating that they have a timeline, but not a root cause. Normally you have to have the cause before you can know how to fix it and how long it will take. Unless you're dealing with elves, which is actually my vote.

Whats your affiliation?

[Mageever]

Whats your affiliation?

I'm a manufacturing engineer in the medical device industry. I've also done contract work for Silencerco--both on the design side and the manufacturing side. That's been mentioned before, so it's no secret. You could say I'm affiliated with the Companies Should Build Quality s--t Party.

My remarks above come from my experience in building Form 1 stuff that tumbled bullets on similar hosts and from working in medical device manufacturing. The FDA would lock your doors if you told them a timeline for fixing a problem without having done the root cause analysis first. It's simply a best practice and I feel like I'm throwing them a bone here. Beyond that you're left with 100% product verification which I think is what you mentioned above--and that's costly. Eventually you may stumble across the problem with this method. AAC has some really smart guys working in R&D and the question is are they using the best methods to figure this out and that's something internal that they just won't talk about.

[Queso Grande]

Whats your affiliation?

I'm a manufacturing engineer in the medical device industry. I've also done contract work for Silencerco--both on the design side and the manufacturing side. That's been mentioned before, so it's no secret. You could say I'm affiliated with the Companies Should Build Quality s--t Party.

My remarks above come from my experience in building Form 1 stuff that tumbled bullets on similar hosts and from working in medical device manufacturing. The FDA would lock your doors if you told them a timeline for fixing a problem without having done the root cause analysis first. It's simply a best practice and I feel like I'm throwing them a bone here. Beyond that you're left with 100% product verification which I think is what you mentioned above--and that's costly. Eventually you may stumble across the problem with this method. AAC has some really smart guys working in R&D and the question is are they using the best methods to figure this out and that's something internal that they just won't talk about.

Internal that they just won't talk about, sounds about right,


Has anyone tested the new core yet?

[Queso Grande]

Whats your affiliation?

I'm a manufacturing engineer in the medical device industry. I've also done contract work for Silencerco--both on the design side and the manufacturing side. That's been mentioned before, so it's no secret. You could say I'm affiliated with the Companies Should Build Quality s--t Party.

My remarks above come from my experience in building Form 1 stuff that tumbled bullets on similar hosts and from working in medical device manufacturing. The FDA would lock your doors if you told them a timeline for fixing a problem without having done the root cause analysis first. It's simply a best practice and I feel like I'm throwing them a bone here. Beyond that you're left with 100% product verification which I think is what you mentioned above--and that's costly. Eventually you may stumble across the problem with this method. AAC has some really smart guys working in R&D and the question is are they using the best methods to figure this out and that's something internal that they just won't talk about.

So do you thinking this is an investment casting issue.

[Mageever]

So do you thinking this is an investment casting issue.

Definitely not- since it's not cast. It's a beautifully machined piece of metal.

If I had to guess, I'd say that the baffle stack is aggressive enough that it's right on the edge of destabilizing the bullet out of pistol barrels where the gasses get in front of the bullet. It's then compounded by any bit of manufacturing variation and alignment variation on the host (there's always this to some degree, btw). The interrupted threads on the one I've used left me wondering how well they really aligned. Hey Jason, if I'm right then I expect a T-shirt from AAC. I'll wear it proudly.

[Queso Grande]

So do you thinking this is an investment casting issue.

Definitely not- since it's not cast. It's a beautifully machined piece of metal.

If I had to guess, I'd say that the baffle stack is aggressive enough that it's right on the edge of destabilizing the bullet out of pistol barrels where the gasses get in front of the bullet. It's then compounded by any bit of manufacturing variation and alignment variation on the host (there's always this to some degree, btw). The interrupted threads on the one I've used left me wondering how well they really aligned. Hey Jason, if I'm right then I expect a T-shirt from AAC. I'll wear it proudly.

Check out Investment Casting and let me know what you think.

[JasonAAC]

So do you thinking this is an investment casting issue.

Definitely not- since it's not cast. It's a beautifully machined piece of metal.

If I had to guess, I'd say that the baffle stack is aggressive enough that it's right on the edge of destabilizing the bullet out of pistol barrels where the gasses get in front of the bullet. It's then compounded by any bit of manufacturing variation and alignment variation on the host (there's always this to some degree, btw). The interrupted threads on the one I've used left me wondering how well they really aligned. Hey Jason, if I'm right then I expect a T-shirt from AAC. I'll wear it proudly.

Ha ha. yeah, no casting on the PRODIGY.

I am speaking out of my lane, but it is a very random/rare issue that occurs with SOME sleeved barrels- Islander's tacsol for example. VERY strange issue as a keyhole with his can on his gun... same can moved to a threaded original ruger barrel is fine and another MODEL can on the tacsol is fine. Also similar results on some P22s. In all cases, cans work perfectly as expected when moved to non-sleeved barrels as well as some other models of the same sleeved barrel. Very strange, I know it doesn't make sense, but I've seen it. It is not a thread-alignment issue

But, we do have a fix, I think Islander may be the test case. More from people that know more as it develops.

[Queso Grande]

So do you thinking this is an investment casting issue.

Definitely not- since it's not cast. It's a beautifully machined piece of metal.

If I had to guess, I'd say that the baffle stack is aggressive enough that it's right on the edge of destabilizing the bullet out of pistol barrels where the gasses get in front of the bullet. It's then compounded by any bit of manufacturing variation and alignment variation on the host (there's always this to some degree, btw). The interrupted threads on the one I've used left me wondering how well they really aligned. Hey Jason, if I'm right then I expect a T-shirt from AAC. I'll wear it proudly.

Ha ha. yeah, no casting on the PRODIGY.

I am speaking out of my lane, but it is a very random/rare issue that occurs with SOME sleeved barrels- Islander's tacsol for example. VERY strange issue as a keyhole with his can on his gun... same can moved to a threaded original ruger barrel is fine and another MODEL can on the tacsol is fine. Also similar results on some P22s. In all cases, cans work perfectly as expected when moved to non-sleeved barrels as well as some other models of the same sleeved barrel. Very strange, I know it doesn't make sense, but I've seen it. It is not a thread-alignment issue

But, we do have a fix, I think Islander may be the test case. More from people that know more as it develops.

Very good info, are you saying that the PRODIGY is all machined ? Can you give some insight to the manufacturing process?

[JasonAAC]

Check out Investment Casting and let me know what you think.

All machined from a bar, sorry. here's a prodigy core fresh off the lathe, heading to be finished- cnc internal:

[Queso Grande]

Check out Investment Casting and let me know what you think.

All machined from a bar, sorry. here's a prodigy core fresh off the lathe, heading to be finished- cnc internal:

Very nice,

With the sound reduction issues in the past and now this tumbling issue, do you see the Prodigy being discontinued?

[JasonAAC]

Very nice,

With the sound reduction issues in the past and now this tumbling issue, do you see the Prodigy being discontinued?

I don't. There are advantages to a monocore and frankly it is an overall great performer. Problems do come up with hosts, but overall it's still a great can, especially in terms of overall sound, weight, and ease of maintenance.

[JohnInNH]

The prodigy has excellent #'s on both a short pistol and a long rifle barrel. It is LIGHT.

I would like to know what material the very first internal baffle is made out of. is it a steel insert in/for the blast baffle chamber?

I want to know so I can take the proper measures when trying to clean the lead buildup out. If steel it will be easier.. If al much care needs to be taken. It's LOADED with lead.

[TOOL1075]

I knew it had something to do with the sleeved barrel.

[1_ar_newbie]

The prodigy has excellent #'s on both a short pistol and a long rifle barrel. It is LIGHT.

I would like to know what material the very first internal baffle is made out of. is it a steel insert in/for the blast baffle chamber?

I want to know so I can take the proper measures when trying to clean the lead buildup out. If steel it will be easier.. If al much care needs to be taken. It's LOADED with lead.

First baffle is AL. Just like the rest of the baffle stack

[1_ar_newbie]

double tap

[1_ar_newbie]

Check out Investment Casting and let me know what you think.

All machined from a bar, sorry. here's a prodigy core fresh off the lathe, heading to be finished- cnc internal:


Very nice,

With the sound reduction issues in the past and now this tumbling issue, do you see the Prodigy being discontinued?

No way, The Prodigy is a solid performer both in sound reduction and sales numbers.

This is a problem is less than 3% of Prodigy silencers....NOT like the sound issues in the past.

[JohnInNH]

The prodigy has excellent #'s on both a short pistol and a long rifle barrel. It is LIGHT.

I would like to know what material the very first internal baffle is made out of. is it a steel insert in/for the blast baffle chamber?

I want to know so I can take the proper measures when trying to clean the lead buildup out. If steel it will be easier.. If al much care needs to be taken. It's LOADED with lead.

First baffle is AL. Just like the rest of the baffle stack

Mike,

I thought maybe the chamber.. (Where the threads are) was a pressed in steel insert and that the first baffle (not the first slant baffle) was steel. On closer inspection I see that the steel does not go all the way in.

The manual I got with my OLD core says it is NOT full auto rated, but now the new Prodigies are full auto rated per your web site..

What changed in the core that lets it be full auto rated if the 1st baffle is still AL? Did you use a different grade of AL in the new core?

The biggest *visual* change is the reduction of the blast chamber, the removal of the ripples, and the bore going form .280 to .250.

Thanks for your time.

[Islander]

Any news yet.... Is no news good news or bad news? Islander should have gotten it back by now ... I am surprised no report. Either he is having so much fun he forgot about posting or he is not happy and is waiting to resolve it. Hummmmmm

I will be shooting my Prodigy with Trey-phish Friday weather permitting

Hi Folks,

Still here.

The folks at AAC are working on a fix. Looking forward to trying it out. In the mean time, I'm playing with other toys.

Best to all,
I



LWRC M6A2S (stretch)
I know my pool is a mess. The wind blew down a bunch of pine needles, but at least the water is still blue.

[Bowen1911]

at least you have a smile on your face