The truth about welds, Gemtech's version...

Kevin/AAC · Post by **Kevin/AAC** » Sun Jan 07, 2007 3:27 pm

Slick wrote:That was a pretty lame dodge.

I have no problem with you and AAC touting theoretical benefits of design and construction choices.

Let's video a durability test of a welded baffle core and a baffle core put together with "hydraulic torquing" without outer tubes and see with certainty what is more durable.

Post by **silencertalk** » Sun Jan 07, 2007 4:48 pm

Kel said:
...if anyone is really, really bored and likes to google enough, you might find one of the multiple USG contracts that were competed fairly and won by Gemtech to supply hundreds of those weak, unwelded, inferior cans to our troops after these tests...

Here is a Gemtech contract. Marines bought 45 HALOs. In 2005 it was the only choice for a can that goes onto an A2 flash hider.

http://www.fbodaily.com/archive/2005/02 ... 748671.htm

Blaster7Romeo · Post by **Blaster7Romeo** » Sun Jan 07, 2007 5:01 pm

I know my battalion’s scout platoon had GemTech m4-96D’s (or what ever the predecessor of the G5 was called) when we where in Iraq in 03 and 04, I don’t know how long before they had them, and if they where bought under contract.. I know that the guys did not buy them selves, because there was plenty of money in our budget for them. But they where there, that is all I know.

Slick · Post by **Slick** » Sun Jan 07, 2007 6:35 pm

Sorry, I needed to run down to the auto shop and have my cylinder heads welded to the block.

Any updated info on the can shown in the pic?

Kevin/AAC · Post by **Kevin/AAC** » Sun Jan 07, 2007 6:38 pm

Slick wrote:Sorry, I needed to run down to the auto shop and have my cylinder heads welded to the block.

Any updated info on the can shown in the pic?

Did they remove all of the welds from your chassis and thread it back together with "hydraulic torque"?

CZ-75 · Post by **CZ-75** » Sun Jan 07, 2007 9:57 pm

When are you guys going to behave like the company of the future, and stop acting like a bunch of little school children?

"Oh, did you see what Phil said this time?"

Hey! guys... Didi you see what Phil said?"

Grow the %^&# up.

Un f'ing believable... This site is a joke anymore.

Slick · Post by **Slick** » Sun Jan 07, 2007 11:29 pm

Kevin/AAC wrote:
Slick wrote:Sorry, I needed to run down to the auto shop and have my cylinder heads welded to the block.

Any updated info on the can shown in the pic?

Did they remove all of the welds from your chassis and thread it back together with "hydraulic torque"?

Actually they welded the doors shut.

Suppressor Professor · Sun Jan 07, 2007 11:44 pm

Slick wrote:
Kevin/AAC wrote:
Slick wrote:Sorry, I needed to run down to the auto shop and have my cylinder heads welded to the block.

Any updated info on the can shown in the pic?

Did they remove all of the welds from your chassis and thread it back together with "hydraulic torque"?
Actually they welded the doors shut.

We don't weld the aperture closed, just everything else.

Jonas · Post by **Jonas** » Mon Jan 08, 2007 12:08 am

Kevin/AAC wrote:
Slick wrote:Sorry, I needed to run down to the auto shop and have my cylinder heads welded to the block.

Any updated info on the can shown in the pic?

Did they remove all of the welds from your chassis and thread it back together with "hydraulic torque"?

Hahahahahaha

Ben B. · Post by **Ben B.** » Mon Jan 08, 2007 12:33 am

Suppressor Professor wrote: We don't weld the aperture closed, just everything else.

Ha! Smart move.

Fewer endcap strikes with open apertures, I'll bet.

ArevaloSOCOM · Post by **ArevaloSOCOM** » Mon Jan 08, 2007 12:41 am

I would want a welded can.

cyclone72 · Post by **cyclone72** » Mon Jan 08, 2007 12:59 am

I have 2 of them and wouldnt want it anyway else.

Crosshair · Post by **Crosshair** » Mon Jan 08, 2007 2:28 am

I was gona ask some stuff in this thread, but I'll wait until later.

kogashuko · Post by **kogashuko** » Mon Jan 08, 2007 3:18 am

CZ-75 wrote:When are you guys going to behave like the company of the future, and stop acting like a bunch of little school children?

"Oh, did you see what Phil said this time?"

Hey! guys... Didi you see what Phil said?"

Grow the %^&# up.

Un f'ing believable... This site is a joke anymore.

I dont think AAC started this thread.

Mongo · Post by **Mongo** » Mon Jan 08, 2007 6:59 am

CZ-75 wrote:When are you guys going to behave like the company of the future, and stop acting like a bunch of little school children?

"Oh, did you see what Phil said this time?"

Hey! guys... Didi you see what Phil said?"

Grow the %^&# up.

Un f'ing believable... This site is a joke anymore.

Well since this was brought on by another manufacturer/dealer (not Gemtech) claiming that welding a suppressor is a marketing scam I think it entirely appropriate that AAC responds. This was obviously directed towards AAC on a board that they can not reply on for a reason. With the Internet, disinformation can greatly effect the sales of a company (large and small). Companies these days are wise to defend against false claims or suffer the consequences.

Slick · Post by **Slick** » Mon Jan 08, 2007 8:59 am

Mongo wrote:
CZ-75 wrote:When are you guys going to behave like the company of the future, and stop acting like a bunch of little school children?

"Oh, did you see what Phil said this time?"

Hey! guys... Didi you see what Phil said?"

Grow the %^&# up.

Un f'ing believable... This site is a joke anymore.
Well since this was brought on by another manufacturer/dealer (not Gemtech) claiming that welding a suppressor is a marketing scam I think it entirely appropriate that AAC responds. This was obviously directed towards AAC on a board that they can not reply on for a reason. With the Internet, disinformation can greatly effect the sales of a company (large and small). Companies these days are wise to defend against false claims or suffer the consequences.

True, the car example really sold me.

Post by **silencertalk** » Mon Jan 08, 2007 9:05 am

Slick -- what do you own for cans?

Ben B. · Post by **Ben B.** » Mon Jan 08, 2007 9:09 am

Kevin/AAC wrote:Let's video a durability test of a welded baffle core and a baffle core put together with "hydraulic torquing" without outer tubes and see with certainty what is more durable.

That is a better idea than some types of talking. Sounds like Gemtech might want videos of repair procedure as well.

Ben

Slick · Post by **Slick** » Mon Jan 08, 2007 10:00 am

rsilvers wrote:Slick -- what do you own for cans?

I've posted all the cans I own in a thread on this board. You should be able to find it quite easily.

Any more info on the can in your pic?

chrisva · Post by **chrisva** » Mon Jan 08, 2007 10:28 am

Slick, what is your investment in Gemtech? Why do you have such a strong position in defending them and the products? This whole discussion is about manufacturing not who makes the better product.
No one said gemtech makes crap just that someone claims that welding isn't needed in a can.
I think most folks that have and use cans hard would prefer welded over none welded.
The only issue I have with gemtech is that they make statement that bullets destabilized when the gun is fired rapidly. What makes bullet 1 stable and bullet 60 less stable.

Slick · Post by **Slick** » Mon Jan 08, 2007 10:45 am

chrisva wrote:Slick, what is your investment in Gemtech? Why do you have such a strong position in defending them and the products? This whole discussion is about manufacturing not who makes the better product.
No one said gemtech makes crap just that someone claims that welding isn't needed in a can.
I think most folks that have and use cans hard would prefer welded over none welded.
The only issue I have with gemtech is that they make statement that bullets destabilized when the gun is fired rapidly. What makes bullet 1 stable and bullet 60 less stable.

Don't try to outsmart yourself, fella, I have no investment in Gemtech. You can't get any less relevant to the firearms/suppressor industry than I am. I have no problem with AAC's position that welded cans are stronger in some way than non-welded cans. I probably would agree with them if I knew more about the subject.

My issue with this thread is a simple one, that I stated quite plainly: Robert posted a picture of a damaged Gemtech can with no other accompanying information. I asked for information on that can, such as which can it was, who owned it, what happened to cause the failure and what was Gemtech's response.

To this point, Robert has not provided the info I requested, which makes me question the picture's value in proving that non-welded cans are weaker. It may be that Robert doesn't have the info I requested. If so, he could just say that.

I also have an issue with Robert stating that Dater's own printed words on Gemtech's repair policy is a lie, in his eyes. But it is Robert's right to say whatever he wishes. But calling up some vaguely remembered email he got from someone is lame, in my opinion. Especially since I have personal experience with gemtech replacing an obsolete can for dealer cost, which is probably pretty close to AAC's "half of retail."

For the record, I don't recommend specific cans, or one brand over another, when other posters ask. I also don't recommend cans I've never owned or likely never seen in person, as some folks here do.

I find your insinuation laughable.

bcorkery · Post by **bcorkery** » Mon Jan 08, 2007 10:47 am

chrisva wrote: The only issue I have with gemtech is that they make statement that bullets destabilized when the gun is fired rapidly. What makes bullet 1 stable and bullet 60 less stable.

That would be where the barrel and supressor get so hot that bullet core starts to melt inside the jacket and starts to spin independantly of the bullet, floating in a thin film of molten lead inside of the jacket. When the bullet leaves the crown, the gas release around the base is never, ever completely uniform so there is always a little base wobble. If the core is already moving around independantly and gets a little push as it leaves the crown, then you can be looking at partial keyholing in 4" or less. If you aren't using your M4 like an M60, you should be fine. What they are not saying is that multiple consecutive full auto mag dumps (busting an ambush, for instance, or slowing a pursuit) are really where you will run into this, outside of silly situations. And that is a whole other topic.

Or they may be talking about squib loads, I don't know.

Slick · Post by **Slick** » Mon Jan 08, 2007 10:48 am

chrisva wrote:The only issue I have with gemtech is that they make statement that bullets destabilized when the gun is fired rapidly. What makes bullet 1 stable and bullet 60 less stable.

I believe Gemtech thinks that when bore temps rise with sustained firing, the bullet's lead core can become mishapen and less than concentric.

If this is true or not, I have no idea.

monkeytoys · Post by **monkeytoys** » Mon Jan 08, 2007 11:16 am

Slick wrote:
rsilvers wrote:Slick -- what do you own for cans?
I've posted all the cans I own in a thread on this board. You should be able to find it quite easily.

Any more info on the can in your pic?

viewtopic.php?p=33973&highlight=#33973

nice collection of cans that you own.

cyclone72 · Post by **cyclone72** » Mon Jan 08, 2007 11:28 am

monkeytoys wrote:
Slick wrote:
rsilvers wrote:Slick -- what do you own for cans?
I've posted all the cans I own in a thread on this board. You should be able to find it quite easily.

Any more info on the can in your pic?
viewtopic.php?p=33973&highlight=#33973

nice collection of cans that you own.

thats alot of tax stamps, not unless hes a dealer.

the can in question too my novice eye looks like one of Gemtechs .223 cans just because of the unusual and proprietary finish,I could spot an M42000 in a line up cause AAC cans have their own finish same with YHM,I pay attention to detail thats why I buy AAC.