K Baffle Design (by 16 year old)

Yes, it can be legal to make a silencer. For everything Form-1, from silencer designs that are easily made, to filing forms with the BATF, to 3D modeling. Remember, you must have an approved BATF Form-1 to make a silencer. All NFA laws apply.

Moderators: mpallett, bakerjw

paco ramirez
Silent But Deadly
Posts: 4679
Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2007 10:49 pm
Location: Artesia, NM

Post by paco ramirez »

The OAL on the 9mm can is 7.675" including the piston sticking out.
paco ramirez
Silent But Deadly
Posts: 4679
Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2007 10:49 pm
Location: Artesia, NM

Post by paco ramirez »

Here is a VFG I modeled. I need to put on a couple more parts still, and make a cap for the bottom.

Image
Last edited by paco ramirez on Thu Mar 20, 2008 6:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
paco ramirez
Silent But Deadly
Posts: 4679
Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2007 10:49 pm
Location: Artesia, NM

Post by paco ramirez »

Omega version of the Arcane 9mm:



Image

Image

Image

Image


I just noticed that I mated the piston shell in reverse, so I'm off to fix that now. :lol:

If someone ever decided to do a K baffle Arcane, the weld spots would be ground down to the tube's OD, so make it look better. It would look like the Evo 9.
User avatar
Paledaddy
Elite Member
Posts: 1476
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:17 pm
Location: Stockholm/Sweden

Post by Paledaddy »

Pac, shouldent the mousehole be on the other side so it direct gases to the coax chamber bath at the far end of the baffel !!

Pd
[b]Bas Rutten[/b] [quote]" I'm sorry Sir..... BANG ! BANG ! BANG !... No I'm not. "[/quote]
paco ramirez
Silent But Deadly
Posts: 4679
Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2007 10:49 pm
Location: Artesia, NM

Post by paco ramirez »

Paledaddy wrote:Pac, shouldent the mousehole be on the other side so it direct gases to the coax chamber bath at the far end of the baffel !!

Pd
If your talking about the pics that are all gray and black, I am going to add one more mouse hole which will be smaller, and take out the four little holes in the face of the baffle. I also changed the omega baffles, so they will work better.
User avatar
Paledaddy
Elite Member
Posts: 1476
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:17 pm
Location: Stockholm/Sweden

Post by Paledaddy »

hmm dont know if we talk about the same one.. i meen the the cut in the entrance hole in the bullet path of the baffel. I know when i worked on my .223 design i put it one the wrong side as you have.

you want to re direct as much as possible to the coax chamber.

Pd
[b]Bas Rutten[/b] [quote]" I'm sorry Sir..... BANG ! BANG ! BANG !... No I'm not. "[/quote]
paco ramirez
Silent But Deadly
Posts: 4679
Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2007 10:49 pm
Location: Artesia, NM

Post by paco ramirez »

According to the Spectre baffles, it should work, because its the same thing. I'll post pics of the updated baffles soon.

Image
paco ramirez
Silent But Deadly
Posts: 4679
Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2007 10:49 pm
Location: Artesia, NM

Post by paco ramirez »

I was practicing reverse engineering my PMAG, so I could add it to my Solidworks AR15 model. I'm hoping to make a replica of the AR15 I'm building, in Solidworks. Thats also why I CADed a Tango Down VFG look-alike visually (I don't have one yet). I'm not exactly sure what the curve in the mag is supposed to be, so I'm using a 20" circle perpendicular to the lower part of the straight section in front. I messed up on a few things, but I'm not too worried about it. It's just visual, and I can change it later.




Image

Image
paco ramirez
Silent But Deadly
Posts: 4679
Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2007 10:49 pm
Location: Artesia, NM

Post by paco ramirez »

Instead of doing the M14 and M1 Garand receivers, I've decided to model a complete, custom 1911 in Solidworks. I'm modeling it after the Springfield Armory Custom Professional Light Rail.
Phister
Member
Posts: 18
Joined: Mon Apr 21, 2008 7:32 pm

Post by Phister »

paco ramirez wrote:First off, tmix, since I live in California, and am also under age to own

or build any part of a sound suppressor, I wouldn't know if it works

yet because it's illegal to own a sound suppressor in California (unless you

are law enforcement) and nobody under 21 is allowed to build or own a

sound suppressor anywhere in the United States.
I do believe you can build- you cannot transfer from a licensed dealer under 21.
User avatar
JBowles
Member
Posts: 16
Joined: Tue Apr 11, 2006 11:43 am
Location: MO

Post by JBowles »

did I ever show you any of these Paco

Image


animation is pretty easy once you get the knack of in in solidworks
paco ramirez
Silent But Deadly
Posts: 4679
Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2007 10:49 pm
Location: Artesia, NM

Post by paco ramirez »

I've seen those on your Arfcom thread (very nice) :D

My animations suck :lol:

I wouldn't know where to start with the FCG.
Closed Casket
Silent Operator
Posts: 61
Joined: Thu May 22, 2008 1:25 pm
Location: BEHIND YOU

Post by Closed Casket »

I thought it was illegal to think about silencers in California.
jfk
Senior Silent Operator
Posts: 138
Joined: Tue May 31, 2005 3:26 am
Location: West

Post by jfk »

Closed Casket wrote:I thought it was illegal to think about silencers in California.

As long as you're wearing women's clothes and feeling sympathetic towards killers and rapists, then you're okay.

A simple fact, in California prisons are not being built to house dangerous criminals because the lawmakers require prisons to be built with outrageous building specs....A five star hotel in San Francisco (or any other major city) would not be up to code. Prisoners are being released into cities in mass quantities. There's one city (which I will not name) where a motel is housing parolees two to a room. The motel has about 40 rooms.
User avatar
PTK
Silent But Deadly
Posts: 2161
Joined: Wed Mar 19, 2008 11:36 pm
Location: Bozeman, Montana

Post by PTK »

nobody under 21 is allowed to build or own a

sound suppressor anywhere in the United States.

I owned two F1 silencers, an SBS, and two SBRs before I was 21. All form 1s. :)
paco ramirez
Silent But Deadly
Posts: 4679
Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2007 10:49 pm
Location: Artesia, NM

Post by paco ramirez »

To update this thread with more stuff, here are some experimental K baffles using triple porting at the top and bottom of the cone. Modeled for 9mm. I'm still working on getting the renders to stop being shiny.



Image

Image

Image

Image

Image
User avatar
killerofall
Silent But Deadly
Posts: 306
Joined: Tue Jun 17, 2008 2:47 pm
Location: Kansas City

Post by killerofall »

i like this but wouldnt less mouse holes work best to slow the rate of the gasses?
paco ramirez
Silent But Deadly
Posts: 4679
Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2007 10:49 pm
Location: Artesia, NM

Post by paco ramirez »

killerofall wrote:i like this but wouldnt less mouse holes work best to slow the rate of the gasses?

Less would most likely slow the rate, but these holes are a bit smaller than a normal mouse hole would be. It also doesn't use slanted sidewalls, so I'm interested in how it will work using three sideways cuts in the center baffle face wall. It was the DeGroat 9mm can that used the 3 center cuts in the baffle face of the cone baffle. I believe adding 3-4 small holes to the face of the baffle will create a better environment for the triple cone holes to work properly. I guess we'll find out soon enough how well it will work :wink:


The DeGroat baffle:


Image
paco ramirez
Silent But Deadly
Posts: 4679
Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2007 10:49 pm
Location: Artesia, NM

Post by paco ramirez »

With the new porting:



Image


Image
tnrcboatracer
Member
Posts: 23
Joined: Sat Sep 06, 2008 9:22 pm

Post by tnrcboatracer »

I'm new to this forum, and this thread really caught my eye. I'm about half way through this thread, and DAMN, I'm impressed! As an Engineer, I really like what I see. As for your AR with bolt handle, check out the DaeWoo AR100. It's basically an AR15 lower and bolt carrier with and AK gas system. Very reliable and accurate. I picked up mine in '86 (long before Paco was born). Now, If I could only get the select fire trigger group and lower for it. I'm looking at making an F1 can for it.

I am a Process Engineer over an automated CNC line (about $60MM worth of equipment) with access to a state of the art 9 axis CNC turning center. This machine is a hybrid between an lathe and a mill with 1 micron accuracy. Most of the renderings I have seen on here can be made in the system I have access to. If made from aluminum, a K baffle would be produced in about 1 minute. Machine time runs $100/hr. Producing from tool steel would take about 2 minutes/piece.

One last comment about your designs. I see that all your designs thread onto the end of the barrel which is good for a QD or add-on suppressor. I'm looking at something with a primary expansion chamber over the first 5" or so of the bbl like a reflex. I will remove the flash suppressort from my AR and replace with a can that will stay on the weapon 100% of the time (except for cleaning). I'll install and alignment bushing/locking ratchet on the bbl about 1/2" in front of the gas block.
bob332
Silent But Deadly
Posts: 236
Joined: Mon Apr 24, 2006 7:41 am
Location: AZ

Post by bob332 »

tnrcboatracer wrote: I am a Process Engineer over an automated CNC line (about $60MM worth of equipment) with access to a state of the art 9 axis CNC turning center. This machine is a hybrid between an lathe and a mill with 1 micron accuracy. Most of the renderings I have seen on here can be made in the system I have access to. If made from aluminum, a K baffle would be produced in about 1 minute. Machine time runs $100/hr. Producing from tool steel would take about 2 minutes/piece.
where are you located? too bad if we do a f1 can we have to be present or i am sure people would be pouring in and have a can in 15mins + cam time. got some pics of that bad boy?

just out of curiosity, how do you keep the tolerances that tight when the heat from the machined item will change it more than that. i have friends that have conventional cnc equipment and usually the machine is capable of extreme tolerances, but when actually machining, obviously w/ coolant/lubricant as this is an industrial application, they claim a higher tolerance due to the heat of the process. or is the accuracy where it would start and stop an operation?
st33ve0
Silent But Deadly
Posts: 3864
Joined: Sun Apr 06, 2008 7:47 am
Location: Chattanooga, TN
Contact:

Post by st33ve0 »

bob332 wrote:
tnrcboatracer wrote: I am a Process Engineer over an automated CNC line (about $60MM worth of equipment) with access to a state of the art 9 axis CNC turning center. This machine is a hybrid between an lathe and a mill with 1 micron accuracy. Most of the renderings I have seen on here can be made in the system I have access to. If made from aluminum, a K baffle would be produced in about 1 minute. Machine time runs $100/hr. Producing from tool steel would take about 2 minutes/piece.
where are you located? too bad if we do a f1 can we have to be present or i am sure people would be pouring in and have a can in 15mins + cam time. got some pics of that bad boy?

just out of curiosity, how do you keep the tolerances that tight when the heat from the machined item will change it more than that. i have friends that have conventional cnc equipment and usually the machine is capable of extreme tolerances, but when actually machining, obviously w/ coolant/lubricant as this is an industrial application, they claim a higher tolerance due to the heat of the process. or is the accuracy where it would start and stop an operation?
+1 pics or it didn't happen :lol:

Some more modern techniques can probably give you extreme accuracy like that from doing multiple cuts and using coolants to control expansion, but I'm just guessing.
tnrcboatracer
Member
Posts: 23
Joined: Sat Sep 06, 2008 9:22 pm

Post by tnrcboatracer »

I'm in TN. THe line I work on is product specific, and makes automobile engine components.

The 9 axis machine I referred to is a MAZAK Integrex 100-IV ST. It's a $500K machining center (without tooling). You can google it, or look it up at MAZAKUSA.com.

I have several processes on my 7 year old line that a total tolerance window of 16 microns (machining high silicon aluminum). In order to get this level of accuracy, we often gage the part while machining it. We have touch probes that go to a known reference point, and adjust the work offsets based on the sensor feedback. This compensates for the heating of the ball screws in the axis. We also flood cool every thing. The parts are the same temp as the coolant.

We also have several central coolant systems (43,000 gals on my line). The total coolant systems in out plant are about 150,000 gals. We use air gages to measure the critical dimensions.

Some of our critical steel parts are ground to within 3 microns, and then micro polished to within 0.5 microns.

It's amazing what you can do with a few hundred million $$$ in capital.
daschnoz
Member
Posts: 25
Joined: Mon Jun 30, 2008 1:57 pm

Post by daschnoz »

bob332 wrote: too bad if we do a f1 can we have to be present or i am sure people would be pouring in and have a can in 15mins + cam time. got some pics of that bad boy?
What are the legalities around this?

Have the part made - all but the hole in the middle (kind of like the 80% receivers we used to be able to buy). It's kind of hard to get a normal bullet to pass through metal. If you have access to a lathe, you could then chuck up the almost complete beffle and bore the hole - finishing the part, making it what it is supposed to be, with your F1 in your hand. All of the tricky detail work is done on a CNC machine.

Thoughts??????
tnrcboatracer
Member
Posts: 23
Joined: Sat Sep 06, 2008 9:22 pm

Post by tnrcboatracer »

Sounds like you are buying raw material, so I think that there would be no issbue. The part is completely un-functional until the bullet bore is completed. It would be like buying a casting. There is the off axis hole, though that also needs to be made. As long as it is smaller than the bullet, I would think it wopuld be OK, but I'm not a lawyer.
Post Reply