Wood Baffle Parts Making Need To Be A SOT?
Wood Baffle Parts Making Need To Be A SOT?
<< https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XO572xNQ6x4 >>
Carpenter friend at range asked if wood baffles would
require a stamp. He got a 'woody' chuckling at
advocates for suppressors.
It did raise the question if making a wood mock-up
of a suppressor requires a stamp.
When will the HPA pass?
Need a new President friendly to NRA to push.
Carpenter friend at range asked if wood baffles would
require a stamp. He got a 'woody' chuckling at
advocates for suppressors.
It did raise the question if making a wood mock-up
of a suppressor requires a stamp.
When will the HPA pass?
Need a new President friendly to NRA to push.
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Re: Wood Baffle Parts Making Need To Be A SOT?
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Last edited by 0101silent on Thu Oct 12, 2017 10:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Wood Baffle Parts Making Need To Be A SOT?
I made... I mean, I know I guy that made a 3D printed plastic silencer model. It is a one piece cross sectional model that couldn't possibly in any way be used to reduce the report of a firearm. A wood cross sectional silencer model would probably be fine.
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http://www.silencertalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=141800&p=955647#p955647
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Re: Wood Baffle Parts Making Need To Be A SOT?
0101silent wrote:A wooden suppressor wood probably function as a real suppressor.
A Paper Mache model of a suppressor might be ok. I doubt that a paper mache model would reduce the report of a gunshot.
An artist such as the man in the video could make model baffles out of foam and then cast them using the lost foam method when his paperwork is in order.
Bravo, Sir!
A man with a KNOTTY sense of humor is OAK-A with me.
- whiterussian1974
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Re: Wood Baffle Parts Making Need To Be A SOT?
This Topic was previously discussed.
LavaRed made a wooden suppressor for 9mm IIRC and it worked well. (Used in Guatemala so no NFA violations.) She used a flame to "cure" the wood to remove water and char the surface w carbon powder.
I imagine that some forms of wax on the outside would also help protect the wood. Maybe Li soap the blast chamber to quench the flame and absorb initial blast?
The end Finding was that someone complying w NFA would need to cut the "mockup display" in 1/2 to prevent potential usage. Even paper mache would be unlawful if complete. Even though it would probably INCREASE the sound, it fits the Definition that ATF uses. So sectioned parts are the best way to avoid problems.
Of course, there's nothing saying that someone can't insert wooden baffles into a serialized tube.
---
You fellas need to quit being such Saps.
---
The links are now dead, but here is one of the Threads.
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=38184
LavaRed made a wooden suppressor for 9mm IIRC and it worked well. (Used in Guatemala so no NFA violations.) She used a flame to "cure" the wood to remove water and char the surface w carbon powder.
I imagine that some forms of wax on the outside would also help protect the wood. Maybe Li soap the blast chamber to quench the flame and absorb initial blast?
The end Finding was that someone complying w NFA would need to cut the "mockup display" in 1/2 to prevent potential usage. Even paper mache would be unlawful if complete. Even though it would probably INCREASE the sound, it fits the Definition that ATF uses. So sectioned parts are the best way to avoid problems.
Of course, there's nothing saying that someone can't insert wooden baffles into a serialized tube.
---
You fellas need to quit being such Saps.
---
The links are now dead, but here is one of the Threads.
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=38184
The Darkest Corners of Hell are reserved for those who remain Neutral!-Dante
The Death of One is a Tragedy, a million only a statistic.-Stalin
silencertalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=135314
The Death of One is a Tragedy, a million only a statistic.-Stalin
silencertalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=135314
Re: Wood Baffle Parts Making Need To Be A SOT?
WR, you are the greatest! LOL!
"" You fellas need to quit being such Saps. "
You are forcing me to go out on a LIMB
but a ROOTeen check
on GOOGLE will find those who try to PALM
off stinky puns will be attacked by Samurai yelling
BONSAI!
Best, WR my friend.
"" You fellas need to quit being such Saps. "
You are forcing me to go out on a LIMB
but a ROOTeen check
on GOOGLE will find those who try to PALM
off stinky puns will be attacked by Samurai yelling
BONSAI!
Best, WR my friend.
- T-Rex
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Re: Wood Baffle Parts Making Need To Be A SOT?
Bender has commented, several times, that cutaways are still silencers.
As stupid as it sounds, each half is considered a "silencer part" and would need to be registered.
I wonder how the tone would be affected if the baffles were made of wood.
As stupid as it sounds, each half is considered a "silencer part" and would need to be registered.
I wonder how the tone would be affected if the baffles were made of wood.
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Re: Wood Baffle Parts Making Need To Be A SOT?
Cut slits in the sides (like an Omega) and no longer serviceable as a "part." (W/o substantial modification. Just like flat washers.)T-Rex wrote:Bender has commented, several times, that cutaways are still silencers.
LavaRed says that it deepens and dampens the Tone.T-Rex wrote:I wonder how the tone would be affected if the baffles were made of wood.
Which makes since. Each section becomes a Resonance Chamber w it's own pitch (frequency Band.) So what passes through 1, is cancelled into heat or sub-audible vibration by the others. It acts as a series of Frequency Filters.
The Xylem also work as Cilia to absorb rather than reflect the noise.
The Darkest Corners of Hell are reserved for those who remain Neutral!-Dante
The Death of One is a Tragedy, a million only a statistic.-Stalin
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Re: Wood Baffle Parts Making Need To Be A SOT?
I would be concerned that a wooden suppressor might have excessive bark...I wish this was a Free Country! I think the idea of a functioning, Paper mache, suppressor contest would be more fun than a Flugtag, and would produce only biodegradable waste...
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Re: Wood Baffle Parts Making Need To Be A SOT?
I did try a simple wood cone suppressor on a .22lr pistol. Air between front and rear caps was about 4.5" x 1.375". Much-drilled aluminum tubular spacers separating three cones carved from lignum vitae, a very dense and waxy hardwood. Each cone had a scoop milled into one edge. Angles of the cones varied from about 45° to 60°. The result provided more than double the air volume of a 4" x 1" OD K baffle suppressor which delivered surprisingly quiet results using three long K baffles and a urethane wipe. The wooden cone suppressor hurt my ears too much after one shot with CCI SV for me to bother testing a second shot. It sounded almost unsuppressed. I considered trying again but with large wooden K baffles... but felt that it would likely be a waste of time, as the cones were such a complete failure.
Re: Wood Baffle Parts Making Need To Be A SOT?
Informative that some have actually tried using wood
in can construction. Reminiscent of a century (?)
ago indigenous folks in Asia using bamboo wrapped
in wire to make mortars. Bet splinters were a devil
to remove.
In a moment of jocularity some of us once pondered if
the can of stacked sugar donuts close by could fall under the
umbrella of 'silencer parts' as it was sitting on table next
to a match - it did not have a serial number on it or stamp.
Hmm. Could chocolate donut holes placed in a can be considered wipes?
Who would be so daring to even have tried that. Most likely some miscreant who
as a defiant child sneakily tore off
"Do Not Tear Off Under Penalty of Law" labels from under chairs, I bet.
in can construction. Reminiscent of a century (?)
ago indigenous folks in Asia using bamboo wrapped
in wire to make mortars. Bet splinters were a devil
to remove.
In a moment of jocularity some of us once pondered if
the can of stacked sugar donuts close by could fall under the
umbrella of 'silencer parts' as it was sitting on table next
to a match - it did not have a serial number on it or stamp.
Hmm. Could chocolate donut holes placed in a can be considered wipes?
Who would be so daring to even have tried that. Most likely some miscreant who
as a defiant child sneakily tore off
"Do Not Tear Off Under Penalty of Law" labels from under chairs, I bet.
Re: Wood Baffle Parts Making Need To Be A SOT?
Excellent, sir! LOLalordnapa wrote:I would be concerned that a wooden suppressor might have excessive bark...I wish this was a Free Country! I think the idea of a functioning, Paper mache, suppressor contest would be more fun than a Flugtag, and would produce only biodegradable waste...
Reminiscent of the John Birch Society in Belmont MA long ago who
were wrongly considered a SPLINTER Group.
- Bendersquint
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Re: Wood Baffle Parts Making Need To Be A SOT?
Cutaway silencers even if they are non functional are still classified as silencer. As far as the ATF is concerned they are just really poor performing silencers.whiterussian1974 wrote:Cut slits in the sides (like an Omega) and no longer serviceable as a "part." (W/o substantial modification. Just like flat washers.)T-Rex wrote:Bender has commented, several times, that cutaways are still silencers.LavaRed says that it deepens and dampens the Tone.T-Rex wrote:I wonder how the tone would be affected if the baffles were made of wood.
Which makes since. Each section becomes a Resonance Chamber w it's own pitch (frequency Band.) So what passes through 1, is cancelled into heat or sub-audible vibration by the others. It acts as a series of Frequency Filters.
The Xylem also work as Cilia to absorb rather than reflect the noise.
Re: Wood Baffle Parts Making Need To Be A SOT?
Curious, asking a serious question;Bendersquint wrote:
Cutaway silencers even if they are non functional are still classified as silencer. As far as the ATF is concerned they are just really poor performing silencers.
If I had a stamp to make a F1 suppressor, and after making the suppressor decided to cut in in half to look at the inside, would I still be covered under the original stamp? Or would I now need an additional stamp for the other half?
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Re: Wood Baffle Parts Making Need To Be A SOT?
A 2nd Stamp and serial on the 2nd tube half. Plus the parts would need to be fixed and non-removable.mr fixit wrote:If I had a stamp to make a F1 suppressor, and after making the suppressor decided to cut in in half to look at the inside, would I still be covered under the original stamp? Or would I now need an additional stamp for the other half?Bendersquint wrote:
Cutaway silencers even if they are non functional are still classified as silencer. As far as the ATF is concerned they are just really poor performing silencers.
I would argue that you could make the device inoperable. Don't bore an exit in the endcap. Fix something obstructing the bore, etc.
Bender is correct that if you can push the 2 halves together, then each is now a silencer part. But if it is unusable, then they are no more "parts" than a coke bottle, potato, block of rubber, etc. Unless the part is usable non-modified, it isn't a part. It's stock that can be MADE into a part.
But I'm no ATF Attorney. So take my Opinion w a few grains of salt. I'm offering no Advice, just Opinion and Reasoned Reflection.
The Darkest Corners of Hell are reserved for those who remain Neutral!-Dante
The Death of One is a Tragedy, a million only a statistic.-Stalin
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Re: Wood Baffle Parts Making Need To Be A SOT?
mr fixit wrote:Curious, asking a serious question;Bendersquint wrote:
Cutaway silencers even if they are non functional are still classified as silencer. As far as the ATF is concerned they are just really poor performing silencers.
If I had a stamp to make a F1 suppressor, and after making the suppressor decided to cut in in half to look at the inside, would I still be covered under the original stamp? Or would I now need an additional stamp for the other half?
You would be fine as both halves are still there and you could show that both halves made 1 can. Dont cut through the serial though.
If you want to live on the wild side you could even have an SOT reweld it at a later point if you wanted to to play some more.
Last edited by Bendersquint on Mon Oct 10, 2016 12:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Wood Baffle Parts Making Need To Be A SOT?
Why would the cut in half baffles not be able to be removable? Spectre, Multimount, Octane, Dagger, Mite, Element etc.....all those are removable.whiterussian1974 wrote:A 2nd Stamp and serial on the 2nd tube half. Plus the parts would need to be fixed and non-removable.mr fixit wrote:If I had a stamp to make a F1 suppressor, and after making the suppressor decided to cut in in half to look at the inside, would I still be covered under the original stamp? Or would I now need an additional stamp for the other half?Bendersquint wrote:
Cutaway silencers even if they are non functional are still classified as silencer. As far as the ATF is concerned they are just really poor performing silencers.
I would argue that you could make the device inoperable. Don't bore an exit in the endcap. Fix something obstructing the bore, etc.
Bender is correct that if you can push the 2 halves together, then each is now a silencer part. But if it is unusable, then they are no more "parts" than a coke bottle, potato, block of rubber, etc. Unless the part is usable non-modified, it isn't a part. It's stock that can be MADE into a part.
But I'm no ATF Attorney. So take my Opinion w a few grains of salt. I'm offering no Advice, just Opinion and Reasoned Reflection.
ATF has no requirement that a can be able to be mounted to classify it as a silencer. Just means its a bad design. Once a silencer always a silencer, the only way to destroy it and remove from the registry is to squish it, then its just scrap metal.
Re: Wood Baffle Parts Making Need To Be A SOT?
Have I constructively manufactured a suppressor" if I am in possession of say, a Russet Potato and a gun ( I know many hate the term, but I use it to distinguish a boom-stick, gat, weapon, roscoe, etc. from a suppressor which is also a "firearm", depending on your jurisdiction's definition, so please don't make me march back and fourth at repeating a holy mantra distinguishing "rifle" from my "gun" until I fall dead) How about a diet coke can, a roll of duct tape, and a 600 Nitro Express Double rifle? Is a 29 inch barrel on my10-22 a suppressor because it make Colibri ammo quieter than a 16 inch barrel? The answer is easy! Whichever one BATFE says it is. At that time, on that day, in that Court. I think if you made it as far as a jury trial with your 4 foot-long, cross sectioned, suppressor model, you might find someone with a little common sense ( Maybe, few rocket scientists make it onto Juries) but you would probably have to go broke to find out.
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Re: Wood Baffle Parts Making Need To Be A SOT?
If you are relying on a juries interpretation of that should be your first inkling that its probably not kosher.alordnapa wrote:Have I constructively manufactured a suppressor" if I am in possession of say, a Russet Potato and a gun ( I know many hate the term, but I use it to distinguish a boom-stick, gat, weapon, roscoe, etc. from a suppressor which is also a "firearm", depending on your jurisdiction's definition, so please don't make me march back and fourth at repeating a holy mantra distinguishing "rifle" from my "gun" until I fall dead) How about a diet coke can, a roll of duct tape, and a 600 Nitro Express Double rifle? Is a 29 inch barrel on my10-22 a suppressor because it make Colibri ammo quieter than a 16 inch barrel? The answer is easy! Whichever one BATFE says it is. At that time, on that day, in that Court. I think if you made it as far as a jury trial with your 4 foot-long, cross sectioned, suppressor model, you might find someone with a little common sense ( Maybe, few rocket scientists make it onto Juries) but you would probably have to go broke to find out.
Black or White, there is no grey(regardless of what some people think).
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Re: Wood Baffle Parts Making Need To Be A SOT?
B/c once cut open, they are now each silencer parts needing serialization if they aren't contained as 1 unit.Bendersquint wrote:Why would the cut in half baffles not be able to be removable? Spectre, Multimount, Octane, Dagger, Mite, Element etc.....all those are removable.whiterussian1974 wrote:But I'm no ATF Attorney. So take my Opinion w a few grains of salt. I'm offering no Advice, just Opinion and Reasoned Reflection.
ATF has no requirement that a can be able to be mounted to classify it as a silencer. Just means its a bad design. Once a silencer always a silencer, the only way to destroy it and remove from the registry is to squish it, then its just scrap metal.
I was guessing based upon previous posts that you and others have made. You are the best Authority on ATF/NFA law here. You are definitely the Go-to Guy for Legal ?s.
Hence, my Disclaimer. But you have repeatedly proven to be exceptionally well read on these Laws. So you are often the Definitive Answer. The rest of us can only posit Interpretations based upon our Experience.
Just as it's not possible to make extra baffles, I imagined that if they are separated (not contained) then they aren't considered a Single Unit. They become serialized parts. Not only 1 unit.
BTW: if the suppressor is scrapped, would that need to be documented? Otherwise ATF could claim that it wasn't in our Possession, and thus didn't meet "Secured Possession" requirements.
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ETA: Perhaps if all part are contained in 1 box and able to be assembled, then they meet the Single Unit requirement?
I was tired/confused (up all night after covering a 2nd shift) during my earlier post. I thought of possibility of parts being scattered. That was my mistaken and unfounded Presumption. My apologies for any confusion that I caused anyone.
The Darkest Corners of Hell are reserved for those who remain Neutral!-Dante
The Death of One is a Tragedy, a million only a statistic.-Stalin
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The Death of One is a Tragedy, a million only a statistic.-Stalin
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Re: Wood Baffle Parts Making Need To Be A SOT?
Bender is right on Count 1, mistaken on Count 2. Reasonable Doubt and Jury Nullification can cause Grey. So can Hung Juries. (Not Guilty verdict isn't an Innocent Ruling. Just "you got away w it for now." "But we'll get you later, you Dirty Schmuck!)Bendersquint wrote:If you are relying on a juries interpretation of that should be your first inkling that its probably not kosher.alordnapa wrote:Have I constructively manufactured a suppressor" if I am in possession of say, a Russet Potato and a gun...
How about a diet coke can, a roll of duct tape, and a 600 Nitro Express Double rifle? Is a 29 inch barrel on my10-22 a suppressor because it make Colibri ammo quieter than a 16 inch barrel? The answer is easy! Whichever one BATFE says it is. At that time, on that day, in that Court. I think if you made it as far as a jury trial with your 4 foot-long, cross sectioned, suppressor model, you might find someone with a little common sense ( Maybe, few rocket scientists make it onto Juries) but you would probably have to go broke to find out.
Black or White, there is no grey(regardless of what some people think).
In Law, there is rarely White. Only levels of Civil/Criminal Culpability. We are ALL treated as Crown Subjects, and Criminals alluding/escaping Justice. Even Victims are considered Guilty. Contributory Negligence, Secondary Liability, etc.
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If you have a coke bottle, duct tape and rifle all in arms length, WE would arrest for Constructive Possession. (Unless you have a serialized metal strip embedded in the bottle and a Form1 describing the assembled Unit.)
29inch barrel w reduced loads are OK. The barrel is registered. The ammo is Lawful. Unless you commit Act of Misuse, you are Clear.
At Trial, your Lawyer would need the Balls to give Nullification Theory speech. The Judge may hold him in Contempt though. Many Lawyers are Ball-less and refuse to present Vigorous Defense. Just remember that.
You should act as Primary Counsel of Record. Have the Lawyer as a 2nd Seat Research and Protocol assistant. NOT, NOT, NOT your Attorney of Record!
You are also correct about ATF Rulings. Admin Law Hearings SUCK!!! You need a Jury Trial to stand any chance!
===
In Summary, only the Crown/State is "white." We Serfs are simply shades of Grey.
The Darkest Corners of Hell are reserved for those who remain Neutral!-Dante
The Death of One is a Tragedy, a million only a statistic.-Stalin
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Re: Wood Baffle Parts Making Need To Be A SOT?
Incorrect, it is still one silencer or unit(as you called it), its only cut in half. This is why you can't just cut a silencer in half to "destroy" it.whiterussian1974 wrote:B/c once cut open, they are now each silencer parts needing serialization if they aren't contained as 1 unit.
I was guessing based upon previous posts that you and others have made. You are the best Authority on ATF/NFA law here. You are definitely the Go-to Guy for Legal ?s.
Hence, my Disclaimer. But you have repeatedly proven to be exceptionally well read on these Laws. So you are often the Definitive Answer. The rest of us can only posit Interpretations based upon our Experience.
Just as it's not possible to make extra baffles, I imagined that if they are separated (not contained) then they aren't considered a Single Unit. They become serialized parts. Not only 1 unit.
BTW: if the suppressor is scrapped, would that need to be documented? Otherwise ATF could claim that it wasn't in our Possession, and thus didn't meet "Secured Possession" requirements.
---
ETA: Perhaps if all part are contained in 1 box and able to be assembled, then they meet the Single Unit requirement?
I was tired/confused (up all night after covering a 2nd shift) during my earlier post. I thought of possibility of parts being scattered. That was my mistaken and unfounded Presumption. My apologies for any confusion that I caused anyone.
A car cut in half is still just 1 car, just in 2 pieces.
Yes, if it is scrapped you need to notify the ATF that it has been completely destroyed, if you don't you are still responsible for it and if they want to see it and you can produce it then you lost it or gave it away.