.25 ACP can

Yes, it can be legal to make a silencer. For everything Form-1, from silencer designs that are easily made, to filing forms with the BATF, to 3D modeling. Remember, you must have an approved BATF Form-1 to make a silencer. All NFA laws apply.

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Prince Yamato
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.25 ACP can

Post by Prince Yamato »

I want to do my first Form 1 can. I already have two 9mm cans, a shotgun can, and a .22 can, so I figured “what else?”. I’ve got a Beretta 950 in .25acp and I really want to suppress it and always wanted to get a Baby Browning and stick a can on it. So...

Will a .22 aluminum tube with over-bored baffles (probably k baffles) handle .25 acp? In other words, I just drill bigger holes down the center of it?
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Re: .25 ACP can

Post by Capt. Link. »

I love the Baby Browning but the barrels are complex to make.The Beretta .25ACP is a perfect candidate for a K baffle.
I know you have been around here for some time will you be building this yourself?
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Re: .25 ACP can

Post by Prince Yamato »

Yes. I’m hoping to do it all with pre-threaded tubes and minimal effort on my part other than drilling end caps and baffles, after getting my Form 1 back.
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Re: .25 ACP can

Post by Capt. Link. »

To the best of my knowledge the Beretta barrel will need to be sleeved for threading.The the old standard thread for small pocket pistols is 3/8x24.No need to rent a chamber reamer as its a straight walled case and can be bored or a D nose reamer can be made.Only because I'm a old school gunsmith I would love to see you build a eccentric as it would allow the use of standard sights and keep the lines smooth.It would be simple to weld up the whole thing as the .25 is clean burning compared to .22LR and disassembly should not be required.The .25 should be easy to suppress so Ks,cones,step,slant baffles or mono-cores should yield good results.
This is possibly the first .25 auto suppressor built in association with this page.You can make it unique with off the shelf items and I have ideas if you would like some input to the design.
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Re: .25 ACP can

Post by alordnapa »

There were a few people building threaded barrels for the various tip-up Berettas. Unless you can find one , my guess is that Capt Link is right, and you will have to do a little fancy lathe work.There is no reason that I can think of that would prevent you from firing your .25 through a .22 can, as long as you over-bore it a few thousandths....or fire one really hot load once! ( Just kidding about that last part)
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Re: .25 ACP can

Post by ECCO Machine »

Capt. Link. wrote: Thu Apr 09, 2020 5:32 pm I love the Baby Browning but the barrels are complex to make.
The factory barrels can be internally threaded for an adapter

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Re: .25 ACP can

Post by Capt. Link. »

alordnapa wrote: Sat Apr 11, 2020 10:17 pm There were a few people building threaded barrels for the various tip-up Berettas. Unless you can find one , my guess is that Capt Link is right, and you will have to do a little fancy lathe work.There is no reason that I can think of that would prevent you from firing your .25 through a .22 can, as long as you over-bore it a few thousandths....or fire one really hot load once! ( Just kidding about that last part)
You can't legally shoot a larger caliber in a smaller caliber suppressor no matter what the bore size is. Not trying to be a killjoy only wish to protect the group.
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Re: .25 ACP can

Post by alordnapa »

Capt, I believe that the original post concerned building a Form 1 purpose built, specially for a .25, just using the "normal" ( i.e., "Fuel filter) components ordinarily used to build .22 cans.

I was not aware that it was illegal to fire a .25 caliber projectile through a can registered and built as a .22 on the Form 1. Is this a black letter law, or an F-troop interpretation?
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Re: .25 ACP can

Post by Prince Yamato »

To clarify a couple things here:

1) I’m going the solvent trap or pre made tube route.

2) It’s going to be listed as .25 acp on the Form 1. My initial question was asking if, “a .25 can is really just a .22 can with bigger holes in the baffles.” Basically, yes.

3) I’m sending off all guns to be threaded. I don’t have a lathe and if I spend the money for one, then my wife will suddenly have license to spend similarly on something she wants. And that sets a precedent for crazy spending that I don’t want to start.

4) I’m flattered that everyone thinks I’m some great metallurgist with awesome machine skills. I have almost no experience working with metal. If I was making a 5mm Velo dog can out of Home Depot 2x2 pine, then yeah, it’d be pro quality. My hope is that I can make something that performs better than something you’d make out of plans from a 1980s silencer book from a gun show. If I can do that, I’ll be pleased. Honestly, if I screw this up, I’m sending it to Ecco machine. He can fix anything.
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Re: .25 ACP can

Post by Capt. Link. »

alordnapa wrote: Sun Apr 12, 2020 5:49 pm Capt, I believe that the original post concerned building a Form 1 purpose built, specially for a .25, just using the "normal" ( i.e., "Fuel filter) components ordinarily used to build .22 cans.

I was not aware that it was illegal to fire a .25 caliber projectile through a can registered and built as a .22 on the Form 1. Is this a black letter law, or an F-troop interpretation?.
I try not to post anything that is not truthful.
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Re: .25 ACP can

Post by fishman »

There is no reason that I can think of that would prevent you from firing your .25 through a .22 can, as long as you over-bore it a few thousandths
There's an ATF document specifically calling this out as making a new silencer. It would be a felony unless you did another form 1 on this existing silencer.
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Re: .25 ACP can

Post by Prince Yamato »

Ok... just so everyone is on the same page...

This is a FORM 1. I’m making the can.

I wanted to know if making a .25acp can was basically the same as making a .22 can, just putting bigger holes down the center.

I understand the legalities and the Form 1 and can will be marked accordingly.
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Re: .25 ACP can

Post by fishman »

We know. We just want to make extra sure nobody follows alordnapas misinformed suggestion. Yes, mark your can 25 cal (or bigger) and you're gtg.
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Re: .25 ACP can

Post by alordnapa »

With all due respect, to what "misinformed suggestion" do you refer? I think any misinformation came from someone making the assumption that the original post was not referring to a Form 1 can built specifically for a .25 pistol, but rather whether a .25 caliber cartridge could be used in a designated .22LR can. You most assuredly can build a .25 can out of fuel filter parts made or intended to be used in a .22 can.

I am not aware of any regulation that specifically prohibits firing a larger diameter projectile than that designated for the can, but I am ignorant of many of the aspects of the baffling array of laws, rules, policies, and mythology that surrounds the NFA world.

If you meant my facetious statement about firing a projectile that is too big for a bore as a possible method of increasing the bore diameter, that was just a joke, but in fact, the bore diameter of most suppressors will increase over time anyway. I suspect that most people drill out their baffles to .250 for a ".22" can anyway, and given the tolerances that most drill-press-built fuel filter builds may be expected to hold, a bullet diameter of .251 would probably squeak through most sloppy, non-lathe built suppressors without exploding.
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Re: .25 ACP can

Post by fishman »

There is no reason that I can think of that would prevent you from firing your .25 through a .22 can, as long as you over-bore it a few thousandths
You cant take a 22 silencer and overbore it to change its caliber without filing a second tax stamp.
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Re: .25 ACP can

Post by T-Rex »

fishman wrote: Mon Apr 13, 2020 1:34 pmYou cant take a 22 silencer and overbore it to change its caliber without filing a second tax stamp.
There's zero reg's, ruling's, case law, clarification letters, etc (that I've ever seen) to substantiate this.

Open the bore, to repair some baffle strikes, large enough so that a 25cal projectile just happens to pass through (we're talking ~30thou). There's nothing that says this is a caliber change, since the silencer is still engraved and registered for 22. There's also nothing that says firing a 25cal projectile through a silencer registered for 22cal is illegal.

FYI, A caliber change can be legally accomplished, w/o additional stamps. I've done this, more than once.
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Re: .25 ACP can

Post by fishman »

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source= ... 6806429612

"If alterations to a silencer would increase the overall length or change the diameter or caliber of a silencer, this is the making of a new silencer, as opposed to a repair."

I think its an absurd interpretation of the NFA, but its the ATF's published opinion on the matter.
FYI, A caliber change can be legally accomplished, w/o additional stamps. I've done this, more than once.
How? Unless you're an SOT, I dont see how that could be possible given the above document from the ATF.
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Re: .25 ACP can

Post by fishman »

There's nothing that says this is a caliber change, since the silencer is still engraved and registered for 22
so I can take an SBR thats engraved and registered for 223 and put a 20mm upper on it?

No officer, thats not a 20mm destructive device, its registered and engraved as 22 caliber.

Simple logic says that changing the diameter of the baffles so that you can fire another caliber through it than it was designed for is changing the caliber.
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Re: .25 ACP can

Post by T-Rex »

fishman wrote: Mon Apr 13, 2020 2:48 pmso I can take an SBR thats engraved and registered for 223 and put a 20mm upper on it?

No officer, thats not a 20mm destructive device, its registered and engraved as 22 caliber.

Simple logic says that changing the diameter of the baffles so that you can fire another caliber through it than it was designed for is changing the caliber.
First of all, 20mm is designated as a DD and needs to be registered for entirely different reason. So long as the upper was separately registered, yes, it could be done. No difference than putting a 300blk upper on an SBR registered for 5.56mm. The ATF is already requiring something similar, w/ the 50cal uppers. Still legal.

Regardless of your opinion or logic, there's nothing that says it's illegal or that "caliber" is the size of the silencer's bore.
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Re: .25 ACP can

Post by fishman »

What other feature could it possibly be? The ATF clearly acknowles that a specific silencer has a specific caliber and they dont want you modifying your silencer to change the caliber. That is way more than enough information to decide that drilling out a 22 can and putting it on a 25 is against their wishes. Recommending it to people online simply because the ATF didnt define what constitutes a caliber change is irresponsible. If you want to do it and see if the loophole holds in court, by all means, go ahead. Dont tell other people its perfectly legal.

You still haven't answer my question about how you legally changed silencer calibers without a second stamp.
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Re: .25 ACP can

Post by T-Rex »

fishman wrote: Mon Apr 13, 2020 3:13 pm Recommending it to people online simply because the ATF didnt define what constitutes a caliber change is irresponsible. If you want to do it and see if the loophole holds in court, by all means, go ahead. Dont tell other people its perfectly legal.

You still haven't answer my question about how you legally changed silencer calibers without a second stamp.
Stop the white-knighting. There's nothing that says caliber is defined as the bore diameter. If it was, there'd be regulations as to the legal over-bore, per caliber. There's not. The legal caliber is what's filed on the application and engraved on the firearm, period. Stop making it seem like some ATF conspiracy.

This is the exact same as putting a 50 Beowulf upper on a lower, SBR'd for 22lr. Again, no legal doc's that say you can't do it. You're literally putting an entirely different barrel on, regardless of whether you can change it back.

Again, you can 100% legally repair a silencer (say, from baffle strikes) by boring the holes. All w/o being an SOT or otherwise licensed. Nothing says you can't, then, fire it on a larger caliber.

As far as legally changing caliber, read your form 1. Just send an amendment letter. Again, no huge conspiracy. Just a letter saying I was amending the registered caliber. I've done it with length, too. Both shortening AND lengthening a silencer. Completely legal to do so.
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Re: .25 ACP can

Post by fishman »

This is the exact same as putting a 50 Beowulf upper on a lower, SBR'd for 22lr.
except not at all.

There is no atf document saying not to change SBR calibers. There is an ATF document saying not to change the caliber or a silencer.
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Re: .25 ACP can

Post by T-Rex »

fishman wrote: Mon Apr 13, 2020 9:04 pm
This is the exact same as putting a 50 Beowulf upper on a lower, SBR'd for 22lr.
except not at all.

There is no atf document saying not to change SBR calibers. There is an ATF document saying not to change the caliber or a silencer.
And yet, I'm still waiting for you to produce it.
Seeing the fact that I've done it and conveyed my doing so to the ATF, and I'm not in jail, should go to show you just how wrong you are.
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Re: .25 ACP can

Post by alordnapa »

Okay, taking all these considerations into account, let me pose the following statements and questions:

A Suppressor built for .22LR may have a "bore diameter" of .251 or even larger, and therefore physically permit the launching of projectiles .223, .251, .250, etc, irrespective of the cartridge name ( .22 LR vs .223 Remington, for instance. My Aguila SSS ".22LR" rounds mic out around .249)

Is it your position that firing a projectile greater than .22 Caliber through a suppressor marked ".22" constitutes a de facto felony, even without any physical changes being made to the suppressor, but that firing a cartridge with a caliber less than .22 Caliber does not constitute a "Caliber change" within the scope of the definitions listed within the NFA? (I.g, a .17 HMR cartridge, etc) Note that a .22LR projectile has a diameter of nominally .223, so it is larger than ".22 Caliber". Does marking a suppressor as ".22 Caliber" with the intention of firing a projectile greater than .220 constitute a false statement that may be perjury?

In other words, firing a .22 rimfire cartridge through a suppressor marked .22 is okay, even though it is not in fact. .22 diameter, and that firing a high powered rifle through the same can with a diameter of nominally .224 is perfectly permissible, but that firing a .25 ACP cartridge through the same can suddenly presents a prima facie crime in the form of an unauthorized "Caliber Change"?

Does erosion in baffles, cones, and end caps that increases the bore diameter over time constitute a "Caliber Change" within the meaning of the NFA? Is wearing out cones by firing rounds through a suppressor an intentional modification, since it is clearly foreseeable?

Since a 5.56 projectile is actually nominally .223 diameter, is this a "Caliber change"? In other words, does firing a .556 Nato cartridge through a suppressor marked ".22" , even though the projectile is in fact larger in diameter or "Caliber" than a .22, constitute a felony?

A suppressor is a "firearm" within certain legal definitions. If the suppressor is intended for use with a 12 Gauge shotgun, and the bore diameter is greater than .750, and if the terms "Caliber" and diameter are interchangeable, is this not constructively a destructive device?

I think it can safely be argued that suppressor "bore diameter" and cartridge "caliber" are two entirely different values that may or may not be coincidental to any specific design. Further, I think it's logical to assume that the "bore diameter" of a suppressor will nearly always be larger than the stated, nominal "call out" diameter of any given cartridge. The next arguable point is whether any given cartridge that can be fired though any given suppressor is lawful, as long as no modifications to the suppressor are required to do so.

Of course, none of this has any bearing on the original post, which simply asked if the parts used to build a .22 can could be used to build a .25 can, a simple question that does not really require a lot of guard-house lawyering to answer.
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Re: .25 ACP can

Post by fishman »

T-Rex wrote: Mon Apr 13, 2020 11:00 pm
fishman wrote: Mon Apr 13, 2020 9:04 pm
This is the exact same as putting a 50 Beowulf upper on a lower, SBR'd for 22lr.
except not at all.

There is no atf document saying not to change SBR calibers. There is an ATF document saying not to change the caliber or a silencer.
And yet, I'm still waiting for you to produce it.
Seeing the fact that I've done it and conveyed my doing so to the ATF, and I'm not in jail, should go to show you just how wrong you are.
I posted a link like 8 posts ago. April 13th.

Also, a cop saw me speeding and didnt give me a ticket. That doesnt prove that speeding is legal. It doesnt prive that the state police doesnt have a policy about speeding. It proves that nobody thought it was wprth their time to convict me. Your example likewise holds no water.
Last edited by fishman on Wed Apr 15, 2020 8:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
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