NFA FFl Lisc.

Yes, it can be legal to make a silencer. For everything Form-1, from silencer designs that are easily made, to filing forms with the BATF, to 3D modeling. Remember, you must have an approved BATF Form-1 to make a silencer. All NFA laws apply.

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madmacs
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NFA FFl Lisc.

Post by madmacs »

Can A person that holds manufacture FFL contract a machine shop to make NFA compents (ie lower rec. suppressors). It was explained to me that provided the FFL holder was present during the build that this was legal.
Any input would be greatly appreciated
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Post by RavenArmament »

They would need to be licensed as a manufacturer. A type 07 FFL, class 2 SOT, and ITAR registration would be required of both of you. Also a marking variance for them to make the parts with your information on them and not theirs must be filed. This is the answer the ATF will give you.
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Post by Wilder »

It was explained to me that all work had to be done at the address of the licensee.
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Post by RavenArmament »

Yes. When you are a manufacturer you can only perform work on the premises stated on the license or at a bona fide gunshow. If you have work done off premises you must have another 07/02 status for that specific premises or the subcontractor must have the same status. Both manufacturers must be licensed to manufacture in order for a marking variance to be granted.
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Re: NFA FFl Lisc.

Post by Loves2Shoot »

madmacs wrote:Can A person that holds manufacture FFL contract a machine shop to make NFA compents (ie lower rec. suppressors). It was explained to me that provided the FFL holder was present during the build that this was legal.
Any input would be greatly appreciated
Yes, if the FFL has a NFA manufacturing license, they just have to be present and leave with all components manufactured, the machine shop does not need a license.
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Post by sub-sonic »

Yes, if the FFL has a NFA manufacturing license, they just have to be present and leave with all components manufactured, the machine shop does not need a license.

this statment is wrong. you can only manufacture at the address on your licence.
look at what happened to Cav-Arms when they were injection molding parts at a location that was not on their licence
Last edited by sub-sonic on Mon Mar 02, 2009 8:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: NFA FFl Lisc.

Post by RavenArmament »

Loves2Shoot wrote: Yes, if the FFL has a NFA manufacturing license, they just have to be present and leave with all components manufactured, the machine shop does not need a license.
No. The license is for business operations only on the premises on the license.
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Post by mk23 »

So does every 07 FFL / SOT 2 need ITAR registration?

What if you don't transfer out NFA stuff, and mostly do LEO demos and NFA transfers for people?

I know several people in that situation and they don't seem to be paying ITAR fees...
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Post by RavenArmament »

If you are a firearm, ammunition, bullet, firearm part, optics for firearms manufacturer you MUST register. There is no loophole or option. If you are a manufacturer you must register. The law is very clear on this.

§122.1 Registration requirements.
(a) Any person who engages in the
United States in the business of either
manufacturing or exporting defense ar-
ticles or furnishing defense services is
required to register with the Direc-
torate of Defense Trade Controls.
For
the purpose of this subchapter, engag-
ing in the business of manufacturing or
exporting defense articles or furnishing
defense services requires only one occa-
sion of manufacturing
or exporting a
defense article or furnishing a defense
service. Manufacturers who do not en-
gage in exporting must nevertheless
register.


I personally know a lot of 07/02 companies that don't pay ITAR.

Firearms, machine guns, suppressors, bullets, gun powder, primers, rifle scopes are all different categories of defensive articles.
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Post by Fudmottin »

Sorry to be dense. But can you please expand ITAR?

When I looked at the idea of getting the 7/2 and found it financially impossible for me to do at present, I heard nothing of an ITAR. I just thought I would need an appropriately zoned location, licensed business in PA, LLC, and the FFL annual fee + SOT 2 annual fee. Oh, and of course fees from a lawyer who is well versed in NFA + GCA that I would also have on retainer.

If one SOT 2 subs to another SOT 2, would F3s be required? I would expect so. At any rate, this is why I would have an NFA+GCA lawyer on hand. I don't take legal advice from the Internet. Neither should anyone else. The only legal advice anyone should give or take is, "ask a lawyer".

Lawyers are subject to malpractice if they are wrong. It's a small comfort when you are liquidating all your assets for the fines, spending time at club fed, and becoming a prohibited person for life. But it is something.

I know of a lot of people who do the LLC thing (or NFA trust) with just off the shelf software. Lawyers use software too. But they also know the magic incantations that connects an LLC's ownership of an NFA item to your possession of same out at the range.
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Post by mk23 »

freakshow10mm wrote:
I personally know a lot of 07/02 companies that don't pay ITAR.
So what's the deal? Are they all breaking the law???
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Post by RavenArmament »

Fudmottin wrote:Sorry to be dense. But can you please expand ITAR?
Do a google for "ITAR". The regulations can be found on the US State Dept site. It's the first few that pop up.
When I looked at the idea of getting the 7/2 and found it financially impossible for me to do at present, I heard nothing of an ITAR.
The ATF does not and cannot enforce ITAR. They can only enforce the NFA and GCA. HOWEVER, they are checking to see of 07 FFLs (even if you aren't a Class 2) are registered. If not, they will call the State Dept and report you. The State Dept are the ones who enforce ITAR.
If one SOT 2 subs to another SOT 2, would F3s be required? I would expect so. At any rate, this is why I would have an NFA+GCA lawyer on hand. I don't take legal advice from the Internet. Neither should anyone else. The only legal advice anyone should give or take is, "ask a lawyer".
No, they will need a marking variance.
Lawyers are subject to malpractice if they are wrong. It's a small comfort when you are liquidating all your assets for the fines, spending time at club fed, and becoming a prohibited person for life. But it is something.
But it's your ass that will pay the $1 million fine and sit 10 years in jail if you don't pay, not your lawyer.
I know of a lot of people who do the LLC thing (or NFA trust) with just off the shelf software. Lawyers use software too. But they also know the magic incantations that connects an LLC's ownership of an NFA item to your possession of same out at the range.
Varies by state. I filed a one page form, paid $50 to the state of Michigan and was done. I had it looked over by a business lawyer and she said it was perfect.
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Post by RavenArmament »

mk23 wrote:
freakshow10mm wrote:
I personally know a lot of 07/02 companies that don't pay ITAR.
So what's the deal? Are they all breaking the law???
Yes. The quoted text above is quite clear and leaves no room for interpretation. It even clearly states that manufacturers that do not export must register anyway.
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Re: NFA FFl Lisc.

Post by Loves2Shoot »

freakshow10mm wrote:
Loves2Shoot wrote: Yes, if the FFL has a NFA manufacturing license, they just have to be present and leave with all components manufactured, the machine shop does not need a license.
No. The license is for business operations only on the premises on the license.
Ok, I guess my local BATF guy is wrong. The local class III guy who has his baffles made at a local fab shop, and has to sit there while they run his baffles, per the local BATF agent. I've been told this directly from both the from the guy who has the parts made and the guys who own the fab shop.
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Post by Loves2Shoot »

freakshow10mm wrote:
mk23 wrote:
freakshow10mm wrote:
I personally know a lot of 07/02 companies that don't pay ITAR.
So what's the deal? Are they all breaking the law???
Yes. The quoted text above is quite clear and leaves no room for interpretation. It even clearly states that manufacturers that do not export must register anyway.
When I called them they stated something MUCH different than what you are saying.
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Post by RavenArmament »

Did you call the ATF or the US State Dept? Big difference.
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Re: NFA FFl Lisc.

Post by RavenArmament »

Loves2Shoot wrote:Ok, I guess my local BATF guy is wrong. The local class III guy who has his baffles made at a local fab shop, and has to sit there while they run his baffles, per the local BATF agent. I've been told this directly from both the from the guy who has the parts made and the guys who own the fab shop.
The manufacturing is taking place off premises by a non licensed individual. That is illegal. If it were for a Form 1 build, it's fine. But for an 07 FFL it's illegal.

Plain English:
TITLE 27 - ALCOHOL, TOBACCO PRODUCTS, AND FIREARMS

CHAPTER II - BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO, FIREARMS, AND EXPLOSIVES, DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE

SUBCHAPTER B - FIREARMS AND AMMUNITION

PART 478 - COMMERCE IN FIREARMS AND AMMUNITION

subpart d - LICENSES

478.50 - Locations covered by license.

The license covers the class of business or the activity specified in the license at the address specified therein. A separate license must be obtained for each location at which a firearms or ammunition business or activity requiring a license under this part is conducted except: (a) No license is required to cover a separate warehouse used by the licensee solely for storage of firearms or ammunition if the records required by this part are maintained at the licensed premises served by such warehouse; (b) A licensed collector may acquire curios and relics at any location, and dispose of curios or relics to any licensee or to other persons who are residents of the State where the collector's license is held and the disposition is made; (c) A licensee may conduct business at a gun show pursuant to the provision of 478.100; or (d) A licensed importer, manufacturer, or dealer may engage in the business of dealing in curio or relic firearms with another licensee at any location pursuant to the provisions of 478.100.

[T.D. ATF191, 49 FR 46890, Nov. 29, 1984, as amended by T.D. ATF401, 63 FR 35523, June 30, 1998]
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Post by Loves2Shoot »

I've called both.
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Re: NFA FFl Lisc.

Post by Loves2Shoot »

freakshow10mm wrote:
Loves2Shoot wrote:Ok, I guess my local BATF guy is wrong. The local class III guy who has his baffles made at a local fab shop, and has to sit there while they run his baffles, per the local BATF agent. I've been told this directly from both the from the guy who has the parts made and the guys who own the fab shop.
The manufacturing is taking place off premises by a non licensed individual. That is illegal. If it were for a Form 1 build, it's fine. But for an 07 FFL it's illegal.

Plain English:
TITLE 27 - ALCOHOL, TOBACCO PRODUCTS, AND FIREARMS

CHAPTER II - BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO, FIREARMS, AND EXPLOSIVES, DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE

SUBCHAPTER B - FIREARMS AND AMMUNITION

PART 478 - COMMERCE IN FIREARMS AND AMMUNITION

subpart d - LICENSES

478.50 - Locations covered by license.

The license covers the class of business or the activity specified in the license at the address specified therein. A separate license must be obtained for each location at which a firearms or ammunition business or activity requiring a license under this part is conducted except: (a) No license is required to cover a separate warehouse used by the licensee solely for storage of firearms or ammunition if the records required by this part are maintained at the licensed premises served by such warehouse; (b) A licensed collector may acquire curios and relics at any location, and dispose of curios or relics to any licensee or to other persons who are residents of the State where the collector's license is held and the disposition is made; (c) A licensee may conduct business at a gun show pursuant to the provision of 478.100; or (d) A licensed importer, manufacturer, or dealer may engage in the business of dealing in curio or relic firearms with another licensee at any location pursuant to the provisions of 478.100.

[T.D. ATF191, 49 FR 46890, Nov. 29, 1984, as amended by T.D. ATF401, 63 FR 35523, June 30, 1998]
Like I said the local BATF Agent must be wrong, but I do know he approved it.
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Post by RavenArmament »

Loves2Shoot wrote: When I called them they stated something MUCH different than what you are saying.
The above is the actual law. This is also stated in the NFA handbook available on the ATF website. It cannot be said any clearer than quoting the actual law like I did above.

Here you can read all about ITAR. Read the ACTUAL law dealing with part 122 that requires all manufacturers to register. You cannot deny it, it is in plain English and I cannot say it enough. People don't believe me yet the law is right in front of them. http://www.pmddtc.state.gov/regulations ... icial.html

Do this. Send an email to [email protected] that address. Tell them you are a licensed firearm manufacturer in the United States and want to know if you have to register under the ITAR rules as a manufacturer even if you don't export. Post their response. I bet it will be the same one I got this summer when I asked them. "Yes."

It's your ass you are risking. I like my freedom very much. I'd rather pay $2250 per year than $1 million in fines and 10 years in prison. My 2 year old son would love to have me be by his side for those 10 years. If you want to be stupid and ignore the law, that is your business.
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Re: NFA FFl Lisc.

Post by RavenArmament »

Loves2Shoot wrote: Like I said the local BATF Agent must be wrong, but I do know he approved it.
He does not have the power to approve it. He is "approving" of violating the same law he is supposed to enforce. He is a moron and we are paying his salary.
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Post by Loves2Shoot »

Does Defense Export Controls Apply to Me? A Quick Action Checklist
• Find out if what you want to export (hardware, technical data, and/or defense services) is covered in the U.S. Munitions List (USML), found in Part 121 of the ITAR.
• Not sure if your desired export is covered by the USML? File a Commodity Jurisdiction request.
• If what you want to export is on the USML, you must be registered with DDTC.
• After you are registered, you may apply for an export license. D-Trade is the preferred way of licensing.

http://www.pmddtc.state.gov/documents/d ... tarted.pdf

This seems pretty clear what the Defense Export Controls applies to.

The International Traffic in Arms Regulations (ITAR)

Department of State responsibility for the control of the permanent and temporary export and temporary import of defense articles and services is governed primarily by 22 U.S.C. 2778 of the Arms Export Control Act ("AECA"; see the AECA Web page) and Executive Order 11958, as amended. The AECA, among these other requirements and authorities, provides for the promulgation of implementing regulations, the International Traffic in Arms Regulations ("ITAR," 22 CFR 120-130). The ITAR is available from the Government Printing Office (GPO) either as an annual hardcopy publication as part of the Code of Federal Regulations (CFR) or as an e-document. The annual GPO publication includes all amendments to the ITAR made since the last annual printing.

The Arms Export Control Act

22 U.S.C. 2778 of the Arms Export Control Act (AECA) provides the authority to control the export of defense articles and services, and charges the President to exercise this authority. Executive Order 11958, as amended, delegated this statutory authority to the Secretary of State. (The ITAR, elsewhere on this web site, implements this authority.)

I do not have a 07 FFL, nor do I want one. I did look into this though to verify that is does not apply to what I do.
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Post by mk23 »

My SOT claims that since he has never transferred anything he has fabricated, he can claim the research exemption, ie. like universities.
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Post by Bendersquint »

mk23 wrote:My SOT claims that since he has never transferred anything he has fabricated, he can claim the research exemption, ie. like universities.
That just simply is wrong, when I got my FFL/SOT I wanted to get a manufacturer FFL/SOT and there is no such exemption. If you are a manufacturer you must pay ITAR, if you get caught not paying it then doom on you!

Fact is he is manufacturing items covered by the ITAR, he is responsible for paying the fees regardless as to whether or not he has transferred anything or not, its not a transfer fee its a MANUFACTURE fee.

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Post by RavenArmament »

Straight from the ITAR. There is an exemption for R&D.

(b) Exemptions. Registration is not re-
quired for:

(1) Officers and employees of the
United States Government acting in an
official capacity.
(2) Persons whose pertinent business
activity is confined to the production
of unclassified technical data only.
(3) Persons all of whose manufac-
turing and export activities are li-
censed under the Atomic Energy Act of
1954, as amended.
(4) Persons who engage only in the
fabrication of articles for experimental
or scientific purpose, including re-
search and development.
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