Baffle Pattens????

M40A1308M · Post by **M40A1308M** » Tue Mar 13, 2012 8:49 am

I see lately were people are posting there first try at baffle making or form1 making and everybody jumps in and asks if they have permission about a certain baffle design. Now I know abiding by pattens are very important and should be adhered to. Has any body looked at air suppression mufflers and noise suppression systems before? The omega type baffle was invented by SWR huh? I have seen two designs that predate there company by 10 years that resemble omegas.{in NON firearm related items} How long do these pattens last? Or is it strictly only for firearm suppressor builds? Lets say I have a model helicopter and I want it to run quite and I build a muffler that uses a K baffle or omega baffle do I have to call that company to ask permission even if I make slight changes to facilitate a total different application? I am not saying these quality company do not deserve the rights for there design ,but where are the lines drawn on firearm form1 makers? There has been so many designs of suppression tech, it baffles me { PUN intended}. I think one would be on the phone forever and who invented the firearm suppressor tube is it have its own patten? I am not trying to punk patten law I understand why and how its there.I just can see different designs of form1 builders that slightly change a baffle in there own image and everybody jumps in about how they should or didn't get permission. I am just curious on what and how some one could change to NOT infringe on a patten if the baffle design is sound and works great. Will drilling one hole do it? Or does one have to invent there own, I mean you can only turn circular baffles so many ways before one is like the other.

Capt. Link. · Post by **Capt. Link.** » Tue Mar 13, 2012 10:25 am

If anyone reads up on laws that govern patents you will find a idea used in a new way for a new use may be patented.The other that no one considers here is modification to patent ideas.It takes but a few changes to have a different design and a lawyer will not go after dry holes.The pockets of business have limit's and unless you advertize your theft of design few will care.I do support the patent system but it is abused by patient holders as well some patents are not original thought and stagnate progress.
Most of us here dis-wade any practice that may shed a bad light on suppressors or NFA in general.My pet peeve is safety others is the law don't blame the messenger for protecting what he loves.

M40A1308M · Post by **M40A1308M** » Tue Mar 13, 2012 11:10 am

I want to be clear I don't want anyone to think I am saying to skirt the patten laws but it seems to be more of a prevalent thing lately. I was just curious to what a form1 builder has to be wary of as to I would like to complete a build some day myself. And with more and more company's building suppressors than ever I could see more and more red tape.

Capt. Link. · Post by **Capt. Link.** » Tue Mar 13, 2012 1:35 pm

M40A1308M wrote:I want to be clear I don't want anyone to think I am saying to skirt the patten laws but it seems to be more of a prevalent thing lately. I was just curious to what a form1 builder has to be wary of as to I would like to complete a build some day myself. And with more and more company's building suppressors than ever I could see more and more red tape.

Most baffles are not patented so I would not worry.If you wish to copy a baffle verbatim just ask the patent holder most will say yes.Most people copy a known design because they work.If you follow the rules you have nothing to be wary of.Why wait file now a .22 can you designed is always good for bragging rights even if you did not build it.Almost any baffle works on a .22 WW2 ported barrel designs will give you impressive performance and they use no baffles at all.

Armorer-at-Law · Post by **Armorer-at-Law** » Tue Mar 13, 2012 1:54 pm

It takes but a few changes to have a different design

Sometimes; sometimes not.

It's way too complicated to explain here, but here are some questions to consider:

1) Is it patented in whatever country you are located?
2) Has that patent expired? Generally, in the US this is 20 years from the filing date (but there are exceptions). Also, utility patents in the US require that 3 maintenance fees be paid during the life of the patent -- or it will expire early.
3) What do the claims of the patent actually cover? The scope of the patent protection may be much broader or much narrower than what is shown in the drawings.

PaulNoiseLess · Post by **PaulNoiseLess** » Tue Mar 13, 2012 2:00 pm

Hi,

Patents are like Laws (and Homes): Front door and Back door.

Capt., “Almost any baffle works on a .22”, s--t !, that’s too good and easy to be true !

Think about this: Almost any Car works on a Freeway … yes, but it’s not the same driving a BMW or a Mercedes than driving a Toyota or a Hyun-day (“one day” in wherever they are language …).

Patents are like Girl Friends, better don’t talk about them … (especially at Home with your Wife listening “thru” the walls).

Best,

Paul

delta9mda · Post by **delta9mda** » Tue Mar 13, 2012 3:05 pm

so paul are you saying screw the law?

to the op, PATENTS.

Capt. Link. · Post by **Capt. Link.** » Tue Mar 13, 2012 3:17 pm

delta9mda wrote:so paul are you saying screw the law?

to the op, PATENTS.

No I think hes saying only a few baffles work on a .22 even though history proves him wrong.

PaulNoiseLess · Post by **PaulNoiseLess** » Tue Mar 13, 2012 3:23 pm

Hi,

No, but now, I know you don’t have a Wife (or significant partner) and live in a Flat (apartment).

Best,

Paul

Capt. Link. · Post by **Capt. Link.** » Tue Mar 13, 2012 3:51 pm

Armorer-at-Law wrote:
It takes but a few changes to have a different design
Sometimes; sometimes not.

It's way too complicated to explain here, but here are some questions to consider:

1) Is it patented in whatever country you are located?
2) Has that patent expired? Generally, in the US this is 20 years from the filing date (but there are exceptions). Also, utility patents in the US require that 3 maintenance fees be paid during the life of the patent -- or it will expire early.
3) What do the claims of the patent actually cover? The scope of the patent protection may be much broader or much narrower than what is shown in the drawings.

I don't encourage anyone to rip off patents but it is seen every day.It is fairly easy to modify a idea enough to escape prosecution and I don't recommend that either.If you ask most do say yes or wait till the patent has expired or like you said live in a country that dose not cover that patent.The main point is if you follow the basic rules and ask permission there is not much hassle in doing a form 1

Bendersquint · Post by **Bendersquint** » Wed Mar 14, 2012 12:01 am

Is it really that difficult to make a phone call and ask if you can use the patent for a personal Form1 can?

Some patent holders will say YES, others will say NO.

Bowen1911 · Post by **Bowen1911** » Wed Mar 14, 2012 3:59 am

delta9mda wrote: to the op, PATENTS.

I concur

M40A1308M · Post by **M40A1308M** » Wed Mar 14, 2012 5:28 am

I would suppose yes it is difficult as to I have been on the phone with numerous manufactures in my life. Now in this day and age NO ONE want to sign there name to anything. I could see a very big headache to get a signature from a company to use there design. It's not simply calling them up. Any one can call and anyone at the company can say"OK SURE hehehehe " then later sue you. With out the actual patten holders strict permission in writing you have nothing to stand on in court. So yes, I for see a HUGE hassle. Plus for them completing there work on there end as in AAC being a large corporation would have to if they were smart to seek the advice of there legal council in all matters small {form1 builders} to Large { Gov't } when it came to the soul bread winning designs.

Bendersquint · Post by **Bendersquint** » Wed Mar 14, 2012 12:30 pm

M40A1308M wrote:I would suppose yes it is difficult as to I have been on the phone with numerous manufactures in my life. Now in this day and age NO ONE want to sign there name to anything. I could see a very big headache to get a signature from a company to use there design. It's not simply calling them up. Any one can call and anyone at the company can say"OK SURE hehehehe " then later sue you. With out the actual patten holders strict permission in writing you have nothing to stand on in court. So yes, I for see a HUGE hassle. Plus for them completing there work on there end as in AAC being a large corporation would have to if they were smart to seek the advice of there legal council in all matters small {form1 builders} to Large { Gov't } when it came to the soul bread winning designs.

Hmmph, SWR has been doing it for years and hasn't sued anyone and they give verbal permission. Many people on this forum have made Omega baffles because of it.

Take 33 seconds for an email to say "You can use the Omega baffle in your Form1 build". Coming from company email is good enough.

M40A1308M · Post by **M40A1308M** » Wed Mar 14, 2012 12:55 pm

Yea, you say that now until things go the wrong way and a company takes a hit on something because of what you are doing. If it is in writing NO one can dispute it or at least they have less of a chance to do so. I can fake a email, but a signed permission slip would make me feel allot better. Se if everybody starts using the baffle design and a company starts to loose money or a liability issue arises then I bet you things would be different or be reversed very quickly.

It's like when I had my rifles built by Randy Landon of LANDTEC he said "your part of the LANDTEC family now" That does not mean I can start building rifles with his design or his name. Probably not the best example but you get my meaning. I think a legal document would be the best course of action and it would give you a warm fuzzy feeling that you are partially protected.

Bendersquint · Post by **Bendersquint** » Wed Mar 14, 2012 1:15 pm

M40A1308M wrote:Yea, you say that now until things go the wrong way and a company takes a hit on something because of what you are doing. If it is in writing NO one can dispute it or at least they have less of a chance to do so. I can fake a email, but a signed permission slip would make me feel allot better. Se if everybody starts using the baffle design and a company starts to loose money or a liability issue arises then I bet you things would be different or be reversed very quickly.

It's like when I had my rifles built by Randy Landon of LANDTEC he said "your part of the LANDTEC family now" That does not mean I can start building rifles with his design or his name. Probably not the best example but you get my meaning. I think a legal document would be the best course of action and it would give you a warm fuzzy feeling that you are partially protected.

Sorry but thats actually a terrible example but I think I can derive what you are getting at.

M40A1308M · Post by **M40A1308M** » Wed Mar 14, 2012 1:47 pm

Yes OK, I see it was a terrible example but if someone gives you a verbal ok that does not necessarily mean to what ex-stint or scope of what and how you can do something unless it is spelled out for you. So if SWR gives you permission to make a omega is it to be exactly to there spec's or can you change it slightly. And see what if your design is better and you think "well I will start selling this". See what I am saying? Then SWR might have a issue.

By the way sorry SWR for using you in these examples NO disrespect or ill will. I love your products and just confirmed my order of 2 Specter2's 5 min ago LOL

Bendersquint · Post by **Bendersquint** » Wed Mar 14, 2012 2:07 pm

M40A1308M wrote:Yes OK, I see it was a terrible example but if someone gives you a verbal ok that does not necessarily mean to what ex-stint or scope of what and how you can do something unless it is spelled out for you. So if SWR gives you permission to make a omega is it to be exactly to there spec's or can you change it slightly. And see what if your design is better and you think "well I will start selling this". See what I am saying? Then SWR might have a issue.

By the way sorry SWR for using you in these examples NO disrespect or ill will. I love your products and just confirmed my order of 2 Specter2's 5 min ago LOL

You are taking something very simple and making it an issue.

Based on a phonecall one of my customers made a few years ago.

Ring ring,
"Hi, SWR can I help you?"
"Can I use your Omega baffle design for my Form1 can?"
"Yes you can since its a Form1, what are you making?"
"Just a 22, your baffle is awesome".
"No problem, we ask that you don't post dimensions when you are done".
"OK I won't. Thanks alot!"
Click, [hanging up the phone].

Thats it, there is no legal ramble or discussions on modification levels just making sure they won't come after you because you got permission. Thats all.

If you feel you have made modifications that make it quieter a patent attorney can tell you if you have made enough change for your own patent if not then whatever. Lets not even look at the fact that they are giving you permission to do it on a Form1, for you to think of selling it is violating the justification you used to obtain permission and you should know better.

Its really a non-issue thats why in all the years we have been on the board I don't recall ever seeing this issue pop up, just ask the manufacturer and move on, for the most part they have bigger fish to fry. Tons of people have asked various manufacturers for the blessing and a majority get it.

Like I have said before we are our own worse enemy, the more this type discussion is duplicated across the various forum the less chance manufacturers will grant us their use. This is a common theme in the last few years and its causing negative repercussions on many fronts.

Bowen1911 · Post by **Bowen1911** » Wed Mar 14, 2012 2:40 pm

Bendersquint wrote: Ring ring,
"Hi, SWR can I help you?"
"Can I use your Omega baffle design for my Form1 can?"
"Yes you can since its a Form1, what are you making?"
"Just a 22, your baffle is awesome".
"No problem, we ask that you don't post dimensions when you are done".
"OK I won't. Thanks alot!"
Click, [hanging up the phone].

Once again, I concur

Shift1 · Post by **Shift1** » Wed Mar 14, 2012 9:23 pm

I have personally done the same thing....it is not that big a deal.... called them, asked about the patent, asked if I could copy the copy the baffle, recieved a verbal okay. They requested that send an email to them so they could respond with a written document. Very friendly people.....really is a non issue with them. Not trying to bullsh!t or fluff you it really was that easy.

M40A1308M · Post by **M40A1308M** » Thu Mar 15, 2012 5:27 am

I was not trying to make a issue and SWR is not the only manufacture I am wondering about I was only using there omega as an example. It's just been something that seems to be brought to a higher light lately. When this site started it was not as large an issue as I have read near all the post in the silencersmithing forum.

I am purchasing a large machine shop and I was very curious about these subjects and someday when I have time I would like to try making one ,but as I am paranoid about the legal sides to things I was just trying to get a feel for what are the pitfalls and the high lights. Some of you have shops that you have spent your hard earned money on and you would hate to see that striped away for a technicality or legal oversight. So no issue just like to see all angles of a situation. They who ever you call my not feel going after a small form1 machine shop is worth there time but if one were to have 10 million dollar shop they may think different. I have seen the wrong side of legal actions against business and it not pretty.

I think I have some idea what you are saying and it's just different than what I am accustom to.

And bowen1911 do you just follow Bendersquint around here rehashing what he say's? Your post's have 0 value.

Bendersquint · Post by **Bendersquint** » Thu Mar 15, 2012 9:13 am

M40A1308M wrote:And bowen1911 do you just follow Bendersquint around here rehashing what he say's? Your post's have 0 value.

Bowen actually went through the process as I described thats why he chimed in.

Its OK to be paranoid but when you see that everyone else isn't should be an indicator that you should stop watching for the black helicopters.

Who cares how big or small your machine shop is especially when the keywords are "FOR MY PERSONAL FORM1 SILENCER". There are people that have gotten approvals that have personal worth exceeding the value of your shop. So the value of your business is a moot point since your request is as an individual, where you do the work is inconsequential.

This is obviously far different than your previous experiences so maybe you should listen to the people that have done it and have experience in this industry.

SWR is the most popular request, what other companies were you thinking about, we can let you know what our experiences are.

M40A1308M · Post by **M40A1308M** » Thu Mar 15, 2012 9:36 am

Is SWR the most popular because of the ease of the baffle design? And others like Elite Iron and AAC come to mind.

And I have talked to the people in the field more than once and had a bad experience already. Have you ever talked to J.D. Jones ????

He puts you on a law suit list just for saying *300Whisper. I was building a rifle from a savage BAT action in 221 fireball and called him for advice and winded up on his screwy law suit list.{at least that's what he claimed after he stopped yelling and screaming}Nothing ever came of it but it stopped me from building the rifle and it was for me NOT to sell. So you see there are somethings that are not the most positive.

I thank you for all the answers it will give me a place to start and think.

* 300 Whisper is a trademark of J.D. JONES *

Bendersquint · Post by **Bendersquint** » Thu Mar 15, 2012 9:52 am

M40A1308M wrote:Is SWR the most popular because of the ease of the baffle design? And others like Elite Iron and AAC come to mind.

And I have talked to the people in the field more than once and had a bad experience already. Have you ever talked to J.D. Jones ????

He puts you on a law suit list just for saying *300Whisper. I was building a rifle from a savage BAT action in 221 fireball and called him for advice and winded up on his screwy law suit list.{at least that's what he claimed after he stopped yelling and screaming}Nothing ever came of it but it stopped me from building the rifle and it was for me NOT to sell. So you see there are somethings that are not the most positive.

I thank you for all the answers it will give me a place to start and think.

* 300 Whisper is a trademark of J.D. JONES *

I think SWR is the most popular thats posted because of performance not ease of manufacturer, there are other baffles that are far easier to make.

OK I will clarify more, the NFA community not guns in general. The NFA community is totally different than general firearms.

Yes I have spoken at length with JD Jones and while gruff he had no problem talking to me about how to get my 300/221 Fireball to run correctly. Never got put on his lawsuit list or threatened, just told that I can't say 300Whisper without sending him a check. In all honesty you couldn't have picked a worse person to speak with for your impression of the gun community, he's still sore about the whole 300BLK thing.

Elite Iron aren't anything special nor do they have a patent that I am aware of so if something is not patented you are free to use it, which with your experience should be already known.

AAC has been asked before(according to posters here and on other forums) about using their X type baffle design and were told, its patented and no you can't use it, same goes for the Prodigy and monocore designs. The 60 degree cone that they use is not patented however.

slickster81 · Post by **slickster81** » Thu Mar 15, 2012 10:05 am

As someone who holds a patent, and has had to defend it, I can assure you someone using your design causes great concern. In my case, the person had used my exact design, produced 100k units, and was retailing them on the West Coast, when I contacted him he said "my lawyer said I didn't have to bother with a patent search since the item I was copying probably wasn't patented". Probably?
I think I said "Huh?" (after retrieving my jaw from the floor). I then informed him very politely that he would "cease and desist" from his sales, and that he would be receiving a detailed letter from my patent attorney outlining the documents that would be required to resolve the issue. At first the gentleman was polite, said he was sorry, didn't mean to step on anyone's toes, was just trying to make a living, had invested thousands in the dies, manufacture, packaging etc...and would I like to buy him out? (jaw hits floor again) I said we would discuss the matter via our respective attorneys.
Long story short, I spent a lot of money in attorney fees, never went to court, and offered the gentleman what I thought a fair price for his inventory, which he refused stating it wasn't enough. So he has (last time I checked a few months ago) a warehouse full of product he cannot sell. (at least without me going after him again)
We spend money to protect our property, be it design, utility or intellectual, and we will spend money to defend our property rights. As previously stated by others, if you make a SIGNIFICANT design change (USPTO verbiage defines significant in no uncertain terms) then your design may be patentable after review.

Baffle Pattens????

Baffle Pattens????

Re: Baffle Pattens????

Re: Baffle Pattens????

Re: Baffle Pattens????

Re: Baffle Pattens????

Re: Baffle Pattens????

Re: Baffle Pattens????

Re: Baffle Pattens????

Re: Baffle Pattens????

Re: Baffle Pattens????

Re: Baffle Pattens????

Re: Baffle Pattens????

Re: Baffle Pattens????

Re: Baffle Pattens????

Re: Baffle Pattens????

Re: Baffle Pattens????

Re: Baffle Pattens????

Re: Baffle Pattens????

Re: Baffle Pattens????

Re: Baffle Pattens????

Re: Baffle Pattens????

Re: Baffle Pattens????

Re: Baffle Pattens????

Re: Baffle Pattens????

Re: Baffle Pattens????