Worst Design Ever

Yes, it can be legal to make a silencer. For everything Form-1, from silencer designs that are easily made, to filing forms with the BATF, to 3D modeling. Remember, you must have an approved BATF Form-1 to make a silencer. All NFA laws apply.

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wolf
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Re: Worst Design Ever

Post by wolf »

clevis hitch wrote:And exactly what country is this? To say that suppressors nd suppressor design is anything other than hard science is to not understand the sciences that you are dealing with. As far as Google sketch versus solid works. You don't know much about CADD either. From where I stand you sound like you are full of s--t.
If i follow you logic , then Maxim was a fool , not able to make some nice things 8)

But ,,

i still prefer a can that is super , but no one can explain why it is so good ,,over a bad can that the designer can tell everything about

one might not be able to tell every aspect of why its a bad idea to stick your finger into a flame

sometimes its enough just to know the result


science is a helping hand/tool ,, but many good things have been made without

my best bet is that every new improvement in supressors design the last two years , is not the result of science 8)

its try and error,, they ended up with some cans , and not science did tell wich one was the best ,, it was the test
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Capt. Link.
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Re: Worst Design Ever

Post by Capt. Link. »

Bravo Wolf ++
The only reason after 243 years the government now wants to disarm you is they intend to do something you would shoot them for!
http://www.silencertalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=79895
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Re: Worst Design Ever

Post by PaulNoiseLess »

Hi,

From the 2012 AAC Catalog:

AAC’s core group of thinkers and designers then work with these concepts in the virtual world of solid-model engineering. After a run through the latest computational fluid
dynamics and finite-element-analysis software, our inventions take shape as prototypes which are tested for sound, flash, and durability.


Capt. Link for Novell Prize !

Good for you.

Best,

Paul
The future is not waiting for us, it is waiting within us ...
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Re: Worst Design Ever

Post by LavaRed »

My friends, I do not wish to be a cause of dischord here. So please let me clarify something. I have never once implied or said that computer assisted fluid-flow analysis is detrimental to suppressor design. If I don't normally use it, it is because I am most comfortable in my method, which is working by inspiration and simple modelling only to put my ideas on paper for my machinists. Of course fluid-flow modelling and solidworks are very good tools for suppressor design. But they are just that: Tools. I am quite certain even the great manufacturers' designs were also born out of mere inspiration, and that computers were but an aid for refining an idea that was fully formed in someone's mind to begin with. If I do not normally use SolidWorks or AutoCad it is not out of ignorance, simply out of preference. In the same way that I sometimes prefer the analog over the digital, because it allows me to be more closely involved to what I am doing.
I have never attempted to imply that either me, my methods, or designs are the best. Do I aim to be the best? Of course. Blessed as I am with extraordinary brainpower, at the end of the day I am merely human and simply aim to be the best. And I try to learn from the best as I go along, as well. I have never once made claims to anything, or endorsed one method or another. I have simply limited myself to enjoying and partaking of the great, free-sharing of ideas that this site affords, and made some of the most wonderful and genius-endowed friends I could have dreamed of. I will simply let my designs speak for themselves, and others be the objective judges of their effectiveness.
To date, I have produced merely about 15 suppressors in different calibers, and performed many variations and modifications upon each one. Of these, I would consider perhaps 3 or 4 to be successful. I am sure this is a reasonable rate of trial and error even for a corporate manufacturer. Much more for an amateur ingeniur working on a limtied budget as a hobby and with limited means of production. But I do not complain of my circumstances. Rather I embrace them, for they have taught me the true value of engineering training.
I am sure most here would consider me to be full of s--t if I told you I'm aged 24. I completed my engineering degree 3 years ago, and have been in Master's program for Business Administrastion and Strategy since, which I stand to finish this year. I plan to get into Law School next year. But I'm a geek. I have to spend my time studying and obtaining knowledge. It is my one Vice (save for good eating).
I do not like to see us fight amongst ourselves. I see us as akin to the Esoteric Brotherhood of old, toiling away in our labs and workbenches, ceaselessly, rewardlessly, to perfect an Art which was understood by few, and feared and repulsed by many. I believe we should stand together and work to learn from one another in a free spirit, not seek to fight each other and create division.
Thank you for listening,
LavaRed
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Re: Worst Design Ever

Post by daviscustom »

clevis hitch wrote:And exactly what country is this? To say that suppressors nd suppressor design is anything other than hard science is to not understand the sciences that you are dealing with. As far as Google sketch versus solid works. You don't know much about CADD either. From where I stand you sound like you are full of s--t.
Did you just wake up and decide.....hummm, I wonder how many people I can piss off on ST today?

I think you should tone it down a little, build your first computer designed/analyzed can .....see how it works .....and then if you still feel it is needed, jump in with both feet and start criticizing everyone's training and methods.

You just got here.... Did you join the group so you could educate us all on how silencers work or were you hoping to be a part of the dialogue and on-going pursuit of better suppressor design? Most of us are here to learn from each other....why are you here?
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Re: Worst Design Ever

Post by Trex »

clevis hitch wrote:And exactly what country is this? To say that suppressors nd suppressor design is anything other than hard science is to not understand the sciences that you are dealing with. As far as Google sketch versus solid works. You don't know much about CADD either. From where I stand you sound like you are full of s--t.
Thats pretty rude my friend, bear in mind that there are other educations systems around the world where final qualifications and terms are used differently.

I'm with Lava (and others) on this, suppressor design is to some extent an art and only final testing and modification will let the designer see if his prototype is worth the effort.

You can flow test and design analyze all you want and eventually you will see that while it has some uses, in most instances (in this subject) the end result will be in you pulling out your hair. :lol:

As for CADD I personally have no time for it, preferring pencil and paper for quick results prior to machining, if the final design warrants it, then it can be drawn up in CAD and machine programs written if required.

Once you have built a few you will understand the point the previous posters are trying to make to you, in the meantime you can crunch numbers and we others will draw/scribble and cut metal.
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Re: Worst Design Ever

Post by epicdoom »

PaulNoiseLess wrote:Hi,

From the 2012 AAC Catalog:

AAC’s core group of thinkers and designers then work with these concepts in the virtual world of solid-model engineering. After a run through the latest computational fluid
dynamics and finite-element-analysis software, our inventions take shape as prototypes which are tested for sound, flash, and durability.


Capt. Link for Novell Prize !

Good for you.

Best,

Paul
The operative word there is PROTOTYPES thats when you develop after the design for what? to test and to test some more and sometimes the prototypes FAIL and thats why you test and test and test some more and when all is said and done you test it again. theory of operation does not an operation make Paul. all sorts of unforseen things can happen and do on the regular. Dont believe me please confirm it for yourself. (Murphys law) brother 2 simple words. The wonderfull age of CAD and design tools is no doubt powerfull no one will debate that computers can do wonderfull things like crunch numbers in min's that would take a week by hand it all means nothing without testing any company who tells you they design and make there products and send them directly to market is full of s--t and wont be in bussiness long I assure you. If I chuck up a hunk of bronze in my lathe and turn a bushing for you that is supposed to fit a precise shaft I throw the old eyeball gage on it and ship it out how good a fit you think you'll have? I will tell you I been doing it a good long time and my calibrated eye is fairly good provided the battery is charged. Wanna trust me??? send me some measurments. Now on the other hand I test it with some means of accurate measurement tool I promiss you wont be dissapointed and I gaurentee it will be exactly as you wanted it to be speced. Computers are fantastic but there never any better then the man or woman inputting data into it we as humans are foulable period. The day a copmuter thinks for it's self inputs its own data and kicks out perfection Ill buy it and sit on my ass forever.

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Re: Worst Design Ever

Post by PaulNoiseLess »

Hi,

Good for you.

Best,

Paul
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Re: Worst Design Ever

Post by delta9mda »

Capt. Link. wrote:
PaulNoiseLess wrote:Hi,

Capt. Link. says: “There is science that is not fully understood with suppressors and to complex for your computer …”

Oh, my God !

Anyway, good for you.

Best,

Paul
The proof of not understanding is in your blueprints that I have seen.
damn owned again.
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Re: Worst Design Ever

Post by MCKNBRD »

clevis hitch wrote:And exactly what country is this? To say that suppressors nd suppressor design is anything other than hard science is to not understand the sciences that you are dealing with. As far as Google sketch versus solid works. You don't know much about CADD either. From where I stand you sound like you are full of s--t.
Clevis, from where everyone on this board stands, you're knee-deep in it and digging furiously. If you have anything other than your whopping 4 posts to base your experience on, please....PLEASE do share.

LavaRed has answered many questions on this forum; some of them mine. He's given good, prudent guidance, based on personal and professional experience, and done it freely. He has never said that he has 'figured it out' or that his way is the only way...he's just using his mind, intuition, experience, and knowledge to come up with some damn good ideas.

You come in here, like a 'seagull' manager...squawking and shitting on everything else...then swoop out and blame someone else for the mess.

If suppressor design is just simple 'hard science', why don't you just whoop up a great little .30 cal can and impress us all. Of course, we'll need to see the calculations used, materials list, blueprints, 3d renderings (complete with ACCURATELY modelled flow, of course), and pics of the build. Oh, and since its simply 'hard science' and nothing more, go ahead and whip one out and get it tested to the .mil standard. Make something better than all those old-style experimental cans, and someone may take you seriously.

Until then, assclown, you're just another troll.

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Re: Worst Design Ever

Post by madbear »

And exactly what country is this? To say that suppressors nd suppressor design is anything other than hard science is to not understand the sciences that you are dealing with. As far as Google sketch versus solid works. You don't know much about CADD either. From where I stand you sound like you are full of s--t.
Damn clevis, if your the future of engineering, thats scary YOU CAN'T EVEN READ!
i guess he's full now after that much FOOT IN MOUTH ! :lol:
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Re: Worst Design Ever

Post by 57fairlane »

ghostdog662 wrote:That aluminum spacer where the expansion/blast chamber (top left corner) is ridiculously thin at the bottom.
Even if that spacer was made out of titanium, I would still feel a little apprehensive about something that thin right next to the muzzle.

I can only imagine it was made with a mandrel in it because its thin enough that it would have easily collapsed if you tried machining it without one in the bore. And if you need a mandrel for something inside a silencer . . . its probably too thin.
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Re: Worst Design Ever

Post by ghostdog662 »

57fairlane wrote:
ghostdog662 wrote:That aluminum spacer where the expansion/blast chamber (top left corner) is ridiculously thin at the bottom.
Even if that spacer was made out of titanium, I would still feel a little apprehensive about something that thin right next to the muzzle.

I can only imagine it was made with a mandrel in it because its thin enough that it would have easily collapsed if you tried machining it without one in the bore. And if you need a mandrel for something inside a silencer . . . its probably too thin.
I definitely share the same apprehension. That's one area where the safety overrides the possible weight reduction, no brainer. I'd somewhat entertain a few holes drilled to possibly save some weight but I'd rather hump around something heavy than wonder "are those holes I drilled gonna be it's weakpoint."
LP
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Re: Worst Design Ever

Post by Bendersquint »

ghostdog662 wrote:
57fairlane wrote:
ghostdog662 wrote:That aluminum spacer where the expansion/blast chamber (top left corner) is ridiculously thin at the bottom.
Even if that spacer was made out of titanium, I would still feel a little apprehensive about something that thin right next to the muzzle.

I can only imagine it was made with a mandrel in it because its thin enough that it would have easily collapsed if you tried machining it without one in the bore. And if you need a mandrel for something inside a silencer . . . its probably too thin.
I definitely share the same apprehension. That's one area where the safety overrides the possible weight reduction, no brainer. I'd somewhat entertain a few holes drilled to possibly save some weight but I'd rather hump around something heavy than wonder "are those holes I drilled gonna be it's weakpoint."
Plus the fact that said hole probably reduced the weight around .5 oz. Not enough for the increased risk if you ask me.
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Re: Worst Design Ever

Post by clevis hitch »

If, with my limited experience I started SELLING designs. Unproven designs. Someone built a suppressor with one of my designs and suffered a injury because of the design failure, you would all be standing in line to berate me. The thing that I focused on is "what qualifies this guy to sell designs". His glossing over of what power a computer brings to the table. His foggy reference to his education and his self-agrandizing about how powerful his minds is...

He could submit prints of the design in question to show that the builder didn't follow the print. That would exonerate the designer.

He could give the customer his money back if his design was flawed and get a non-disclosure statment from the customer.

In America, if you bring something to the market place you are liable if not culpable for that design. If someone gets hurt because you missed something or glossed over a safety issue or just didn't give proper warning that if a product if misused can cause harm.

Its one thing to be on here and pass around design ideas and give opinions on whats the best design or what works and what doesn't. But when you SELL a design them you are putting your name/reputation/finances on the line.

With the way that the goverment looks at NFA, we as a community can ill afford a "designer" run amuk. Imagine if the press got a hold of a story of someones suppressor coming apart. How long do you think the public would tolerate "dangerous" suppressors?

I take personal umbrage to someone who glosses over the "science" aspect of suppressors and claims to be a engineer. Who then retracts and says that they are more of an artist than a engineer. So what is this guy, "the artist formerly known and an Engineer"? Ass-clowns like this give Engineers a bad name. If you want to sell your "designs" you should qualify yourself first to your customers as an "artist" and not an Engineer.
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Re: Worst Design Ever

Post by PaulNoiseLess »

Hi,

In America, what most OverSeas businesses do is what i did: Send the case to the Lawyers in USA. I just got Notary confirmation, few minutes ago, of witnessing certifying this whole thread, including member Alias by special request.

I also got valid USA Court documentation and certification on Designs, Blue Prints and E-Mails crossed with the Customer. I’m sending to my Lawyers in USA tomorrow.

I’ll be traveling to USA as soon as they give me a recommendation.

In the meantime, I’ll say what I said before: Good for you ... and now, good luck ...

Cheers,

Paul
The future is not waiting for us, it is waiting within us ...
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Bendersquint
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Re: Worst Design Ever

Post by Bendersquint »

...where's my bag o' popcorn?
Last edited by Bendersquint on Tue Apr 24, 2012 2:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Worst Design Ever

Post by delta9mda »

folks, gte your pop corn ready and drinks..... this is going ot be good.
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wolf
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Re: Worst Design Ever

Post by wolf »

clevis hitch wrote:If, with my limited experience I started SELLING designs. Unproven designs. Someone built a suppressor with one of my designs and suffered a injury because of the design failure, you would all be standing in line to berate me. The thing that I focused on is "what qualifies this guy to sell designs". His glossing over of what power a computer brings to the table. His foggy reference to his education and his self-agrandizing about how powerful his minds is...

He could submit prints of the design in question to show that the builder didn't follow the print. That would exonerate the designer.

He could give the customer his money back if his design was flawed and get a non-disclosure statment from the customer.

In America, if you bring something to the market place you are liable if not culpable for that design. If someone gets hurt because you missed something or glossed over a safety issue or just didn't give proper warning that if a product if misused can cause harm.

Its one thing to be on here and pass around design ideas and give opinions on whats the best design or what works and what doesn't. But when you SELL a design them you are putting your name/reputation/finances on the line.

With the way that the goverment looks at NFA, we as a community can ill afford a "designer" run amuk. Imagine if the press got a hold of a story of someones suppressor coming apart. How long do you think the public would tolerate "dangerous" suppressors?

I take personal umbrage to someone who glosses over the "science" aspect of suppressors and claims to be a engineer. Who then retracts and says that they are more of an artist than a engineer. So what is this guy, "the artist formerly known and an Engineer"? Ass-clowns like this give Engineers a bad name. If you want to sell your "designs" you should qualify yourself first to your customers as an "artist" and not an Engineer.

:?: :?: Who are you talking about :?: :?:

you did ask LAVA about his education

But he dont sell blueprints

al he has done is giving free info ,, even about his mistakes , so others mignt prevent doing the same mistakes


by the way , one can be a enginer , and yet not know the science of how a can really works ,,and still make the best can

by trying , by changine one thing at a time , or bring in new ideas

if you are so shure science is the ansver , then some must have that knowlegde already . that means some are able to make THE ultimate can ,,,, a can that NEVER will be beaten , because science has shown how to make the best


by the way science means knowledge

nobody knows how the universe really is ,,, so the science is flawed about that

but it dosnt mean the universe dosnt exist

some who has made a good can dosnt have to be able to explain WHY it is good

people will buy it if it is good ,, no explanation needed


then there was this girl , nobody could quite explain what it was about her ,, and most didnt care :wink: they just wanted ,,, 8)
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Re: Worst Design Ever

Post by Trex »

again Clevis, please read Wolfs post above...

LavaRed does not sell designs tested or untested, you seem to have some issue with him for whatever reason, I have no idea why. Perhaps because he is an Industrial Engineer? Qualified where as yet you are not? Perhaps because he has prior experience and as yet you have not? Perhaps just because he has an opposing viewpoint from yourself about the benefits of CADD and flow dynamics, as many of us do, trust me several people here much smarter and with better resources than you and I have tried to apply "science" to this subject with limited success. I'm sure as you gain some experience you will understand this area of technology is not as clear cut as you seem to presently think.

When the time comes, a number of us will be standing ready with a large humble pie for your consumption. :wink:

There is another party who the discussion is "actually" centering around regarding selling unproven and proven designs, it's about time you grasped that little detail.

Your lack of comprehension is disturbing for someone supposedly so smart and wanting to enlighten those of us who disagree with your point of view.
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Re: Worst Design Ever

Post by clevis hitch »

Trex wrote:again Clevis, please read Wolfs post above...

LavaRed does not sell designs tested or untested, you seem to have some issue with him for whatever reason, I have no idea why. Perhaps because he is an Industrial Engineer? Qualified where as yet you are not? Perhaps because he has prior experience and as yet you have not? Perhaps just because he has an opposing viewpoint from yourself about the benefits of CADD and flow dynamics, as many of us do, trust me several people here much smarter and with better resources than you and I have tried to apply "science" to this subject with limited success. I'm sure as you gain some experience you will understand this area of technology is not as clear cut as you seem to presently think.

When the time comes, a number of us will be standing ready with a large humble pie for your consumption. :wink:

There is another party who the discussion is "actually" centering around regarding selling unproven and proven designs, it's about time you grasped that little detail.

Your lack of comprehension is disturbing for someone supposedly so smart and wanting to enlighten those of us who disagree with your point of view.
So I stand corrected. LAVA if you're not selling flawed designs then my most sincere apologies. This thread has become very confusing. So why doesn't somebody explain the inferences that I'm obviously missing.
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Re: Worst Design Ever

Post by urban assault »

PaulNoiseLess wrote:Hi,

In America, what most OverSeas businesses do is what i did: Send the case to the Lawyers in USA. I just got Notary confirmation, few minutes ago, of witnessing certifying this whole thread, including member Alias by special request.

I also got valid USA Court documentation and certification on Designs, Blue Prints and E-Mails crossed with the Customer. I’m sending to my Lawyers in USA tomorrow.

I’ll be traveling to USA as soon as they give me a recommendation.

In the meantime, I’ll say what I said before: Good for you ... and now, good luck ...

Cheers,

Paul
Are you serious? Your first thought is to try to involve lawyers over a stupid Internet thread?

Brother, let me help you out because you are in need of this...

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Re: Worst Design Ever

Post by LavaRed »

clevis hitch wrote:
Trex wrote:again Clevis, please read Wolfs post above...

LavaRed does not sell designs tested or untested, you seem to have some issue with him for whatever reason, I have no idea why. Perhaps because he is an Industrial Engineer? Qualified where as yet you are not? Perhaps because he has prior experience and as yet you have not? Perhaps just because he has an opposing viewpoint from yourself about the benefits of CADD and flow dynamics, as many of us do, trust me several people here much smarter and with better resources than you and I have tried to apply "science" to this subject with limited success. I'm sure as you gain some experience you will understand this area of technology is not as clear cut as you seem to presently think.

When the time comes, a number of us will be standing ready with a large humble pie for your consumption. :wink:

There is another party who the discussion is "actually" centering around regarding selling unproven and proven designs, it's about time you grasped that little detail.

Your lack of comprehension is disturbing for someone supposedly so smart and wanting to enlighten those of us who disagree with your point of view.
So I stand corrected. LAVA if you're not selling flawed designs then my most sincere apologies. This thread has become very confusing. So why doesn't somebody explain the inferences that I'm obviously missing.
That's alright. Perfectly understandable. I don't sell designs. I happily offer complete prints, plans and knowledge for free. Or rather in the spirit of making the Art of suppression better for all of us. I'll be happy to give you prints of any of my designs that you want, if Sketchup prints are OK with you. It's my preferred media, so much so that I no longer installed AutoCad or Solidworks on my new computer. Everyone I've sent sketchup prints to before has been satisfied.
I will, however, always state that suppression is mostly an Art, and science is just a tool. To put it into perspective: Giving a K baffle a Dater hole or half moons is art. Science just helps you explain why it works. But seldom would science tell you to add this or that feature, with a few exceptions. Only creativity and inspiration will do that.
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Re: Worst Design Ever

Post by delta9mda »

urban assault wrote:
PaulNoiseLess wrote:Hi,

In America, what most OverSeas businesses do is what i did: Send the case to the Lawyers in USA. I just got Notary confirmation, few minutes ago, of witnessing certifying this whole thread, including member Alias by special request.

I also got valid USA Court documentation and certification on Designs, Blue Prints and E-Mails crossed with the Customer. I’m sending to my Lawyers in USA tomorrow.

I’ll be traveling to USA as soon as they give me a recommendation.

In the meantime, I’ll say what I said before: Good for you ... and now, good luck ...

Cheers,

Paul
Are you serious? Your first thought is to try to involve lawyers over a stupid Internet thread?

Brother, let me help you out because you are in need of this...

Image

-urban
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA OH s--t HAHAHAHAHA LOLOLOLOLOL
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Re: Worst Design Ever

Post by RavenArmament »

PaulNoiseLess wrote:Hi,

In America, what most OverSeas businesses do is what i did: Send the case to the Lawyers in USA. I just got Notary confirmation, few minutes ago, of witnessing certifying this whole thread, including member Alias by special request.

I also got valid USA Court documentation and certification on Designs, Blue Prints and E-Mails crossed with the Customer. I’m sending to my Lawyers in USA tomorrow.

I’ll be traveling to USA as soon as they give me a recommendation.

In the meantime, I’ll say what I said before: Good for you ... and now, good luck ...

Cheers,

Paul
So interpersonal communication skills we were taught during socialization in our childhood were cast aside for this bullshit over an Internet thread on a hobby forum? You can't communicate with people like an adult, you have to lawyer up? Over an Internet thread?
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