11.5 inch barrel ar no stock and forward grip but not a NFA?

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rogerme
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11.5 inch barrel ar no stock and forward grip but not a NFA?

Post by rogerme »

Got this trying to figure out the non sbs post with a 17 inch barrel. This place is selling ar "pistols" 11.5 inch barrel and a OL of 27.8" WITH A FORWARD GRIP. You can order them now! The ATF letter is pretty clear if you scroll down to the bottom.

http://www.franklinarmory.com/PRODUCTS_XO-26B.html
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Re: 11.5 inch barrel ar no stock and forward grip but not a

Post by Bendersquint »

rogerme wrote:Got this trying to figure out the non sbs post with a 17 inch barrel. This place is selling ar "pistols" 11.5 inch barrel and a OL of 27.8" WITH A FORWARD GRIP. You can order them now! The ATF letter is pretty clear if you scroll down to the bottom.

http://www.franklinarmory.com/PRODUCTS_XO-26B.html
The letter is invalid for the XO-26B.

It refers to a different model of pistol called the SE-SSP(available elsewhere on the site) with different specifications and therefore doesn't apply.

Lets not even bring up the fact that a ATF opinion letter is only valid to the person addressed and noone else.

If you want a letter that is valid you will need to ask the ATF yourself then it will be in your name.
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Re: 11.5 inch barrel ar no stock and forward grip but not a

Post by rogerme »

I myself agree though I would not chance buying one to begin with. That said if you read this http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2011/1 ... ng-xo-26b/ at least this one has gone through a 01ffl on a 4473. I would like to know how many of these have been sold.
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Re: 11.5 inch barrel ar no stock and forward grip but not a

Post by Bendersquint »

rogerme wrote:I myself agree though I would not chance buying one to begin with. That said if you read this http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2011/1 ... ng-xo-26b/ at least this one has gone through a 01ffl on a 4473. I would like to know how many of these have been sold.
I can transfer a rifle as a pistol, doesn't make it right or legal. Thats my point.

Its all up tot he FFL transferring it to classify and transfer it correctly.
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Re: 11.5 inch barrel ar no stock and forward grip but not a

Post by red tail »

Is it really worth the chance and saving 200 bucks???? And shoot off you cheek?? :?
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Re: 11.5 inch barrel ar no stock and forward grip but not a

Post by rogerme »

Bendersquint wrote:
I can transfer a rifle as a pistol, doesn't make it right or legal. Thats my point.

Its all up tot he FFL transferring it to classify and transfer it correctly.
That's what I am saying if the dealer transfers it because the maker sent a letter saying it was legal are they as guilty as the maker/ buyer?
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Re: 11.5 inch barrel ar no stock and forward grip but not a

Post by Bendersquint »

rogerme wrote:
Bendersquint wrote:
I can transfer a rifle as a pistol, doesn't make it right or legal. Thats my point.

Its all up tot he FFL transferring it to classify and transfer it correctly.
That's what I am saying if the dealer transfers it because the maker sent a letter saying it was legal are they as guilty as the maker/ buyer?
yes they are as guilty if not more because they weren't aware of the regulations and didn't question it. Would be hard to prove to the ATF that they were naive about the laws too.
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Re: 11.5 inch barrel ar no stock and forward grip but not a

Post by rogerme »

Bendersquint wrote:
yes they are as guilty if not more because they weren't aware of the regulations and didn't question it. Would be hard to prove to the ATF that they were naive about the laws too.
Of all the people I have talked to about this you where the FIRST one to also notice the model numbers in the ATF letter did not match.

Now for the big question why has the ATF not snatched these guys FFL yet? They have to know about them. Why let them continue doing it or are they simply trying to let this become something bigger to try to overshadow there recent blunders in gun running?
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Re: 11.5 inch barrel ar no stock and forward grip but not a

Post by doubloon »

They're too busy setting up entrapment schemes on honest dealers.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDtd2jNIwAU MUSAFAR!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8CrOL-ydFMI This is Water DavidW
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Re: 11.5 inch barrel ar no stock and forward grip but not a

Post by franklinarmory »

Hello Silencer Talk.

This is my first post, and I don't mean to ruffle anyone's feathers, but there are a few things I need to mention about the XO-26, XO-26b, and the SE-SSP. All of our XO's ship on SE-SSP frames, so they are 100% consistent with the letter of the law. The XO-26 & XO-26b monikers are CONFIGURATION designations.

Secondly, there is no crime that has been committed, therefore no one is guilty of anything. Given that the 1927A5 Thompson has been in circulation for decades, I really doubt the ATF is suddenly going to reverse their decision. IF the ATF should ever reverse their decision, all an XO owner would need to do is remove the vertical grip and they have a very legal AR pistol. (...which have been sold in this country for decades now.) In case you are wondering, I have confirmed with FTB Chief Spencer that it is legal to transition from "Other" to "Pistol" and back again just as Pistols can be reconfigured into rifles and back.

I met the regional director of the ATF at the Shot Show in January. He stopped by our booth and we exchanged cards. He had no issues with our product. The ATF was in this past Monday doing a routine inspection. The inspector was done on Tuesday, and we passed without violation. We actually were complemented for having all our ATF correspondence in order. If she had found a problem, I'm sure the nice gentlemen in black fatigues would have shown up on Wednesday.

We have sold hundreds of the XOs in about 25 different states. Please don't denigrate Franklin Armory by implying we're doing anything illicit or shady. Every day we operate to the letter of the law.
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Re: 11.5 inch barrel ar no stock and forward grip but not a

Post by twodollarbill »

Bendersquint wrote: Lets not even bring up the fact that a ATF opinion letter is only valid to the person addressed and noone else.
If you want a letter that is valid you will need to ask the ATF yourself then it will be in your name.
I welcome Franklin Armory to the forum.
I would think a letter from the BATF to a manufacturer would cover their customers
and thank you for posting your comments.

On a personal level, when I have made a modification to "firearm" after seeing or reading
about the modification on the net or in print.
I have always requested my own confirmation letter from the BATF, even though the author published his letter.
If my modifications were ever brought into question by the BATF, I would want to rely on my
personal confirmation letter.
I could just see the higher authority saying...."I'm sorry Mr Smith, you are not Mr. Jones"
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Re: 11.5 inch barrel ar no stock and forward grip but not a

Post by Bendersquint »

twodollarbill wrote:
Bendersquint wrote: Lets not even bring up the fact that a ATF opinion letter is only valid to the person addressed and noone else.
If you want a letter that is valid you will need to ask the ATF yourself then it will be in your name.
I welcome Franklin Armory to the forum.
I would think a letter from the BATF to a manufacturer would cover their customers
and thank you for posting your comments.

On a personal level, when I have made a modification to "firearm" after seeing or reading
about the modification on the net or in print.
I have always requested my own confirmation letter from the BATF, even though the author published his letter.
If my modifications were ever brought into question by the BATF, I would want to rely on my
personal confirmation letter.
I could just see the higher authority saying...."I'm sorry Mr Smith, you are not Mr. Jones"
Thats EXACTLY the case, the approval letter is only valid to the person/entity addressed and noone else.

It does not protect customers either, they are generally posted to quell fears or illegal configurations. In order to protect yourself(and still can be revoked) it would have to have your name on it.

Welcome to the forum!
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Re: 11.5 inch barrel ar no stock and forward grip but not a

Post by BISHOP »

I had to look up the 1927A5 and this is what I found.

You may have to zoom in to read it.
Image

In this letter it says to inform purchasers...


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Re: 11.5 inch barrel ar no stock and forward grip but not a

Post by franklinarmory »

Bendersquint wrote:Thats EXACTLY the case, the approval letter is only valid to the person/entity addressed and noone else.

It does not protect customers either, they are generally posted to quell fears or illegal configurations. In order to protect yourself(and still can be revoked) it would have to have your name on it.
Sir, I do believe that other manufacturers should get their own letter before proceeding just for the sake of clarity, and some have. However, to state that Franklin Armory customers are not somehow covered by the letter that defines the exact make, model, and physical characteristics is nonsense!

Even in the case of an individual that copies our configuration, I seriously doubt they would be in jeopardy. Sure, any cop can try to arrest you for something, but it would be thrown out at the first court appearance. The Due Process clause of the 5th amendment and the Equal Protection clause of the 14th amendment pretty well dictate that, since the government gave Franklin Armory authorization, all other legal citizens are free to do the same. For this reason, we posted our letter on our website. We wanted everyone else to have the opportunity to build a similar firearm if they so wish. Sure, we're in the business of selling firearms, but 2A triumphs like this are a benefit to everyone and must be publicized.

Please stop spreading FUD and quit the scare tactics.
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Re: 11.5 inch barrel ar no stock and forward grip but not a

Post by franklinarmory »

BISHOP wrote:I had to look up the 1927A5 and this is what I found.

You may have to zoom in to read it.
Image

In this letter it says to inform purchasers...


BISHOP
Bishop, that letter is awesome. I knew there must have been a letter like that somewhere since the 1927A5 was openly in production for many years. I figured Thompson/Auto Ordnance probably had it stuck in a file somewhere. How in the world were you able to source that so quick?

BTW, we did in fact put many state and federal warnings in our SE-SSP/XO-26 safety manual. (...which is also available as an online PDF.)
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Re: 11.5 inch barrel ar no stock and forward grip but not a

Post by Bendersquint »

franklinarmory wrote: Sir, I do believe that other manufacturers should get their own letter before proceeding just for the sake of clarity, and some have. However, to state that Franklin Armory customers are not somehow covered by the letter that defines the exact make, model, and physical characteristics is nonsense!

Even in the case of an individual that copies our configuration, I seriously doubt they would be in jeopardy. Sure, any cop can try to arrest you for something, but it would be thrown out at the first court appearance. The Due Process clause of the 5th amendment and the Equal Protection clause of the 14th amendment pretty well dictate that, since the government gave Franklin Armory authorization, all other legal citizens are free to do the same. For this reason, we posted our letter on our website. We wanted everyone else to have the opportunity to build a similar firearm if they so wish. Sure, we're in the business of selling firearms, but 2A triumphs like this are a benefit to everyone and must be publicized.

Please stop spreading FUD and quit the scare tactics.
Akins had a similar letter and it didn't protect their customers, they(Akins) were in fact required to give the ATF their sales records so they(ATF) could go after every single owner to send in the spring that made it a MG. So the letter didn't protect them when they(ATF) changed their minds. It is an opinion letter and opinions change all the time. If the ATF didn't want the leave the door open to changing their ever changing minds they would make it a ruling and not an opinion. As you can see opinions are often different and will definitely vary from person to person.

I am glad that you have faith in the system. You are one of the few.

FUD??

Not scare tactics but the truth, if it was valid for everyone anyone could get a copy of the letter based ont he control number but thats just not the case.
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Re: 11.5 inch barrel ar no stock and forward grip but not a

Post by BISHOP »

*** I am NOT being sarcastic ****

franklinarmory Its called Google IMAGE search.
All I did was type in 1927A5 and that was one of the images that was on the first page.

Image search is how I do all my searches unless I'm looking specifically for answers or forum posts ect....


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Re: 11.5 inch barrel ar no stock and forward grip but not a

Post by franklinarmory »

36 years of precedence would indicate they're not in too much of a hurry to change their mind. If they did, God forbid, it could easily be converted to a pistol. The atf would not commence a witch hunt for every buyer. Again, scare tactics and FUD.
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Re: 11.5 inch barrel ar no stock and forward grip but not a

Post by Bendersquint »

franklinarmory wrote:36 years of precedence would indicate they're not in too much of a hurry to change their mind. If they did, God forbid, it could easily be converted to a pistol. The atf would not commence a witch hunt for every buyer. Again, scare tactics and FUD.
There is no such thing as precedence with the ATF.

The ATF did recently intervene with KELTEC about their SU15 pistol, they marketed it with a forward pistol grip and were told that it was illegal, as with one of the magazines that published an article with pictures of it in that configuration and were told it is illegal as well. If they had never ever backed out on an opinion letter or recalled rulings etc then it would be scare tactics but they have already shown in the past that they are entirely willing to do such. Your pistol is one of the few that are easily converted if they ever did change their mind.

So who wants to explain what FUD is, since FA keeps saying it but won't explain?
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Re: 11.5 inch barrel ar no stock and forward grip but not a

Post by yamatitan »

Im guessing this is what hes talking about bender:

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=fudd
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Re: 11.5 inch barrel ar no stock and forward grip but not a

Post by Bendersquint »

yamatitan wrote:Im guessing this is what hes talking about bender:

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=fudd
Thanks for the clarification. Didn't realize I was acting like a casual firearm owner. Based on that definition it says that I am a non-sporting type gun hater, which is funny, my safe contradicts that entirely.
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Re: 11.5 inch barrel ar no stock and forward grip but not a

Post by rogerme »

I am the op for this and it was made as a sort of carry over from a similar thread about the same type of ting with a shotgun. That said my post was in no way to say that the company was doing something illegal BUT that it was pushing or skirting the rules in so far the product in question is being produced under a atf letter saying that it is legal to do but as we know the atf can and does change there mind. Also the same design submitted by different people can yield different responses. Also as stated in the earlier posts the approval letter has a model different then the ones being sold something that makes us non fudd's nervous. Also the fact that the major ar15 companies are NOT making them speaks volumes IMHO.

The fact that you feel the need to post the ATF letter on your site on each page where one of these is sold is reason enough to be aware. Legal sure for now as already stated the folks who sold the Atkins accelerator had a letter saying all is ok to until they did not...
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Re: 11.5 inch barrel ar no stock and forward grip but not a

Post by carlwilkey »

Frankin Armory has a letter saying it's ok to produce their item. For now it's ok. If the ATF changes their mind, then worry about it if it happens. Why worry about it now. That's what they mean by the gloom and doom predictions. My short barreled weapons with front grips are registered as SBR's but they all have stocks too. I'm not a big fan of the "pistol" versions of rifles but I don't knock those people that do like them. I do use some of the pistol versions as they are great hosts for SBR's. The Draco C AK "pistols" make for an easy SBR with the underfolder trunion but not quite as easy as the HK pistol clones or the AR pistols.

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Re: 11.5 inch barrel ar no stock and forward grip but not a

Post by rogerme »

carlwilkey wrote: If the ATF changes their mind, then worry about it if it happens. Why worry about it now.

Carl

Well when your spending over a grand it could make a big difference. I remember when I could not afford to buy all the toys I wanted. Many folks can afford maybe one new firearm a year. If this is the one they choose and the ATF does make a 180 then what? If the idea has so much merit then why are they the only people doing it? Why are all the big producers not offering a similar model? I would be willing to bet there legal team said na lets pass on that...
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Re: 11.5 inch barrel ar no stock and forward grip but not a

Post by carlwilkey »

franklinarmory wrote:36 years of precedence would indicate they're not in too much of a hurry to change their mind. If they did, God forbid, it could easily be converted to a pistol. The atf would not commence a witch hunt for every buyer. Again, scare tactics and FUD.
If ATF does a 180, then take the vertical grip off. It's that simple. Then you can decide to go AOW or SBR. If you do a Form 1, then might as well put a stock on it as they both are $200. No reason to go the AOW route unless you just like that configuration.
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