Full auto mod for .22LR upper?

[mollinst]

Hello at last.

I've been lurking in this forum for a couple of years now - simply trying to absorb knowledge, mostly in the Suppressor threads - and I'm not interested in causing a stir... But... Last year I got my 07 FFL with NFA 02 SOT, and have been experimenting with numerous suppressor concepts. I'm having a blast, (sorry), just trying to get my brain around all of this stuff.

At any rate, I try to torture every prototype I build, sometimes to failure of one component or another, and one of those torturous methods is to to empty a 30 rnd magazine through the can at full auto.

I "built" myself a full auto SBR in .223 for this purpose, and then, some time later, had a chance to pick up a Chiappa .22LR AR upper, and nabbed it thinking I might "kill 2 calibers with one lower". Erroneous concept would be an understatement.

What I'd like to do, if anyone has a method and is willing to share it, is to make the .22LR AR upper select-fire. Or, more correctly, properly alter a lower to achieve this.

My understanding of weapons suppression is getting there, and I'm not a half bad machinist, (for a cretin), but I'm not competent enough in "theoretical" gunsmithing to feel comfortable "devising" a method to achieve the desired result.

Any help or suggestions would be most welcome.

Thanks.

[Bendersquint]

If you were a manufacturer you would know that there is no such thing as a full auto SBR.

The Chiappa DOES indeed run on the appropriate lower.

[mollinst]

If you were a manufacturer you would know that there is no such thing as a full auto SBR.

The Chiappa DOES indeed run on the appropriate lower.

I guess I'm not sure what I'm missing here but, my SBR is select fire, and functions very nicely in automatic. And, though I've gone through all of the licensing hoo-ha with BATFE and NFA, I'm certainly not a "manufacturer" in the big league sense of the word. Just a humble R&D kind of guy trying to broaden my abilities after 45 years in another business.

I know, and respect, your reputation sir, I hope we'll become friends.

[BLAKE2131]

what bender is tryin to say is its either SBR or FA not both just because you have a short barrel on your select fire lower doesnt make it a SBR too its still FA

so FA trumps SBR

[Bendersquint]

If you were a manufacturer you would know that there is no such thing as a full auto SBR.

The Chiappa DOES indeed run on the appropriate lower.

I guess I'm not sure what I'm missing here but, my SBR is select fire, and functions very nicely in automatic. And, though I've gone through all of the licensing hoo-ha with BATFE and NFA, I'm certainly not a "manufacturer" in the big league sense of the word. Just a humble R&D kind of guy trying to broaden my abilities after 45 years in another business.

I know, and respect, your reputation sir, I hope we'll become friends.

What you are missing is that there is no such thing as a select fire short barreled rifle. As a manufacturer you would have known this when you filed your Form2 to register your AR15 lower receiver as a MACHINEGUN.

If you have an Type 07 FFL you are a firearms manufacturer, if you have the Class 02 SOT then you are able to manufacture NFA items. Doesn't matter if you are not a major manufacturer you are still a manufacturer.

Thats where things aren't adding up.

[rogerme]

If you were a manufacturer you would know that there is no such thing as a full auto SBR.

The Chiappa DOES indeed run on the appropriate lower.

I guess I'm not sure what I'm missing here but, my SBR is select fire, and functions very nicely in automatic. And, though I've gone through all of the licensing hoo-ha with BATFE and NFA, I'm certainly not a "manufacturer" in the big league sense of the word. Just a humble R&D kind of guy trying to broaden my abilities after 45 years in another business.

I know, and respect, your reputation sir, I hope we'll become friends.

What he is telling you is a MG can not be a SBR! A SBR is a semi auto as when you get a MG stamp the length is moot. IE mg trumps SBR. There is not SBM ( short barrel MG LOL)..

As for the 22 CMMG stainless kit with a auto trip does a great job ( the best imho ) unless your wanna go belt fed.

[rogerme]

WOW two comments while I was typing.

[Bendersquint]

what bender is tryin to say is its either SBR or FA not both just because you have a short barrel on your select fire lower doesnt make it a SBR too its still FA

so FA trumps SBR

No trumping at all, its either registered as a short barreled rifle or a machinegun.

If it fires more than one round per trigger pull its a machinegun, if its a machinegun it can never be anything but a machinegun, ever.

If its a semi auto AR15 rifle with a shorter than 16" upper it better be registered as a short barrel rifle, it can be converted to a machinegun but can not ever be anything but a machinegun after that time.

[mollinst]

OK, I've got it - yes, it is registered as a machine gun. NFA did want to know the overall length however so, I suppose I assumed that that was an important enough factor that the term, "short barrel", should be in the decription. Legal precission is not the same as mere semantics - my bad.

So, would it be an imposition to ask how to alter/obtain a proper lower for the Chiappa upper I already own?

thanks

[redtazdog]

If the upper you have uses the ciener style 22 kit and you have a FA lower with the sear then all you need is the auto trip.
With a FFL 07/02 you should know these things.
Did someone fart because I smell something strange here.

[66427vette]

Let's all take a minute and welcome the newest undercover agent to the forum.

[Libertarian_Geek]

If I may...

Mollinst, Bendersquint is saying that you don't seem to be what you claim to be based on what you've posted. As tedious, critical and anal as the ATF is (and requires SOTs to be), you should:

1: Know some or all of the things that you're asking about.
or
2: You aren't an NFA 02 SOT dealer.

That calls into question your motives, of which logical conclusions would be:

1: You're working to build an illegal machine gun
2: You're some hatchet job new reporter trying to expose the "evils" of the "gun culture."
3: You're a politician trying to expose the "evils" of the "gun culture."
4: You're a law-enforcement agent attempting to set bait to catch a dumb-ass stupid enough to do #1 on this list.
5: You're just somewhat ignorant, but your story checks out.

Either way... welcome to the forum (and don't build illegal machine guns or do other stupid things).

[mollinst]

"With a FFL 07/02 you should know these things.
Did someone fart because I smell something strange here."


I should? Wow, there wasn't a quiz when I applied for the licensing. I simply told my local ATF rep, and the folks at NFA in VA, that I wanted to research & develop suppressors - the least expensive way to make multiple trials, modifications, and prototypes was to go for the full banana. I'm not a true "gunsmith", as stated above so, there are probably a lot of things I "should" know that I don't fully understand - yet. All I know about this upper, in this circumstance, is that it will not go full auto in a lower with an M-16 auto sear. I was hoping someone would PM me with some advice - not use the board.

"Let's all take a minute and welcome the newest undercover agent to the forum. "

Thanks 'vette... I think. I am not, nor have I ever been a member of the comun... oh that's a different deal... I can understand why some might feel a shill from gov could be lurking around just waiting for someone to do or say the wrong thing but, I assure you, I am NOT that guy. Having said that, I'm also sure that all of the forums are monitored from time to time, even though the bureaucracy has better things to do.

[mollinst]

Libertarian,

Thanks - I do understand, and assure you that I qualify for #5.
I'd be happy to send a scan of my paperwork by e-mail attachment to a trusted member if that would help.

[Libertarian_Geek]

Libertarian,

Thanks - I do understand, and assure you that I qualify for #5.
I'd be happy to send a scan of my paperwork by e-mail attachment to a trusted member if that would help.

Call me LG. I don't need proof of anything(that doesn't directly involve me), this is the interwebs. You could be sitting naked in a bean-bag chair eating Cheetos for all I care. I'm just acting as an interpreter .

[rogerme]

Call me LG. I don't need proof of anything(that doesn't directly involve me), this is the interwebs. You could be sitting naked in a bean-bag chair eating Cheetos for all I care. I'm just acting as an interpreter .

^^^^^ This...

[mollinst]

"You could be sitting naked in a bean-bag chair eating Cheetos for all I..."

Crap! Is my webcam on again?

[dave22]

I think you should call....RED JACKET!



Pow, game changa!

[rogerme]

I think you should call....RED JACKET!

I can not believe I missed that one!!!!

[dvanncvann]

Damn dude! Da terminology police be on yo ass! Don't be callin a magazine a clip an s--t like dat!

[M40A1308M]

What type of machinery do you have access to? And you do know the basics of M16 operation?

[mollinst]

I have a '70's vintage, (when they made them really well), 12 X 36 Jet lathe with chucks and collets, and a 9 X 42 Bridgeport series 1 mill that's almost my age. Both are old, and both are in A++ condition. (That's the machinery - not necessarily me.)

Yes, I am familiar with the M-16's operation, I modified one of my AR's myself with the M-16 fire control components to produce the weapon about which we discussed vernacular vs legal terminology above.

[M40A1308M]

Well you need to make a trip and a anti- bounce weight.

[mollinst]

Well, Thanks but, that's somewhat the problem - while I had plenty of resources to learn about the M-16, every assembly from different manufacturers and for different calibers is, well... Different. I can't merely look at them and say, "Oh, I need a this there, and a that here", my "gunsmithing" skill set is still in the steep part of the learning curve. For example, it only takes one carefully placed TIG welded "bump" to make a Glock fully auto. It's so easy it's stupid but, for many of these actions, it's tough for me to figure it out on my own.

The .22 conversions all seem to differ a bit as well. I took a look at Ciener's (sp?), photos and they look somewhat different than this Chiappa action - the Chiappa has a carrier that loads into the upper housing at a 45 degree angle (?), and the Ciener has a couple of extra parts that are difficult to identify, much less determine placement and installation. I assume these are the two parts you've suggested I need.

I'm the kind of guy that, If I can get my hands on something to study and measure, or even decent drawings with dimensions, I can duplicate it. But I'm not so good yet at looking at something and "divining" what's missing.

[M40A1308M]

Ok here is were I say good luck. As you stated above that you have completed PROTOTYPES and you have a 07\02 with R&d capability well I am at a wonder WHY the Batf gave you a license. And you cannot simply weld a bump and make Glock full auto without being short of being RED-JACKET firearms. But you have said you are limited in your GUNSMITHS ability and WHAT one day you woke up and decided HUH? JAMES BOND has cool toy's I bet I can make those in my basement. I have a very hard time believing that some of this simple stuff eludes you but yet you have prototyped firearms. I have a LARGE shop containing CNC{you know what that stands for I hope} and as I found out it would be very hard to get into that business with out a vast knoledge of the industry. Hell even RED-Jacket knows more than you are letting on to know or actually know. Or I could be wrong and you are wanting the knowledgeable people her to to design it for you so you may profit from it or maybe out laziness.

I am wondering is this shop of your in your house? And if it is how many entrances does it have?And do you have a company name and operating business hours? Just some questions.

I have seen 02\07 shops that are small and dark and really back wooded but they have simple working knowledge of mechanics and defiantly of firearms.And some really cool weaponry has exited those shops nothing as JACKED as adding a TIG weld to a glock! Most that get into R&D have design degrees and mechanic engineering degrees and still would fine it hard to make a prototype but yet not make a simple auto-trip and anti-bouce weight. As I said good luck!