Surefire vs AAC Lawsuit?

Diomed · Post by **Diomed** » Thu Jan 01, 2009 1:37 am

I like Surefire lights. They don't make any cans of interest to me, so I don't actually care about that stuff.

ArevaloSOCOM wrote:I love silencer company drama.

Amen! Better 'n' a soap opera.

Stu · Post by **Stu** » Thu Jan 01, 2009 5:57 am

SilentMike wrote:Stu,

It's off topic, but I've been wondering for a while and I've got to ask. What IS that creature in your avatar? It's creepy as hell, but I really like it.

Fellas, it is from the paranormal section of the 4chanarchive.org website. I saw that and knew I had to have it for my avatar. I have the girl in the chair one that is black and white as my desktop.

Here: http://4chanarchive.org/images/x/104438 ... 690530.jpg

SC-Texas · Post by **SC-Texas** » Thu Jan 01, 2009 10:40 am

In the surefire-AAC lawsuit, aren't the issues:

1. whether anyone looked at the two cans and ID'd the surefire can.

So how many people knew what a surefire bafflestack looked like?

2. whether the AAC can is really quieter than the surefire can

We all know that it is. Surefire cans are notorioulsy loud compared to other cans. Maybe relatively loud is a better description.

3. whether spot welds are stronger than circumferential welds.

I think we all know that a spot weld is not as strong.

rob_s · Post by **rob_s** » Thu Jan 01, 2009 10:47 am

I have no dog in either fight, but I find the differences in the slants on the discussion between here and ar15.com pretty amusing. Two of the most biased groups around discussing an issue is always good for a laugh.

I have to admit, the first time I saw that ad in print I thought "this won't end well".

Doink67 · Post by **Doink67** » Thu Jan 01, 2009 10:55 am

Stu wrote:
SilentMike wrote:Stu,

It's off topic, but I've been wondering for a while and I've got to ask. What IS that creature in your avatar? It's creepy as hell, but I really like it.
Fellas, it is from the paranormal section of the 4chanarchive.org website. I saw that and knew I had to have it for my avatar. I have the girl in the chair one that is black and white as my desktop.

Here: http://4chanarchive.org/images/x/104438 ... 690530.jpg

the entire thread with the girl in the chair is creepy as hell

ArevaloSOCOM · Post by **ArevaloSOCOM** » Thu Jan 01, 2009 1:38 pm

Diomed wrote:I like Surefire lights. They don't make any cans of interest to me, so I don't actually care about that stuff.

ArevaloSOCOM wrote:I love silencer company drama.

Amen! Better 'n' a soap opera.

+1

I like thier lights best over anyone else's.

I'd like to See an episode of "Maury" where Robert is accused of being the "Baby's daddy" and then theirs a huge melee and then when they find out robert's NOT the father, they run off the satge crying.....................that would be great.

ArevaloSOCOM · Post by **ArevaloSOCOM** » Thu Jan 01, 2009 1:41 pm

Stu wrote:
SilentMike wrote:Stu,

It's off topic, but I've been wondering for a while and I've got to ask. What IS that creature in your avatar? It's creepy as hell, but I really like it.
Fellas, it is from the paranormal section of the 4chanarchive.org website. I saw that and knew I had to have it for my avatar. I have the girl in the chair one that is black and white as my desktop.

Here: http://4chanarchive.org/images/x/104438 ... 690530.jpg

HOLY ***************** Sh*t!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I got goosebumbs.

Sigproshooter · Post by **Sigproshooter** » Thu Jan 01, 2009 2:34 pm

ArevaloSOCOM wrote:
Stu wrote:
SilentMike wrote:Stu,

It's off topic, but I've been wondering for a while and I've got to ask. What IS that creature in your avatar? It's creepy as hell, but I really like it.
Fellas, it is from the paranormal section of the 4chanarchive.org website. I saw that and knew I had to have it for my avatar. I have the girl in the chair one that is black and white as my desktop.

Here: http://4chanarchive.org/images/x/104438 ... 690530.jpg

HOLY ***************** Sh*t!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I got goosebumbs.

There were several that gave me goosebumps.

In honor of this year.the year of "hope and change" . I have changed my avatar to reflect my current opinion of this country's direction.

Doink67 · Post by **Doink67** » Thu Jan 01, 2009 3:52 pm

what was your old avatar

RyanB · Post by **RyanB** » Thu Jan 01, 2009 6:09 pm

SC-Texas wrote:In the surefire-AAC lawsuit, aren't the issues:

1. whether anyone looked at the two cans and ID'd the surefire can.

So how many people knew what a surefire bafflestack looked like?

2. whether the AAC can is really quieter than the surefire can

We all know that it is. Surefire cans are notorioulsy loud compared to other cans. Maybe relatively loud is a better description.

3. whether spot welds are stronger than circumferential welds.

I think we all know that a spot weld is not as strong.

It was instantly recognizable as a surefire. Both externally and internally. Well, I suppose the stack looks a little like OPS, in that they have lots of baffles, but the welds on the endcap are a giveaway.

Surefires are relatively loud. They don't pretend to be the quietest either. Their interest is in minimal POI shift. I don't find the noise of the M4FA to be objectionable.

Spot welds have proven themselves in military service over the past two decades. No one cared until someone started advertising fully welded cans.

AAC makes god cans. So does Surefire. I own a Surefire, but had an AAC ben available I might well have gotten one.

Post by **silencertalk** » Thu Jan 01, 2009 6:55 pm

It does not even matter if the can was recognizable as Surefire aside from that telling the judge 'we are a party related to this issue.' So for example, it allows the rest of the case to be considered but is not a possible violation in itself.

Kevin/AAC · Post by **Kevin/AAC** » Thu Jan 01, 2009 8:39 pm

RyanB wrote:
SC-Texas wrote:In the surefire-AAC lawsuit, aren't the issues:

1. whether anyone looked at the two cans and ID'd the surefire can.

So how many people knew what a surefire bafflestack looked like?

2. whether the AAC can is really quieter than the surefire can

We all know that it is. Surefire cans are notorioulsy loud compared to other cans. Maybe relatively loud is a better description.

3. whether spot welds are stronger than circumferential welds.

I think we all know that a spot weld is not as strong.
It was instantly recognizable as a surefire. Both externally and internally. Well, I suppose the stack looks a little like OPS, in that they have lots of baffles, but the welds on the endcap are a giveaway.

Surefires are relatively loud. They don't pretend to be the quietest either. Their interest is in minimal POI shift. I don't find the noise of the M4FA to be objectionable.

Spot welds have proven themselves in military service over the past two decades. No one cared until someone started advertising fully welded cans.

AAC makes god cans. So does Surefire. I own a Surefire, but had an AAC ben available I might well have gotten one.

That is not exactly true.

It is a copy of the OPS baffle stack. I am pretty certain that not many people alive could tell a difference between the two stacks. As far as the outside weld...we used to do it the exact same way SF is doing it now. Visual there is no difference.

Spot welding worked for the military for a number of years. We only invented our process after being involved in a military test where spot welding did not suffice. New, shorter barrel lengths and more demanding firing schedules have changed military needs...so, we developed better processes. It is not marketing, but it makes marketing easier.

RyanB · Post by **RyanB** » Thu Jan 01, 2009 11:41 pm

What else has a similar baffle stack?

kalikraven · Post by **kalikraven** » Fri Jan 02, 2009 7:50 am

The Ops Inc cans have a VERY simular baffle stack. They are a bunch of thin baffles with lots of porting. (IIRC)

noiseless · Post by **noiseless** » Fri Jan 02, 2009 8:10 am

Was it not the newer Surefire attachment method that was "INSPIRED" by the M4-2000/07?

Surefire is the most innovative company when it comes to their "Illumination Tools", but not so with their Suppressors.

Personally, I thought the ad was effective . . . and evidently so does Surefire for that matter.

Doink67 · Post by **Doink67** » Fri Jan 02, 2009 10:58 am

kalikraven wrote:The Ops Inc cans have a VERY simular baffle stack. They are a bunch of thin baffles with lots of porting. (IIRC)

read Kevin's post above, Surefire's is a copy of the Ops

ArevaloSOCOM · Post by **ArevaloSOCOM** » Fri Jan 02, 2009 11:13 am

Doink67 wrote:
kalikraven wrote:The Ops Inc cans have a VERY simular baffle stack. They are a bunch of thin baffles with lots of porting. (IIRC)
read Kevin's post above, Surefire's is a copy of the Ops

anyone have "the pic" where they are side by side X-ray'd.

TIA.

chrismartin · Post by **chrismartin** » Fri Jan 02, 2009 11:19 am

ArevaloSOCOM wrote:
Doink67 wrote:
kalikraven wrote:The Ops Inc cans have a VERY simular baffle stack. They are a bunch of thin baffles with lots of porting. (IIRC)
read Kevin's post above, Surefire's is a copy of the Ops
anyone have "the pic" where they are side by side X-ray'd.

TIA.

SC-Texas · Post by **SC-Texas** » Fri Jan 02, 2009 2:50 pm

SNAP!

Kevin/AAC · Post by **Kevin/AAC** » Fri Jan 02, 2009 4:03 pm

I think those pics pretty much sum it up. BTW- 7.62mm versions are even closer to being a perfect match.

scottryan · Post by **scottryan** » Fri Jan 02, 2009 5:28 pm

Surefire lies about the M4 firing schedule/barrel robustness issue.

They have no credibility.

rkh · Post by **rkh** » Fri Jan 02, 2009 5:36 pm

What minimum contacts does AAC have with California sufficient to establish California Jurisdiction?

Selectedmarksman · Post by **Selectedmarksman** » Fri Jan 02, 2009 10:24 pm

I will read what I can find about Surefire's formal complaint, but if even half of what I've read so far is true I can say this: I will never buy another Surefire product. I don't support this kind of bullying.

EDIT: Ok, yeah, I'm never buying a Surefire product from now on.

stevejobs · Post by **stevejobs** » Sat Jan 03, 2009 12:16 am

Surefire does make good weapon lights. It's just too bad they have to act like 4th graders.

Kevin/AAC · Post by **Kevin/AAC** » Sat Jan 03, 2009 9:26 am

They have a lot of smart guys in their light dept.